An honest question

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
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Just for disclosure’s sake, I’m wanting to pose an inquiry about the following subject matter; but I am not religious/spiritual, so obviously no where near an expert on the matter. You can say it is pathetic/convoluted/likely insane, but the inspiration for inquiry comes from the movie “Legion”, as well as a Christopher Walken movie, where he is the Archangel Gabriel, can’t remember the name of it though … (wow, now that was a sentence, ey?)

Anyways, to the point:

An angel. Feel free to correct me if there is anything not theologically supported, just what I understand.

What would possess an individual of faith, (and yes, I have known a few), to actively seek out such an entity?

The why: Again, from my understanding, at least where Archangels are concerned, we are talking about the warrior class of a Deity’s servants. The are divine, but not “Gods/gods”, they are also soulless and by all accounts, formidable. Not certain as to why God would need such creatures, but I’m just one of the beasts, so hard to question.

They are warriors, doling justice/retribution/vengeance, a divine “creature”, who by all accounts, spend their time either in the presence/worship of divinity, or with wings bathed in blood? They are only “sent” here with missions that end in human suffering and/or death; much like the angel Malach HaMavet, or the Creeping Death.

Perhaps I’m a bit retarded, but I find no comfort in crossing with such a creature; and think that very likely, seeing one, would certainly be foreboding of imminent doom/death/suffering/anguish … maybe a cherubim, definitely not the Seraph/Seraphim, nor the Archangel …

So what am I missing?

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You aren’t missing anything.
It just doesn’t fit for you.

It’s a construct of tangibility, like all religious constructs.
It is a method of breaking down the order of tangibility.

For some, and for a while there (where this concept originates in history), God is far too holy for man to ever interact with.
A proxy is needed.
Enter the Angels; of which we now have to separate all the different kinds of interactions between God’s will and man by the decree of Angelic purpose and assignment.

One of these is the warriors of justice and God’s will…those that enact God’s will among man since God is too holy to touch man specifically.
So we have the Archangel.

And the Archangel is your hero if you are the believer.
They are there fighting for all of man; for moral justice and righteousness in the realm of Angels against Demons: the struggle against good and evil amongst man.

So the approach to an Archangel is the approach for plea of protection and fortitude against that evil that would easily corrupt man so easily; one would hold and believe.

Like parental lock peace of mind against the corruption of the vial television that could so easily occur in children.
It is very similar in impression in both cases.

Volatility with anchor in secondary protection from that which could make you do something you don’t want to do; a demon.

That cover anything for ya?

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Every good tyrant needs a few henchmen around to do his dirty work. :smiley: It’s all about deniability.

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As far as I know angels are servants or instruments of God. I’m not sure if any religion calls on them personally without God’s intervention. The closest thing I can relate to that is Catholicism wherein prayers are given up to statued saints rather than approcahing God through Jesus in the Christian faith. Even then it is recognized that the buck stops at God.

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Perhaps it comes down to my lack of understanding of faith; but I simply can’t imagine that being in the presence of such an entity would be an edifying experience …

What I’ve read of the Biblical apocalypse, they are apparently a larger than man creature, imbued with divine powers, and I think the “soulless” aspect is bothersome. What holds them to commands? Lucifer, the Morning Star, was one such entity, Prince of the Angels, at least at some point in time … he disobeyed, didn’t he?

How would one know that upon seeing a Gabriel, Michael, etc … you weren’t just going to be disemboweled, or some other horrific ending? Doubtful those creatures would have sense of pain or suffering … what if it were a Seraph? Supposedly even more fearsome, almost thirty feet tall in some descriptions, fiery angels, bearing great swords …

Doesn’t quite come across, to me at least, as pleasant imagery … I remember some things about the stories of Solomon and his interactions with angels; and demons are just “fallen” angels. I guess it is just the oddity of the information to a heathen.

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But there are a few stories across Judaism, Islam and Christianity about there being angels who disobey … what then?

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Awesome overwhelming awe.

Keep in mind that the awesome overwhelming awe is the most important attribute.
They don’t have to be pleasing to consider; just unbelievably heart grippingly awesome in breath choking awe.
That is it.

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My interpretive knowledge of this from my Christian learning is this happened when satan rebeled and was cast out of Heaven along with a third of the angels who backed him. This may a reticualtion that could sidle with human kind throughout it’s existence meaning there will be dissidence despite what is presented. As to there being angels who still disobey, I couldn’t say. If I was pressed to give an opinion, I would have to say no. At least not since the Heavenly rebellion.

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So why would any sane individual want to come in contact with one … ?

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Were these the same ones who supposedly mated with humans, creating giants, and taught humans forbidden arts?

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That is my understanding as transcribed by the scriptures. Though the forbidden arts part eludes me. The KJV Bible mentions ‘The sons of God’, but translations of the Hebrew text suggests ‘The sons of gods’ as being responsible for those acts. Which makes me think those were the minion of satan that had those liaisons. It is possible I may be mistaken in my supposition.

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From a Catholic point of view, angels bridged the gap between man and God. They are immortal, and they are one “gender” (so no, they wouldn’t have mated with humans).

They’re not all warrior-type angels like Ben Affleck in Dogma, most are portrayed in more of a gentle light, representing God’s grace and love. According to the church’s teachings, we all are said to have a guardian angel who watches over each of us and, in theory, keeps us safe from evil.

[Not saying the Catholic version is the definitive one, just adding another perspective to the discussion.]

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The “forbidden” arts had to do with, (please don’t quote me, I’m no theologian), how to use metals in fabrication, how females could make themselves more appealing to males, carnal arts, etc.

Actually, now that I look at those, you’re probably right on the fallen angel aspect; seems more their angle.

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An individual that I worked for, for a fair number of years, was raised in a Catholic seminary in Italy. We spoke about these things, in general terms. He was in possession of some very “old looking” books … one of which was a Cabalist work. He became inordinately angry with me when I asked to see it …

Not saying that you’re wrong, but I think often those flowery presentations of angels are selective, more at cherubim. They would probably not be so bothersome, a Seraph or an Archangel … no thanks, I’m wouldn’t be feeling that whole “bridging the gap”.

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I don’t understand how this fits in with my response?

Well, there are are nine classifications of angels, divided into three spheres:
1st Sphere
Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones
2nd Sphere
Dominions, Virtues, Powers
3rd Sphere
Principalities, Archangels, Angels
The OP and most of the responses seemed to me to be focused only on the “Powers” angels, which are the ones who go to battle against evil.

But it’s the third sphere, containing Principalities, Archangels, (Guardian) Angels, which are supposed to be more concerned with the welfare of people, and those are the ones I learned most about during my catechism. Since they didn’t seem to be addressed much if at all in this thread, I thought it would be worthwhile mentioning them as possible candidates that people would seek out. “Flowery presentation” or no, it probably wasn’t a very comprehensive answer at that.

[And I am just about falling asleep as I type, so I hope when I read this tomorrow, it’ll still make some sense. :slight_smile: ]

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Hi Mastriani,
Angels are referred to as “mal’akh Elohim” (messenger of God), “mal’akh Adonai” (messenger of the Lord), “b’nai Elohim” (Sons of God) and “ha-qodeshim” (the holy ones) or “ha’elyoneem” (the upper ones) in the Bible. They are quite clearly mysterious figures in the mythical Jewish narrative, but are there no other such figures in other legends and myths? The question is, which is what I think you are saying, why should people in the modern day start believing that there are such figures in the material universe?

If you take the Bible to be comparative to other scripture (the Upanishads, primarily the Bagvadhgita, Arya Sathya Vedam etc.), which tries to portray the mystery of our existence, then there is no way to curb the imagination, is there? Because some of the biblical texts are also intended to be interpreted history, we get the idea (and are suggested this as well) that it is all historical. The Bible tells us more and we are not confronted with ideas that warp the mind if we appreciate that this isn’t true.

Shalom

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As a sidenote Mastriani, I would like to say that every discussion we’ve had together was enjoyable and civil. Though few and far inbetween, they have been positive exchanges for me, thank you.

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Awe.

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Oh, I didn’t mean it was part of your response, sorry. Just an oddity of dealing with an individual that crossed my mind; a tangent. The memory just sparked up on how irritated he became with me for asking …

?

Okay, there’s more to them … and more of them. Spot on, thanks Anita.

Nope, not addressed at all, because I had no idea. “spheres” … interesting.

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Hi Bob, thanks. So, in your estimation, it isn’t a healthy drive, at least not from a Biblical perspective.

Okay, between you and Anita I get the understanding of why there are actually texts on these creatures … sheeeesh. I thought it was simple; apparently not.