a question I have that you can help me with.

I thought about this on the way home.
I hope you folks can help me with it.

Where does it say in christianty/jewish “to thy own self be true” and is this a mortal sin or not?

To thy own self be true is from Ancient Greece; it is no sin to be true to yourself. Sin is sin is sin. The greatest sin anyone can commit is turning his/her back on God. :smiley:

the greatest sin you can commit in the biblical point of view is to compare gods work to satans.

That’s blasphemy, which is the unforgivable sin. But that no longer applies because if one turns his back on God, what greater terror can fall on a person than to be cast into the lake of fire, under God’s holy wrath? A person can blaspheme the Holy Spirit while a non believer, but still believe on Jesus Christ and be redeemed. When Jesus died all sin was taken care of; The only unforgiveable sin is the rejection of Jesus Christ as savior. :slight_smile:

blu, that’s a direct quote from shakespear’s hamlet and i’m pretty sure billy made that one up. as for it being a mortal sin, then yes, but ‘yourself’ needs to be clarifed; in the jeudo-christian concept of self, the root of the sould is fundamentally apart of god. denying god is denying yourself – which is definetly the greatest sin.

aside from my question on the source, this question is also tied-in to another aspect of religion.

If you lie to yourself and make yourself belive you are sorry for a sin and then ask for forgiveness You are not forgiven because in fact you are not sorry for it.

Or you will do things like going to church because youve lied to yourself and actually belive you are religious.

So how do you divide the human Mind and soul? Mind lies to the soul? But the mind is divided into concious and unconcious. Does unconcious thoughts count when it comes to religion? Doesnt the idea of unoncious thoughts go against the idea of free will?

I like that question and the insight that follows! Well, the answer isn’t so difficult if you see it from God’s perspective. If you read Hebrews 4: 12, 13, “For the Word of God (Bible) is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intents of the heart. And before Him no creature no creature is hidden, but all are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.” Therefore, if you are lying, the only one you are fooling is yourself; and that is a terrible thing to do to onself.(RSV)

To answer the free will issue; I have to think on that one, if fact I in the process of writing a paper for an online site regarding free will and morality. Give me until 2 Sept, I should have an answer by then. Thanks for your patience ahead of time.

I am a man. I am driven by my learned behavior and instinct. Yet Psychology says that hidden amoung my motivators(+ & -) These are based from my development. I have concious and unconcious thoughts.

If my Religion is say chatholic. My unconcious need for sex is viewed as lust by the concious mind. Thus I have to appologize for it since it is viewed as a sin. But since my unconcious mind is not sorry for this need since it thinks I need it thus creating a circle of sin.

before you finish your free will statement i want you to hear this

I personally do not belive in free will in full degree. I have the ability to dream precog. I will dream something, a tedious incident, nothing striking. I will wake and then go back to sleep. Then a year later after significant change I will have a strong sense of DejaVu And then i will remember me having dreamed of the incident.

Example: Dreaming i am playing a computer/video game and being annoyed/confused/frustrated But doing so in a house completly unfamiliar to me. Then two years later I move into that house and the furnature is placed exactly so and then I’ll play the game.

Now I can not do this at will, But it happens. My mother and father had strong sense’s of dejavu. SO if a year prior I dream of an incident and put it in the back fo my mind. You could say I unconciously Fullfill the dream. BUT i do not have full control, Especially in younger years. I at first only see the house as it is(exteriors are never part of them for some reason) I only have seen what it will/could look like. nor did i have control over where exactly furniture is placed, or if i have that furniture.

Free will docterines have no room for premanition except for confusion of the decision.

Ok. If I may BluTGI, I will answer you last reply in two parts. First, all sin is conscious, the scripture never mentions anything concerning unconscious sin; it is deliberate act. One thing we all must remember, that as humans have a bend for evil, we are sinners by nature and practice. Secondly, the issue of Free will and determinisn, I stand as a compatablist. There are certain actions we carry out that are determined, others we do exercise our own volition. I will go into more detail in my next reply which should be in about an hour. :smiley:

Now for my reply to you free will/determinist dream, if I may call it that. First, dreams can have a certain amount of influence on our lives; I believe that is how Rene Descartes, discovered the idea of “cogito ergo sum,” in a dream. I believe much of our deterministic posture is derived from experiences as a child, which would fall in line with Locke’s “tabula rasa” our knowledge is gained by senseory imput through out our maturing years, and continues to influence our thinking. There is however the unseen, ie Plato’s theory of forms. I also believe that people are born with innate knowledge. We know about beauty, love and justice, but they not empirical by nature; For example, I grew up in a house that was designed by my father who loved symetry; every room had precise layouts and measurements; my mother laid out the rooms in different and I must say tasteful colors. Now that definitely had an influence on my thinking, but I was not molded to think that way because I remember struggling with my own ideas. My house doesn’t reflect the influence of my parents; here I exercised free will. Of course somebody could say, but that was pre-determined, because I am by nature an independent thinker. I believe in my case, that there was a bit of mix. In the case of your scenario is purely deterministic. It would seem that you simply followed the course of the dream without reflecting on the memory and the present situation and attempting to alter it, of course that could be problematic. Ultimately, I base my belief of free will and determinism on scripture. Both sides are represented in the Bible, and with our exercise of free will comes with it responsibility for our actions. I know this doesn’t settle the matter, but this is how I currently view the issue. :astonished:

I would like to clarify on the lust example. Sin IS a conscious act. It is natural to ahve desires towards women or men (depending) and to feel “hot” or whatever. Sin comes in when you ACT on those desired. Lusting is the dwelling on that feeling and fantasising or whatever because of it. Sin always involves a choice. Simply feeling lustful is not a sin. I know i feel awefully lustful sometimes when I go to the beach. There are some hot girls there! :laughing: but I do my best to not dwell on those thoughts.

Actually the word for lust in New Testament Greek has a good side and a bad side. I’m a little rusty, but I remember epithumia and hedone are the words for lust that is equated with sinful desires. Jesus desired to be with his disciples, this is the good side; but for the life of me I can’t remember the Greek equivalent.
The problem with men lusting, is something Jesus addressed specifically in Matthew 5:28. The man’s mind is so graphic, that as far God is concerned he has already committed adultery. For a man not to lust after an attractive woman is a difficult task; it would’ve been easier if sex hadn’t been perverted so badly. The best way to avoid temptation is to memorize verses in the Bible. It helps me, also remember even when we sin God is ready to forgive if we confess it. (1John 1:7-10)

right, i agree with you. I’m pretty sure you weren’t trying to counter what I said, but yeah, that sounds right. So long as you don’t give in to the temptation of entertaining those images (or rather letting them entertain you :laughing: ) you ought to be fine sin-wise.

Qxtvbzr, you are right, I was just elaborating. Sorry for the delay, I was busy.







Type with all caps.

Rafajafar. One can enter a dialogue without being baised as long as one recognizes they exist. You already know that in any philosophical discussion all arguments must be impassionate. When one enters the philosophical arena one engages in a rational discourse, where emotions have no involvement. The challenge of philosophy is to be objective and unbiased in the dialogue. I have participated in several philosophical discussions, those who attempt to be passionate often become less rational and ultimately lose their audience.


I’m sorry you don’t like me or enjoy my style. Tough shit. Get an account.

You haven’t read any of my posts if you are insinuating that I allow personal biases interfere with my arguments. In fact, often times I’m disgusted by what I feel obligated to say. That is life, it’s not always pretty.

I generally attempt to expose other’s for their irrationalities and emotions. What’s the best way to do this? Make them passionate. How do you do that? You anger them.

P.S.: I have no idea what you were intending by the last post…but there’s no excuse for typing in all caps.

So the greatest sin is not to believe in God. We who do not believe in God shall be sent to hell where we will burn forever in fire and evil, all our bad emotions shall be repeated over and over again, just because we dont believe in God. Seems a bit tight, this God of yours is a wanker. What gives him the right to send us to hell, who put him in charge and what is the purpose of this rule, the rule that if you dont believe in God you will be sent to hell? What a stupid rule, as long as we follow the other rules then we are ok. All of you religious people are fucking sellfish, you only follow the rules because God tells you to, most of you would kill if he asked you to and all because if you didnt he would send you to hell. Thats sellfish, everything you do is just so you can go to heaven, you sellfish bastards. At least what I do is because I believe its right. God realy is a nasty peace of work, If he is so great then why cant he just say look im here this is me God, believe in me and you can come on up to heaven. Then you will say in a moany whiney voice " But we must have faith God!" well i ask you this : what the fuck is the point in faith, if he loves us so much then why dosnt he fucking prove his existence so he dosnt have to keep sending us to hell. Ill tell you why, because hes either non existent or hes a bloody wanker. Im not sure which ones true but im sure ill be sent to hell for which ever i believe. Its like saying hey that person dosnt like me so i think ill thumo him one or hey that person is ignoring me i think ill go thump him. Thats not very nice is it.