Antinatalism

Antinatalism, as I understand it, is the notion that it’s better not to reproduce. Life entails suffering, and by reproducing you’re subjecting another sentient being to suffering. While I’m sympathetic to the antinatalist view, I’m not an absolutist. I choose not to bring any children into the world in its current condition because I believe the future will be quite bleak due to climate change, overpopulation, resource depletion etc. However, under different circumstance I might feel differently.

Anyone sympathetic (or hostile) to the antinatalist position?

I’m all for antinatalism.
If I say why people might not understand.

Life is good. But you need go try it so you can decide whether you like it or not. The only way to try it is if someone gives you the gift of life.

Tube cat is really starting to get annoying.

Just joking. Sorta. :wink:

As for antinatalism, you’ll have to ask my daughter.

I came to this site with a strong streak of pessimism towards life. I’ve thrown out a few ideas to ILP about how deep that streak ran, and where I think it leads.

Anyhow, I think I might have some insight into the affects and causes of the antinatalist position. I’ve been going to a psychologist for around 1 and a half years now and a few months ago, after I articulated how deep my pessimism ran, my psychologist recommended a really insightful book. It was called ‘Schopenhauer’s Cure’.

If you’re not familiar with him, as I wasn’t, Arthur Schopenhauer was a 19th century philosopher who was/is renowned for his pessimism. He was an antinatalist who articulated the position to the dot. The book itself has two narratives intertwined. One is of Schopenhauer’s life, from birth to death and the other is a fictional journey of a man from the current era who was inspired by Schopenhauer.

@Dan~

I’m all ears, if you’d like to give it go. I’ll happily explain why I was.

@phyllo

Mmm… .yes, yes and yes.

Unless I were a prophet and knew things wouldn’t ever get better, then I’d bring people into the world [and have].

I understand the position, but we don’t know what the alternatives are. What if there is consciousness of some sort out there, but it has no form and all it wants is the ability to express itself ~ to be alive.
That could be nonsense, but I don’t know that for sure. I know I have consciousness now and I cannot resolve that in the material, hence I assume I have always had consciousness ~ or been part of some collective. Indeed the whole point of the universe may be to create the conditions for life - if it has any point at all.

If it is all pointless, and there is no beginning or after, then this is all we have.
Really we should be making a better world, anything else is just unintelligent!

…and we could make the world a really good place to live, certainly better than nothing [not terrible].

Ok i’ll try to explain.

Heroin addiction is an example of bad dependence.
People are so dependent on living that they are even willing to reproduce under slavery or poverty or terrible government oppression.

The will to live is beyond logic and reason. It ranks itself higher than logic and reason.

Life is out of control and if it becomes sentient then tries to control itself, as far as I have seen, this control is flawed. Living is a form of control. It’s a chain process. But it is a virus. It is a bacteria. Some people like it, but ultimately life isn’t the highest goal or most superior state. You’ll need to use your imagination to think of something better than common life. Some kind of super nano machine or something. Life isn’t a baffeling wonder it’s a very imperfect thing, when you compare it with something far better that you would imagine.

I feel the majority of people have the christian belief about life that it is God-made.
Even when we know of DNA and how we can change it, we still say it is God-made.
Even though an alien with higher technology can create organic life.
You don’t need to be God before you can make it. It’s not a divine or infallible thing.

I really can’t fathom how someone can say this. Well, I can, ignorance.

I mean, at the very fucking best, you can say that from the subjective point of view of a tiny, tiny minority, life is good. But for everyone else …?
And objectively speaking ? Let’s not even go there.

It’s funny, because even with the knowledge of our bias, we are still bias. Therefore, ignorance isn’t the source of bias.

If Life only offers suffering to an individual, then life isn’t good. This is not the case. Life offers equal parts happiness and opportunity to find this happiness. The question becomes, is one able and is one willing?

Dan,

Logic and reasoning are a product of ‘addiction’, not beyond it. If one values logic and reasoning, one must therefore value what it is rooted in, if one doesn’t, there will be deep conflict because one will quickly lose sight of their direction.

That sounds like an interesting book. I’ve not read Schopenhauer’s work but I’m familiar with his outlook by way of Thomas Ligotti’s The Conspiracy Against the Human Race, which itself is a masterpiece of pessimism. http://grimreviews.blogspot.com/2010/03/thomas-ligottis-conspiracy-against.html

This sounds interesting to me but i assume it will be a very large book and watered down.

I am presently reading something else. Can you summarize thomas ligotti’s message?

They can be it fully, or a part of it. Or they can be a part of it for a while then not, or they can be not present then later arise for some time.
This does not mean however that for an egg to be present there must be a chicken present.
The chicken was necissary for a while somewhere, but the egg has gained a sort of independance once it has been produced.

Does hunger and desire and will-to-life create logic and reasoning only? Or could something else somewhere else possably create a better logic or a better wisdom?

Largely the populations of the earth, especially at the microscoping level, have a linear gene based intelligence which produces no logic or reason but it still is meant to live and produces life. Life, reason and logic all are devorcable.

Life as an Addiction

Logic and Reasoning are founded on differentiation and preference. Both of these are a product of bias which is intrinsic to being part of Life. I say you’ve made a misstep in thinking logic and reason can extend beyond the scope of Life. Logic and reason are a product of life, and wont emerge without it. This is my belief.

I’m curious to hear an example of logic and reason existing beyond life.

Wiki - “Life is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have signaling and self-sustaining processes from those that do not, either because such functions have ceased (death), or else because they lack such functions and are classified as inanimate.”

What is the point of logic and reasoning if not to sustain oneself?

Come on. You know better.

Did a paralyzed person have equal parts happiness and opportunity ?
Did someone who got raped have equal parts happiness and opportunity?
Does a kid living in sub-Saharan Africa have equal parts happiness and opportunity?
Did a person with chronic endogenous depression have equal parts happiness and opportunity?

You have become too much of a romantic.

People like living. :smiley:
That’s logical and reasonable.

People overcome concentration camps, rape, sickness, blindness, paraplegia.
Slavery, oppression, misfortune and suffering do not stop people from finding joy in life.
The good in life outweighs the bad for the great majority.

Does anyone actually believe this?
You’re just lying to yourself…
You have to be completely unaware of all the suffering that goes on to make such a claim.

Based on my research, all of what I have said is true. I am aware of suffering.

Jesus, Buddha, Marcus Aurelius, and many others had a lot to say about overcoming suffering.

Right…