A set of questions from a theist to an atheist

Hey, just thought I would make my first post a memorable one and rattle off something interesting. Here are some questions leveled from a viewpoint of moralistic theism towards amoralistic atheism. Before reading it, keep in mind that when I chide whoever first wrote the questions for being ambiguous or poorly phrased, I’m not trying to attack people who might hold the opinions themselves. I’m actually technically an agnostic, but as I think that the divine existing is less likely than it not, I think for the purposes of the questionare, I’m effectively an atheist. (As a note, I yoinked the questions from http://headdoctor.informe.com/index.php.)

1. “If all of life is meaningless, and ultimately absurd , why bother to march straight forward, why stand in the queue as though life as a whole makes sense?” —Francis Schaeffer, The God Who Is There

To say that there is no meaning but the meaning we create for ourselves is not the same as saying that there is no meaning at all. There is meaning in my life in terms of what I myself have chosen to give meaning. That the meaning is not universal does not lessen its worth or value to me.

2. If everyone completely passes out of existence when they die, what ultimate meaning has life? Even if a man’s life is important because of his influence on others or by his effect on the course of history, of what ultimate significance is that if there is no immortality and all other lives, events, and even history itself is ultimately meaningless?

The first part of the question is essentially a rehash of the first question. My life ultimately has only the meaning I give to it (and to others the meaning that they give to it). That the meanings will eventually be lost entirely does not lessen them. The second part of the question is deceptive in that “ultimately” is a situation that is ill defined. If by “ultimately,” they mean at the heat death of the universe, I would say that (assuming that heat death takes place, as opposed to a big crunch) that there will be no one left to ascribe meaning, and there there will be none. That being said, I’m not sure why this should be significant to me.

3. Suppose the universe had never existed. Apart form God, what ultimate difference would that make?

The difference would be exactly the sum of all things that have do and will exist in the history of the universe from beginning to end. Again, the word “ultimately” has a nebulous meaning here. I’m not sure how to interpret it, but even if they mean a difference at the heat death of the universe (again, assuming that it happens), the universe would be quite different. Quantum physics tells us that information cannot ever be lost, so it follows that the entire history of the universe will be encoded in the decaying particles that used to be you, me and everything else. Whether or not there is meaning to be ascribed to it, it’s quite a bit of “ultimate difference.”

4. In a universe without God or immortality, how is mankind ultimately different from a swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs?

“Ultimately.” I’m really getting to dislike that word. In any event, it’s not the only ill defined word here. “Different” is difficult to interpret as well. I think I can answer the question by posing a counter question. If you considered a pig or mosquito that had a soul, how would it ultimately be any different than a human being? I think that when the answer becomes apparent fairly quickly: “Simply because you make one aspect of a creature more like that of another (here, saying that a human, like a mosquito or pig, has no soul) does not mean that the first creature becomes indistinguishable from the second.”

5. What viable basis exists for justice or law if man is nothing but a sophisticated, programmed machine?

We enjoy living in a world which has rules that protect our wellbeing. Upholding these rules in relation to others supports a system of rules which does this. Furthermore, we are an instinctually empathic species. We (on the whole, not universally) prefer less suffering as opposed to more.

6. Why does research, discovery, diplomacy, art, music, sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, or affectionate and caring relationships mean anything if it all ultimately comes to naught anyway?

This is remarkably similar to questions 1 and 2. I’ve already explained that meaning can be personal as opposed to universal, but there’s a bit more to add. This question is based on the assumption that there must be meaning. I see nothing that indicates that meaning must be present. I would go so far that it is only possible for there to be meaning if there is someone there to create it. The question also uses the phrase “coming to naught.” This implies that the underlying philosophy is one that looks for definition of meaning not in the action of research, discovery, love, etc., but the final outcome. While it’s a person’s own prerogative as to how they ascribe meaning in their own lives, I feel that this is wasting much of what can be taken from the things mentioned. Again, “ultimately” is used without a clear meaning.

7.Without absolute morals, what ultimate difference is there between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham?

This one is a rehash of the first question, the fourth and the fifth. To say that neither Saddam Hussein nor Billy Graham are subject to a set of universal laws is not to say that they are ethically equal, even in terms of the arbitrary ethics imposed by men (to say nothing of the other, more mundane differences). The underlying question here is “Without ultimate good and ultimate evil, how do we know the difference between right and wrong?” I would answer that while there is no ultimate difference between right and wrong, there are rules that make for a society we tend to find more amicable. The rule “You can’t kill” might take away from us the ability to kill without consequence (whatever our motivations), but it also protects us from being killed. Because we don’t want to be killed, we accept the rule. Moreover, being empathic creatures, we enjoy the benefits of people that we care for not being killed. No universal right or wrong is necessary for rules that create an environment that we prefer to others. “Ultimately.”

8. If there is no immortality, why shouldn’t all things be permitted?(Dostoyevsky)

This question is identical to others answered so far in all but semantics.

9. If morality is only a relative social construct, on what basis could or should anyone ever move to interfere with cultures that practice apartheid, female circumcision, cannibalism, or ethnic cleansing?

This is slightly different from the last two questions. I’ve explained laws that function without the necessity of morality, and this asks how we can justify interference with other cultures’ (and implicitly, their laws) without morality. Firstly this forgets that without morality, justification is unnecessary. Secondly, it overlooks the empathic nature I’ve mentioned a number of times. We as a species empathize with others. We wish to allay suffering in others, as we hope that others would allay suffering in ourselves. While the selfish man argument is easy to make, I think it is undeniable that we instinctually feel for others that suffer.

10. If there is no God, on what basis is there any meaning or hope for fairness, comfort, or better times?

This is answered well by preceding speculations on the basis for law. It’s not really different from… about half the other questions asked.

11. Without a personal Creator-God, how are you anything other than the coincidental, purposeless miscarriage of nature, spinning round and round on a lonely planet in the blackness of space for just a little while before you and all memory of your futile, pointless, meaningless life finally blinks out forever in the endless darkness?

This is an unabashed appeal to consequences. “If there is no meaning, then why is everything not horrible and sucky and bad?” I’ve already said that I feel we are able to make our own meaning. That being said, even if I’m wrong, so what? My ego isn’t so big that I feel the universe needs to cater to me in such a way that my existence leaves a massive signature across the sky. If I die and no one remembers me, that’s ok. It’s not the end of the world. And even if it is the end of the world, that’s ok too. The universe is very big while we are very small, and I am able to be happy even realizing this. Have a sense of perspective.

Wow, amazing that one question can be phrased eleven different ways.

You might like to know, two useful tools I find in answering these stupid questions are the Anthropic Cosmological Principle and a certain theory of morality.

The first is useful in answering questions of meaning, for example:

“Why do we exist?”
“Because if we didn’t exist we wouldn’t know that we don’t exist.”

It can also be used to explain beauty or pattern, for example:

“If everything happened by chance, why is it that the world is so beautifully fit for us to live in?”

“Because if it wasn’t fit we wouldn’t be able to see it. That is, a being can only observe a universe in which it exists, and thus only a universe that is configured in such a fashion that it gives way to the being’s existence”

The second tool, or principle, is that of the Golden Rule of morality and social contract “do unto others as you would have done unto you”. Or something like that. If you assume that “doing unto others as you would have done unto you” actually encourages others to do unto you as they would have done unto them, and that, similarly, that doing unto others as you would not have done unto you influences them to do unto you as they would not have done unto themselves, then morality becomes quite pragmatically simple. For example:

“Why shouldn’t I steal, if there is no god to punish me?”
“Because stealing increases the likelyhood of three things: One, that you’ll get caught and punished by others; Two, that you’ll steal again and the second time be caught and punished; Three, that others will steal from you.”

See how it all fits together?

[quote=“Draque”]

1. “If all of life is meaningless, and ultimately absurd , why bother to march straight forward, why stand in the queue as though life as a whole makes sense?” —Francis Schaeffer, The God Who Is There

If all life is meaningless, and ultimately absurb, then why bother indeed.
The question is then without a supernatural, other-wordly. transcendant existence, need life be absurd?

The ultimate meaning of a man’s life is dictated by the nature of man.
In the words of a thiest, man is designed in the image of God. Easily agreed then, this is a fairly accurate description of man and henceit is man’s nature to create, to have dominion, to give value to his world through his creative impulses.

Nihilism would give the value of meaninglessness tobiography and history.
Perhaps by living in the here and now, by placing one’s priorities in the only world that is experienced by man, life as we experience it may become ultimately meaningful and valued, once the god of the afterlife too passes through the stage of world history.

After all, by placing ultimate value to unknowable life-beyond, what a theist is often doing is conversely devaluing this life on this world, and conceiving it as something of little value-something that must be atoned for, and, in the words of Jesus, even hated.

For the theist, “those that love life, will lose it, and those who hate life will be given life eternal’”.

The question then ibecomes whether the the timeless, unchanging unified immutable lfie of eternity has anything to do with the paradoxical, struggling, striving, suffering, ever-changing life that is the only life that we really know.

Perhaps by rejecting God, what we really are rejecting is the source of the nihilism and meaningless that has been invested in our life in the first place.

but that religion teaches it, there is no reason to think that our life on this world is meaningless and nihistic in the first place. Once we place real value on this life, it becomes valued. It is not really meaningless at all.

As creators, it is within our power to create value in the only life we know.

I’m still stumbling over how an afterlife is “necessary” to have meaning in this life.

Can’t our days have joy and sorrow without thought to the future? Are we not free to feel, think, experience, love, hate, etc. on a daily basis? When you pluck a flower and smell it, and the scent is sweet in your nostrils and you smile, are you smiling because somehow the enjoyment of this moment is dictated by the fact that some decades from now when you die you will go to one place or another? Or are you simply enjoying a day in the spring =)

What of cultures / religions with no concept of ‘afterlife’ ?
Are their lives meaningless? Do they not toil, suffer, struggle, love and hate, and produce beautiful things, leave their legacies and traditions behind them, for their children?

Quite honestly, I’m tired of this question.
It is because the asker and the answerer have different definitions for the word “meaning.”

Do I have ‘meaning’ in the great cosmic expanse, that my living or dying matters to the stars far beyond our galaxy? If I do, its very, very little.

Do I have ‘meaning’ to my husband and children, that my living or dying matters to them and to their lives? I would believe yes.

So if you, from the point of view of the “Great Universe” are asking one single man or woman if their life has meaning, perhaps they will say “No, I am insignificant, a spoke in the wheel.” What does it matter? Do we need “meaning?” Creatures without spoken language, consider the ants or the bees or the butterfly - do they not live and die, breed, evolve, and leave traces of themselves after death, generation after generation? Do you think they care if they have meaning? Nature merely IS, and we are a part of nature. I think the idea of ‘meaning’ is a label we, man, has created to try and give ourselves significance in the cosmic order.

It does not matter what name we give to it, there is a higher consciousness and a higher order of reality, which most humans are far away from, mentally. They try to get closer to this upper consciousness during inner spiritual journey, as they strive towards higher beings in higher dimensions.