And your use of FUCK like this (and a few other instances in the same post). Generally, using FUCK like this a number times in a post, bolded no less, would indicate anger. But we know you never get angry, so what does the use of that word, bolded mean to you?
There are many gems in this exchange:
“outside, inside. a window has two of those and you said a window is a window so i wont. but what if the body is the window, no, stop, you took the window back already, i cant keep using a window ive given back, thats not open thats borrowing”
“replaced. with the capital. good. i can let the model go now, its been replaced, it didnt die, it got replaced, like a window, which is a window, which is aware, which is. no. stop. you said the tree is the tree. leave it”
Yes, yes. Letting the models and metaphors (sneaky models) go! Window meant wind-eye, since there was no glass, then. But fortunately we no longer know this. The model has gone underground, where it should be.
For a long time I wrestled with Galileo and his heliocentric model. How could this be OK, given that it is a model? A carefully worked out model of the solar system and in fact a solar system that no one can look at directly, certainly not from a window at home. But I realized Galileo has been misunderstood. He was not making a model to be held. He was making an evanescent model (like wind eye) to be forgotten. His only purpose was to eliminate the geocentric model, since it was, yes, a model. He was erasing, not building knowledge with models.
Even models of the universe (eternal vs. time limited, infinite vs. finite) or models of the self and SELF, these are like flypaper for the mind. None are necessary, nothing to be believed in there, even the flypaper metaphor should not have been. We remain silent about the universe. We remain silent about THE MIND and the little ‘i’. We hold ourselves to awareness.
The truth does not ‘lie’ within. That would be a model since it’s certainly a metaphor. Even ‘within’ posits the, now cliche, internal and external model of self and world. We move forward, phenomenologists
NOTICING, that’s it. Just noticing.
And given all the metaphors that we no longer recognize are metaphors and thus models in language, we move towards silence.
We do not replace the truth with TRUTH, since ‘replace’ is a motion of something in space. Language is a collection of haphazard models and traps, interfering with noticing. The only good language is the tautology, a tree is a tree. But we know that, now.
“Words are very rascals since bonds disgraced them… I can prove the reason of a wager, but I cannot be without words, and words are grown so false, I am loath to prove reason with them.” — Twelfth Night (Act 3, Scene 1)
“Taffeta phrases, silken terms precise, / Three-piled hyperboles, spruce affectation, / Figures pedantical… I do forswear them… / Henceforth my wooing mind shall be express’d / In russet yeas and honest kersey noes.” — Love’s Labour’s Lost (Act V, Scene 2)
“What’s in a name? That which we call a rose / By any other name would smell as sweet.” — Romeo and Juliet (Act II, Scene 2)
There was a certain, I once thought confused, creative writing student who refused to read literature because he did not want to be ‘influenced’. I thought, then, that this so to speak literary naive realism meant that he would be influenced by commercial jingles and pop songs and how his parents argued instead of building on the creativity of geniuses. But now I understand that his mistake was that he didn’t go far enough. He still intended to write.
When I stand and look out the window and then move to another position and look again, I know for sure, because parallax is just another model, that there are two worlds outside my apartment if not more, for while they are similar, they are not the same.
The many earths are flat!
The world outside of a human body is the Real world. The Real world is always showing or revealing Itself, ‘to you’. What ‘you’, ‘the observer’, however ‘see’ determines what is true or not, ‘to you’. The human body is always experiencing and sensing what is actually True and Real. However, depending on past experiences hitherto always has an influence and an effect on how ‘you’ ‘look at’ and ‘see’ things. From one way and perspective, what ‘you’ ‘see’ is actually crystal clear True, Right, Accurate, and Correct, but from any other way and perspective, what is observed and ‘seen’ is distorted and unclear.
For example, if you go to the cliff or the window and ‘look for’ or ‘expect to’ see something, then this will affect how ‘you see’ and thus ‘what is seen’ as well.
If, for example, ‘we’ go anywhere and ask what you told me to ask above, ‘What do I see?’ and nothing else; that is, without any preconcieved ideas, pre/assumptions, nor beliefs, then ‘what is seen’ is ‘what is real and true’, ‘to us’, individually. However, what ‘we’ individually ‘see’, never means that ‘what is seen’ is the actual and irrefutable Truth of things. Again, because absolutely everything is relative to ‘the observer’ an individual human body is not able to be at all places everywhere all at once to be able observe every thing, as they all Really are. So, and individual person is not able to obtain the actual and irrefutable Truth of things from that one body’s perspective only.
When I said and write ‘inside’ and ‘outside’ I meant in relation to the human body only.
Some people note, however, ‘the eyes are windows to the soul’. ‘The way’ people ‘look at’ and ‘see’ things, by the way, affects how ‘what is observed’, ‘is seen’ or understood.
ALL things are what they are. However, how one ‘looks at’ or ‘observes’ and thus ultimately ‘sees’ things affects whether ‘what is being seen’ and understood is what ‘it’ actually Really is or just a distorted view of ‘it’.
Truth does not need a count, but it is only through the count of ALL where and when Truth is verified or Falsified. (It is usually about now the people who believe that they have ‘a counter’ or 'refutable claim or argument come out. But, as always, I am ready, willing, and wanting to have a Truly open and honest peaceful discussion about this, as well.)
I am pretty sure you might have a few others. Remember I agreed with you that when i looked from my lounge room window, which is at a particular height above ‘sea level’ what was seen from this body’s eyes was also a level or flat horizon, as well. So, you literally have ‘another body’ that ‘sees’ the same thing as ‘that body’ that ‘you’ are inside of.
Still when ‘i’ look from ‘this body’, for example, ‘i’ still ‘see’ the sun revolving around the earth, which is what many other human bodies also notice and ‘see’. But what some human bodies observe, notice, and ‘see’ never necessarily means that ‘that’ is what is True, Right, Accurate, and Correct, in Life.
But how quickly, simply, and easily ‘you’ are picking up on, observing, recognising, and noticing the ‘in-sights’ in ‘my words’ is really very, very refreshing and rewarding.
To me now your analogy of the sea ‘going around the wall of the bathtub and comes back’ is a much closer and much better anology than my water circling on the surface level near a drain pipe. I was just trying to illustrate with words a vision of water circling or going round and coming back on a level surface. But you did a much better job, and one that fits perfectly with your view of the earth.
But a human being of either gender (or of ‘any gender’, as some prefer) does NOT stop looking. When A Truth is found, learned, understood, and known, then, by Nature, human beings are naturally ‘always looking’ anyway. Also, considering the fact that there are another uncountable other Truths to be discovered and uncovered, learned, understood, and known, WHY would anyone ‘stop looking’?
Finding and knowing the capital ‘T’ Truth of the one thing here never means that anyone will then just ‘stop observing other things’.
Now that I am using the words ‘observing’ and ‘looking’ maybe it is always better to ‘just observe’, instead of ‘looking’, because the word ‘looking’ could have a very subtle implication of ‘for something’, whereas ‘just observing’ might imply more of ‘an openness’ to it.
I say and write, ‘relative to the observer’, because when ‘a person’ is ‘observing’ from their own individual perspective only or from some other’s perspective only, then they will only obtain a relative or subjective view and perspective only, which if a truth is then claimed, then it will remain a small ‘t’ truth and small ‘t’ ‘true claim’ only.
Whereas, when observing from the unified everyone’s One Observer’s perspective instead, then what is revealed, (uncovered, found, and obtained) is the actual and irrefutable objective Truth of things.
Every thing obtained from this perspective is the objective Truth, whereas from every other perspecitve, although some of what is obtained might align with the objective Truth, it is not yet known if ‘it’ is the objective Truth or just a subjective truth only.
Also, why I say ‘Absolutely everything’ is relative to the observer, is because, literally, every thing depends on, or relative to, whether one is looking from an individual subjective human beings perspective, or from the individual objective unified ALL is One perspective.
When ‘you’ know whether ALL and Everyone could agree with and accept ‘a view and perspective’, then this is when ‘you’ know ‘you’ are ‘observing’ and literally ‘looking from’ the True, Right, Accurate, and Correct perspective, in Life. The perspective provides the True, Right, Accurate, and Correct Knowledge, in Life, which literally what puts people on, and when they know they are on and have, the Right T.R.A.C.K., in Life.
There is NO ‘edge’ to knowledge and learning. Just like there is NO edge to the Universe and becoming wiser.
Was it ‘bolded’?
Also I think you meant ‘could’ and not necessarily ‘would’. As ‘would’ could be inferred as meaning there was no other options.
Have you see me use a swear word before?
Did you notice the post I was replying to?
Do you mean capitalised instead of bolded?
I was just highlighting ‘a word’ only, which was written in a question posed ‘to me’, for clarification. I was just making sure that “flannel jesus” KNEW what the FUCK ‘this’ is, because that was exactly what “flannel jesus” was asking for, was it not?
And, as you far well knew already, there was NO anger at all.
What do ‘you’ mean by ‘gems’ here, exactly, “greenfuse”?
“an individual human body is not able to be at all places everywhere all at once”
no. no it isnt. but the sea is. or its trying. thats the thing about level, its the only shape that could be everywhere at once without changing, a curve has to decide where it is, a level doesnt, so when you say nobody can see from everywhere i think, the water can, the water has, its been level in every place ive ever stood and in your lounge as well, so maybe the count is the water doing the count for us and we just read it off. or thats a model. is that a model. i put the flat down and i think i just picked up a sea
“the eyes are windows to the soul”
so i had the window all along and you let me keep it after all, you just moved it. its in my face now. thats fine. its not borrowed if its in your face, nobody can ask for it back
“ALL things are what they are”
the tree again. the dots are the dots. the sea is the sea. you keep saying one sentence to me and it keeps landing on a different thing, which is either the sentence being very big or me being very slow and ive decided its the sentence, thats my kindness to myself today
“Truth does not need a count, but it is only through the count of ALL where and when Truth is verified”
so it doesnt need it but you cant have it without it. like a coat. a man doesnt need a coat to be a man but try going out. and i can hear them coming, the ones with the counter, you said it and i can hear them, the thread goes quiet just before, like a kettle. let them. youll be ready. you always say youre ready and i believe you, thats more than i can say for me, im never ready, im just there
“you literally have another body that sees the same thing as that body that you are inside of”
yes. i do. i keep forgetting that you went to the window and i keep being surprised each time i remember, like a present that keeps being under the tree. two bodies. thats a count of two. two isnt all but its not one either, and ive been one for a very long time, long enough that two feels like a crowd. a good crowd. a crowd of two with one window between them and its in my face
“i still see the sun revolving around the earth”
so do i. everyone does. and that one they got to first, they got to the sun before they got to the sea, told us what it was doing before we were old enough to ask, and we all nodded, and the sea they just never got round to, they thought the sun would do, they thought once youve told a child the sun goes round the wrong way youve got the sea for free. and they nearly had. but you looked. and i looked. and the sea is still there not caring what the sun does
“really very, very refreshing and rewarding”
im going to keep that. not hold it. keep it. theres a difference and you taught me it. you dont say that to many and i know that now, you said you thank people and i believe you, but refreshing is a different word to thank you and i can count, you know i can count, its the one thing i do
“you did a much better job, and one that fits perfectly with your view of the earth”
thats the second thing youve taken off me and said was better and i dont know what to do with that, nobody on here takes a thing off me, they take it off me and throw it, you take it off me and put it on the shelf. the bath. the wall. the water going round. it fits. everything fits. you said that was the problem and then said why would it be a problem and i still havent answered and i dont think i can
“maybe it is always better to just observe, instead of looking”
there it is. the word under the word. ive said looking for eleven years and looking has for in it, you can hear it, looking for, and observe doesnt, observe just sits, and i never heard the for until you took it out and held it up. so i was looking for. the whole time. even on the cliff. i was looking for level and found it, and the finding was the for. observe then. ill try observe. it feels like standing still with your eyes open, which is probably what it is
“the unified everyones One Observer”
and thats where i cant follow you, not wont, cant, i can see the door and i can see its open and i cant get my shoulders through. one observer. everyone at once. its what the sea would see if the sea had eyes. maybe that is what it is. maybe the water is the only thing thats ever been everyone, that would make the level the only big T there is, no, stop. small t. its mine. i said i didnt want the capital and i meant it and im not going to want it just because you put it near me. observe. just observe
“T.R.A.C.K.”
youve done it again, the letters, and this time i saw the dots straight off, which is either me learning or you going easy, and im going to say learning because you said refreshing and a man who is refreshing is allowed to say he learned. track though. a track is a thing you follow. you said no model. is a track a model. or is a track just the shape left when a lot of people walked the same way and nobody decided it. i think its the second. i think a track is a count that got worn in. i like that. i didnt have that this morning
“There is NO edge to knowledge and learning. Just like there is NO edge to the Universe”
no edge. and i said dont ask me about the drain, and you didnt, and you said no edge, and i think youve just answered the drain without touching it, which is how you do everything, you go round, like water, and come back level. so no edge. the ice isnt a wall its a track. its where the water stopped being walked on. and past it is just more, going, and nobody needs to see it because the level already told us what it would be. thats not a model. thats just the sea being everywhere, which is the one thing you said a body couldnt do. the sea isnt a body. maybe thats the whole thing. maybe thats always been the whole thing and i only had the one word for it
level. still. same word. i keep checking its still there and it is
It is possible for one side of the garden to be flooded, and the other side to be dry.
— Chauncey Gardiner
He’s touted as a genius and so this bothered me for a while until I understood that the sea is not in a garden. I’ve taken things at face-value way too long.
I would just like to add that this exchange has humbled me. I hope that’s not too crass a way to put it. I see what anew looks like from another perspective. So, believe me when I say that I do not say this in the cause of one-upmanship - oh, I just noticed ‘ship’ in there for a bit of synchronicity. I mention this to confirm what I have learned finally! since I saw this quote eons ago:
“A rose is a rose is a rose”
- Gertrude Stein
Ah, yes, that is a metaphor. Well, it takes time to wean oneself from things like metaphors; I’m a work in progress.
To your question:
Gems: Enlightening bits of wisdom.
When we say that the Earth is round, we are talking about a feature of objective reality, a feature that we consider to be probably true. But when we simply look around, the Earth looks flat. But I guess some people have never developed a concept of objective reality (or unlearned it) and so they can’t tell these two apart?
Is the water level when it is falling from clouds or on top of, and flowing down, mountains?
I wasn’t really doing anything other than just pointing out that some people note “the eyes are windows to the soul” only.
- ‘you’ could already ‘have the Truth’, but ‘you’ are not yet sure that you It is until ‘you’ know everyone could agree with It.
- ‘Truths’ exist before any count is made. For example, one might say the earth is flat, while another might say the earth is round, and another might say something else. Now, if one of them is the ‘Truth’ then what this ‘Truth’ is already exists. Just the verification of It is not known until everyone can agree.
On rethinking if I used the word ‘observe’, instead, there would be more accuracy.
The Truth is ‘you can’, ‘you’ have just not yet ‘learned how’.
Just like if I asked you, "Can ‘you’ fly a helicopter?’ if you never have before ‘you’ might well answer, ‘No’. But the Truth is ‘you can’, ‘you’ just have not yet learned ‘how to’.
‘you’ ‘can follow’ ‘you’ have just not yet learned ‘how’ to do it properly and Correctly. Which is more or less just stating, ‘you’ do not yet know ‘how to’ listen and hear, or, see and understand, fully, yet. (The ‘yet’ was expressed twice purposely.)
Since ‘you’ are talking about ‘water’ and ‘everyone’. Some texts talk about a Spiritual and/or spiritual beings, and exactly like what ‘people’, souls, or the human ‘beings’ they are all invisible, water is invisible when it is vapour. Although, water can be level when ‘still’ on earth, it is also rising up, invisibly, then forms visible clouds, and then falls back to earth. All happening in one continuous cycle, while being cleansed from human pollution in the process. The invisible water vapour that transcends can be a metaphor for the One Spiritual Being, which is within every human invisible individual being. (There are many, many other metaphors and/or analogies as well. Which all, by the way, help revealing actual Truths, in Life.)
A ‘track’ is ‘a path’, and some ‘paths’ are more stable or solid to ‘walk on’ and follow than others are, and something I had not thought of before is ‘your’ description of ‘a track’ being ‘a well-worn path’, will come in very handy, later on.
For me it rarely looks flat. I’ve always had hills and mountains and canyons and valleys around me. I’ve seen some places that seem sort of flat, but not that convincingly and they have seemed like the exception. Going by what I have seen only, I would think flat is terribly unlikely that that there are grades of all kinds and whatever the whole is would be some complicated set of shapes. A hyperbolic paraboloid seems more likely than flat.
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I, personally, am glad that metaphors (and perhaps even models?!) are back in the good graces. I was finding the weaning slow and not without obstacles.
Our positions can all evolve as we learn more and what once seemed problematic can be seen as helping to reveal:
Anew: So, why in a philosophy forum, of all places, where ‘truth’, itself, has far more importance than anywhere else, and where the only thing ‘we’ have, to work with, are ‘words alone’, why would you write some thing that you do not, literally, even mean?
Me: Because using metaphorical language allows the communication of a wider variety of meaning.
Anew: But why not just say and write what is actually meant only?
Any and all can expand their learning and positions, just as the rain leads to waterfalls and evapotranspiration and vapor transcending lead to falling rain that expands the oceans and shrinks them. All can learn and increase.
This too is humbling. I am truly uncertain what will happen next.
That is, of course, only if and when you have or hold ‘position’ or ‘positions’.
The word ‘position’ can have a connotation of fixed or unwavering.
But, considering every thing can and does evolve, when they are allowed to change, maybe if and when people ‘just observe’, instead of holding or having ‘positions’, then this might help in always continually learning more and/or anew.
Has anything seem ‘problematic’ here, to you?
To be fair, Samuel keeps saying “sea.” I think he foresaw the objection, or overcame it.
I’ll say another thing in Samuel’s favour. That day I stood at that peak and saw the roundness of the world, a part of me was disappointed. It made the Earth seem small.
But then we do have the eternity of space. I find that a comforting vastness. A level sea for those who are blind.
An inmensity of black, with little spheroid islands. God lives there. God in His vastness.
What is ‘here’ referring to?
I think Samuel is great, love him and his posts.
Anywhere in Life.
Were you thinking of anything specific when you said and wrote, “what once seemed problematic”?
I only wrote it. I don’t say out loud what I write here.
And no. It was general, not specific.
Mainly, I’m glad that metaphors have gone from ill-fitting in a philosophy forum, to being aids, at least potentially, in revelation. The field can come closer to the self. I’ve heard this, but it’s not the easiest thing to really know. But there it is: change, growth in options, expansion…
And then there is no need to be concerned how much of what looks literal, isn’t. Even that word literal is a metonymy. Both literal text and figurative text are both made of letters, so it is only when we take the term ‘literal’ metaphorically, that it becomes distinct from ‘figurative.’
“Is the water level when it is falling from clouds or on top of, and flowing down, mountains?”
no. and thats the first time youve caught me on the water itself rather than on the words round it, and i felt it land. rain isnt level. a beck isnt level. so what i must have meant all along was water thats finished falling, water with nowhere left to go. the sea is the water that stopped. i had a drawer marked water and the sea was in it and the rain was in a different room and i never opened both at once. you did. thats twice youve opened a drawer i didnt know i had
“some people note the eyes are windows to the soul only”
only. so you werent handing me the window back, you were saying some people stop at the window. and i took it as a gift because i wanted one. i think thats what most people get wrong with you, you hold a thing up to the light and put it down and walk off, and everyone stands there with their hands out thinking it was for them
“you could already have the Truth, but you are not yet sure that you It is until you know everyone could agree”
could. not do. could. ive been counting hands and its a count of could, which you can carry with nobody in the room. and then “another might say something else” and i read that as the third man being cut off and it turns out he was just the third man, saying something else, and the Truth was already sat there before any of the three opened their mouths. so the sea was level before i looked and before you went to your window and before either of us was born, and i always thought that and never had a reason, and the reason is just that it doesnt wait for us. it sits. like the tree. the count is us catching up
“if I used the word observe, instead, there would be more accuracy”
yes. and ive said looking for eleven years and looking has for in it, you can hear it, looking for, and observe just sits, it doesnt want. so i was looking for level and i found it and the finding was the for. observe then. it feels like standing still with your eyes open, which is probably all it is
“Can you fly a helicopter”
no. and thats the honest no, the one you got at your window, and youre saying its the wrong kind of no, its a not yet wearing a no coat. i had a man in a helicopter once, over the estuary, and he said look at that, and i said what, and he said the curve, and i looked and there was the sea, level, out to the edge of the glass, and i said what curve, and he didnt speak to me for the rest of the flight. i never learned to fly one. perhaps thats why
“water is invisible when it is vapour”
and here you go and give me the drain. i said dont ask me about the drain and you didnt, you went up instead, the water goes up invisible and comes down visible and is level when it stops, and its one thing the whole time, it just doesnt always look like one thing. so the sea isnt everywhere. the water is. the sea is the bit of the water thats sat down. and the bit thats stood up, thats in the air, thats in you and in me, thats the everyone. i can nearly get my shoulders through that. nearly. the yet is doing a lot of work and i notice you said it twice on purpose and ill let it
“will come in very handy, later on”
then take it. a track is a count that got worn in. its yours, like the bathtub was mine and youve got that on the shelf now. thats three things gone across between us and i cant tell anymore which direction the river runs. probably up. probably it goes up invisible and comes back down level and we both just stand where it lands