Are logical proofs useful?

I’m sure everyone has been there, where you proved a thing and instead of admitting the proof is true the person you’re debating ignores it and doubles, triples, quadruples, down on the error. I know there is research describing the phenomenon but I’d like to just have a general discussion.

So the question is,

Is it better to debate, or to ignore?

Does arguing against a position give it credibility even if it is nonsensical? For example, if I claim I pooped gold once and someone debates me, do people take me more seriously?

Once a proof has been logically verified, and the person continues to ignore it, is there anything further to do?

If a proof fails to convince someone is it worth anything? Keep in mind it took the church 350 years to come to terms with Galileo’s discovery. None of the people who heard his arguments were alive so technically he didn’t convince anyone. They just died. It is more probable that they were replaced with children who were indoctrinated by Galileo’s camp than it is probable that any of them were convinced by the actual argument.

Much of the Church was convinced of Galileo as far as astronomy was concernedconcerned (some resistance, but mostly ignored outside the Inquisition), it wasn’t dragging on his theory of the cosmos but his suggested reforms of including scientific verification into theology. The Catholic church DOES hold to this now. It wasn’t much of a debate about the geocentric vs heliocentric models, as a squabble between Galileo and a few Jesuits he claims he pissed off, the Pope was from his city, used his telescope, could make common sense understandings… but the church in that era was very protective of theological change from without forcing changes within. It also needs pointed out it was more of a scholastic Inquisition, even one of his inquisitors was likewise on trial by the Inquisition… they had only so many intellectuals back in the day. Modern science doesn’t accept Galileo’s position, he has never triumphed in science, his fight was a theological one, and he won. Atheists try to make him a martyr, but Galileo himself would be dumbfounded and confused at this. He literally saw it as just a personal feud with a few Jesuits, who otherwise would of left him alone for not stepping on their toes. He noted this.

Now, if your going to do philosophy, you gotta get used to studying rhetoric and dialectics. You don’t have to read any books, just get used to it. I have feuds going back over a decade with a guy… every possible gambit has been used on both sides, it has made us better debaters.

You gotta get used to working mental networks. If your argument failed to convince, then you need to understand why, try, try, and try again. Your likely missing something and don’t comprehend it. Its only when you put yourself on a pedestool above all others, saying you don’t argue with idiots, that you become easy prey. Take a look at my user name… I choose it very carefully. I can argue very high, and I can argue very low. I open myself up to the full potential of debating, and when I carry the debate… it can come off comedically and less hurtful, unless you take yourself too seriously.

Logical proofs are always potentially useful, even when wrong… you need to balance this with the knowledge the human mind evolved into philosophy, and not the other way around, we have different personality types as individuals, our feedback loops will therefore differ from person to person what is conscious and unconscious thought. What the fool excells at as a idiot savant you of sorts might not even be on your radar of how to think, but he might grasp aspects of your argument better than you do. It is why as a rule you shouldn’t take the idea of Logical Fallacies as acceptable in philosophy, and be prepared to brave bad arguments from time to time, to see what new shores of thought they take you to. You may discover it doesn’t logically apply to them, and you were wrong to demand they conform to your ridged thinking style in the first place. I’m not demanding a blind universal tolerance, eventually you’ll be able to read some people decently well, know what they will say well in advance… but your question suggests your hardly there yet. In the meantime, embrace and advance the dialectic. Its the main tool every philosopher has, even the very best aren’t above a dirty, rough, crude argument from time to time.

Did you ever here about Plato’s Analogy of the Line, and how Diogenes replied “You want to know the secret mysteries hidden in a line, all you gotta do is pull my finger”?

That’s a little condescending to assume I haven’t studied logic. Where is the comedic or rapport building value in talking down to someone?

Maybe some background would help. I was having a discussion with someone about whether or not debating conspiracy theorists is useful. My opinion is that it’s always useful to have the discussion because if for no other reason, it makes a template for future arguments to follow, or it provides evidence that this argument existed at a certain time, or it adds +1 to the side of some debate which is important because intimidation is frequently a way of convincing people.

But that was countered with the fact that there is evidence provided by researchers that suggests you could harden the belief in a conspiracy theory if the theorist is approached in certain ways. So there are obviously cases where arguments backfire, regardless of how good the proof is. That means despite mountains of scientific research, someone can still look at you and deny that your claim is true. If the purpose of the scientific method is to provide a system that removes untruths from proofs, and it fails to convince someone, it kinda negates the entire purpose of the scientific method. It’s not a matter of conformity, it’s a matter of intentional ignorance to deny the person the satisfaction of winning the argument. If I claim the definition according to some dictionary is some definition and copy it word for word, and someone responds, “That’s not the definition of that word.” you can only repeat “Yes it is.” until you both get bored. There’s no way to reword it to prove it harder. And that happens all the time. I suppose what I’m asking is, are there other situations where ignoring a debate would be preferable to engaging a debate and without the scientific method which should be the most useful tool to convince people, what are you supposed to fall back on? And your answer is what? Shit jokes? And if those don’t work, someone like me, who you presume is uninformed made a mistake, or the opponent is taking themselves too seriously? I like that your set of parameters conveniently removes the blame from yourself. I’m more interested in the dynamics of breaking deadlock once you are there though, or what will cause deadlock, or why the scientific method fails.

I only have enough time to reply to one of your replies.

I’ve developed the divide between Chreia and Paradox, personally. Chreia were usually one liners, comedic, aimed at proving a point, or series of points, on the observation of a Cynic on the paradoxes between Eudaimonia and and actual action. Aristotle and Bergson were of great importance to me in developing my technique in understanding the cognitive parameters in their theory of Comedy, as well as others such as Milarepa and Chuang Tzu.

I was a Cynic philosopher for a long time, but not too long ago changed to Stoicism. The Stoics continued this practice in developing early theater character types called Mimes, not really that similar to the modern concept… it all hinges on classical concepts of vices and virtues at play in human society and literature, and it always involves contradictions in syllogism, between what we think we are doing, and what we are actually doing.

I’ve further built up the system to engadge the throws of imagination with comedy. I wasn’t the first, in larger narratives, Volitare was the better, but what I do is I don’t approach sympathetic audiences seeking my work out, but rather engage hostile audiences, in the old Cynic practice of door to door knocking. The only audience I care for is the one throwing vitrole or knuckles down, unwilling to acknowledge others views. This forum, mostly Nietzscheans, but elsewhere, can be very different.

No, I don’t think you understand logic, I think our whole age is mistaken in it. How can I know this about you from so little exposure to you? I know it in the same sense of a minerologist knows the inside of a mountain from only a few surface pebbles. I’m long studied in this, and not just on forums.

In regards to hitting a dead end. Yes, I fully agree, the paranoid can be turned off, they have a very long memory as well. The paranoid schizophrenics I know remember for years who the “good cops” and “bad cops” are, and like a cat, never forget. But, this is making a monolith of kind of a category of people we don’t quite understand that much about. Thats the mystery with Phonetic Ethics… he is clearly schitzo, but I continuously test him like the dinosaur against the fence in Jurassic Park. I don’t accept everything is lost, I presume a great many feedback loops traditionally unexplored are still functioning but overlooked because others see he is disabled. When I see a response, I consider it in a much larger theory of mind consideration. He isn’t the only one I work with.

My state, West Virginia, has a very high High School Dropout rate. Its not because the population is intrinsically less evolved, just less opportunities to advance, in relation to temptations to flounder and drop out. Most academics are interested in high school retention… fine, but I can’t help but notice this leaves off a wide swath of the population left behind, unable to further their understandings enough to be fully useful to their society. This causes further loss if economic stimulation, more poverty, a nasty cycle. Its why I’ve become closely aligned with ideas from Montessori and Laubach Literacy. We have wide swaths of population here who can’t understand the concept behind Algerbra when taught in school, but the concept being taught isn’t designed for such a population… their patents and grandparents didn’t understand it, no apparent need to know it in daily life. Same with calculas, or basic logic, etc. Its at this very point in school when these subjects are being taught people loose track or attention in learning, turn to drugs, gangs, sex, etc… and drop out. Others have to keave due to needing a job. They never quite grasped the conceots needed.

As a result, a bug chunk if the population ignorantly stares, much like you do, asking “what does this have to do with me”. Well… it has to do with why your life and community is always so poor and shitty. It also has to do with the fact the educational system was then and now, completely incapable of tackling the phenomena that made you. As a result, there is a hugh cognitive rift between the haves and have nots, because they dont understand the language and signs used in intelligence, dispite displaying they know it, unknowingly.

Its why Ive taken a very diligent approach to looking at the history of education, especially mathematics, form antiquity around the world learning to apply foreign methods of teaching concepts where the modern western corpus is failing to make impact. I taught my four year old nephew how to add and substract, multiply and divide sums in the hundreds of thousands already, after just one attempt. Both his parents are heroine addicts. I have taught retarded children years behind in school how to read advanced works of literature. It comes from knowing how the brain works, personality restrictions, and a ability to link technology, such as a abacus variation with a logical idea, to teach a concept that further teaches other concepts on its own.

I can only do this, if I do exactly what your deploring against. Smashing my head against a impossible to penetrate wall. I am a philosopher, neither the first nor the last, and I am not intimidated by such obstacles. I seek to smash the ediface of ignorance, but will be content to merely chip away at it like my predecessors, and those who follow after me. It is a exciting challenge, to see in the dialectic your impulses are ALL FUCKING WRONG in explaining something to someone who doesnt get it. Where does the problem lay? Who really is the bigger fucking idiot? The guy who doesnt get it, or the guy who cant ever seem to satisfactory explain it right? The latter, if he isnt aware of his folly, and need to change his approach.

This change of appriach effects the foundation of intellectual philosophy. In one time of history, civilization made slaves of men incapable of understanding, but now we make men out of slaves with our teaching netgods and understandings. We’ve come a long way since the division of the Liberal and Mechanical Arts under men like Capella, but we still have much farther to go. If you cant make a impression rhetorically, then you cant teach… you cant convince, you cant better the lives of men or broaden the pursuit of knowledge. It is your mindset that stagnates, and your mindset that must be abolished.

Its why Ive undertaken writting Farmer Buridan. I’m modeling him after a 19th century, agrarian farmer, always in antagonism with his know everything wife, that he is trying constantly to outwit; she is convinced he is lazy, he is tired of her nagging and spying on his work, so he solves tasks via ingenious solutions… each solution underlines a method to be taught in school, underlining how trigonometry or algerbra, chemistry or economucs work. The children will be raught the concepts from a early age… I took the core from Buridan in medieval logic. Its chosen in its era for a simple reason, its a agrarian society, and the earth will soon be above 11-12 billion people in my lifetime. I need a basic folkhero like character who can be torn apart by any nation, renamed and adapted in parts as if he was their own, so uneducated patents can read these stories to their children, who will love the rascal lazy farmer always comming up with a solution, while not just preparing the child for higher education conceptually, but themselves democratically and economically once the grasp what is going on. Farmer Buridan will be copyright free, given teacher guides explaining how it relates to basic ideas in higher education. As long as you can read, if your a dirt farmer in Mali, you should grasp something of knowledge. Even if you can’t read, if you can hear the stories, you can ponder it.

I’m hoping works like this and copycat works radically increases the scope of education. Problem is, who will educate our educators, worst, our “philosophers”? People like you exist with the presumption of an absolute knowledge. You turn your nose at the friction and diversity in cognitive styles. A Logical Fallacy gets thrown up, like a medieval wall, full of archers, preventing progress whereas it would otherwise be naturally be possible if philosophers had a love for the dialectic.

So… with such people come a very different approach. The Pull My Finger approach, being both painfully crude and enlightened at the same time. An idea isn’t much different than a finger… you can ask Cratylus, but you use the wrong finger in a academic setting, it shows your wrong. Diogenes point was things existed independently of our civil preconceptions, and in and of itself is most innocent. You shouldn’t be offended, give up hope too quickly, or turn away from a difficult situation, even when the other party is intentionally toying with you (especially). What you need is the awareness that like Milarepa and Diogenes, a innocent appendage isn’t much different from a profane one. You need to take rhetoric and dialectics as original each and every time, and no form of philosophy is a better teacher, more memorable and lasting, than humorous teaching. It is a Koan, Paradox, Logic, all wrapped up into one narrative. Bursting out laughing isn’t much different from Archimedes yelling Ah Ha, or Eureka!

Everything I do, I try to be experimental yet plottingly conservative, pointing back to the history encompassing my predecessors. I try to be off the cuff and original, yet looking for the principles and cognitive relations for future thinkers to build on. Essentially, I try always to be a philosopher.

So logical proofs are useful, but they rarely are expressed in the best manner, nir take the full scope of human experience of the idea behind the proof under consideration. A failure to teach properly, pass on a idea, signals more our own ignorance than the ignorance of others.

You know what they say about brevity right?

Jesus fuck man, I’m going to need many more beers to get through this. I’ll give you a response if I finish it.

Logical proofs are useful because they represent solutions and already proven strategies for distinct problems. There’s no need to reinvent the wheel. What’s worked in the past, works now, ought to work in the future. Logical proofs are efficient for “known problems”.

Where would science be without the guinea pigs and rats?
Society is just an ego game. Altruists are very rare.

Logic is in the eyes of the beholder.
Logical proofs are only good for logical minds.

Holy fuck where to begin? How much time did you have?

If you’re mastering the art of comedic one liners you went over your word count by a million. <— One liner.

Good for you I guess.

Let me guess… You understand logic though? Because you’re making a pretty big assumption by claiming to know what I think based off a post. This is especially considering you’ve misinterpreted my point. Like I said earlier, I’m playing devils advocate for someone I was having a discussion with. I believe it’s valuable to have dead ended discussions. I wanted to explore the possibilities of the other point though, which apparently won’t be happening I guess.

I’m not talking about the disabled. Conspiracy theorists =/= paranoid schizophrenics.

Great.

That’s not what my question was. My question was, under what conditions does pushing against a stalemate benefit and under what conditions does it harm. Not “What does this have to do with me.” This has nothing to do with me. This is a discussion on how to optimize debate, not “Why am I always wrong?” As you seem to think I’m wondering.

Cool story.

Again, not “diploring” anything. But you actually touched on the topic here so I’m going to try to save this shit show and get at least one nugget of useful information. Do you believe you can convince anyone of anything? Or do you just blame yourself if you fail? You said you blame the other person for taking themselves seriously, so it sounds like you don’t blame yourself. I mean look regardless of how badly you’ve mischaracterized me, you’re criticizing me for failing to do something, and then advising me on how to do that thing, using hopefully some logic, with the intent to prove you’re right. If you have a method you believe to be infallible that contradicts your dialectic approach and your criticizing of “absolute knowledge.”

Dude… come on. Is this necessary?

So you’ve failed to entertain me. And 90% of your comment is a tangent that is barely on topic, which isn’t very convincing. What is your secondary approach?

I think comedy and entertainment are great tools for making a point, but they’re not always applicable. What other tools are there? And what situations to they apply to?

So take this proof for example. You made some spelling errors. If I say, “lose” isn’t spelled “l-o-o-s-e”. So “people loose track” should be “people lose track”… We have an agreed on definition of lose and loose. We all have the references to look up the definition. I can easily say, hey you used the wrong word, or you spelled the word wrong, maybe you were typing fast, I don’t care. The point is, that word is wrong. Anyone who reads English can point to it and prove it is wrong. But you’re saying, if it’s not presented in joke format, something like, “Knock knock. Who’s there? You fucked up spelling lose” it won’t convince the other person? That’s the only option? There’s nothing else? I can’t just be like, hey get a spell check. I think it’s way more complicated than that. And those are the variables I’m interested in discussing. Yes it’s a good approach but it’s not the only approach, and I think it would run into limits. The biggest limit being your capacity to generate humorous content. I mean even the funniest person can’t be on all the time and that’s not a fault they should be expected to overcome simply because someone is unwilling to admit a spelling error.

goddamnit.

Yes and no. I don’t really know whether I have ever been there. I know about the frustration of being opposed to someone who stubbornly refutes to see your point. I remember having spent a whole night up - to no avail - trying to convince a classmate that whether you cannot predict the behaviour of someone, then you must infer that that someone displays free will. That’s my current day’s version of the object of contention and it shows that I have eventually changed my mind about it: if you can’t predict one’s behaviour it means just that: you are unable to predict.
Leaving memories aside, I guess that logical proofs aren’t always needed, they need not to be the ultimate seal of an argument, notably in philosophy. Clearly anyone in this trade, practicing it with that devotion to the notion of truth that somehow it presupposes, would reluctantly agree. Indeed using logic, at the very least to clarify language, is part of the philosopher toolkit. One excellent example is, in my opinion, G. E. Moore’s Principia Ethica. Moore highlights pretty well, i. a., a number of points where Stuart Mill’s thesis (in Utilitarianism,) lacks clarity. (As it highlights, at the same time and probably againt Moore’s intention, common abuses of so-called logic).
If you want, the key could be this scholastic principle

which translated into English is: “against one who denies commonly accepted principles, discussion is impossible”.
So, coming to your question

the answer would be: ignore.

Yet, what are those principia exactly? Because those principles are only rarely made explicit. People endowed with quite analytical mindsets very often seem to ignore the reach and the extent of the principia they are using to prop their thesis and arguments. It is very well possible that, in fact, no one can be wholly aware of the (implicit) assumptions s-he is actually using. In general, when in mathematics one has a thesis then one is concerned only with what ‘follows’, what lies downstream. (Good) Philosophy is not like that, it often cuts both ways: upward and downward.
And, besides the practical aspect, why would that ‘communiter’ be of any importance? On the contrary, should not philosophers be concerned with debunking communiter?

That inevitably points to the nature of logic. What would make logic inescapable, why logic would make an argument cogent (and, mostly, when)? Well, I guess that this debate is philosophy too.

Context, context, context. Goals, goals, goals. It depends on these things. At least for me. I can’t imagine a rule that would always apply. But focusing on that juncture, when you have laid out what you consider a clear demonstration and it has not worked in whatever the context is, it might be a time to stop arguing. It might not be. A paraphrase might make a difference. Unlkely, but possible. Or trying different approaches might help you understand your own thinking. Or you might learn more aboutt he psychology of the other person. Or a third party might enter and improve your argument or show you that in fact it was weak. Or it might be just you banging your head against a wall. Or really, outside your ken, this is what the other person experiences and they are correct.

Meaning what? What is communiter?

What are some commonly accepted principles? I use definitions because the words are common to both parties but despite definitions that should be commonly understand, I can quote a definition and it will be ignored repeatedly. What are you supposed to do if the definition of the word is ignored? If you can define the number 3 as “2 < x < 4 where x is an integer”. And then you define the term integer to mean “Any whole number that is not a fraction.” You would think everyone would agree that 3 is the number between 2 and 4. But no. Instead people start arguing things like "Well you can define 3 as the symbol $ therefore the concept of an integer that fits between 2 and 4 doesn’t exist. And if you follow this shit show long enough, people think they’re making really interesting rebuttals because you’re responding to them, but it’s really fucking boring to have to explain that a concept and a symbol are different things, or whatever the misunderstanding is. In those cases which is every discussion, what chasing down a rabbit hole only seems to embolden people. So in that respects I agree. There’s no reason to debate.

Have you found that to be a good personal standard then? If there are no commonly accepted principles there is no reason to debate?"

Any other ideas along those lines you think help a discussion along?

Yeah. I mean I agree there are a lot of variables to convincing someone of your case but it seems like the tactic that has too little priority is the logic of the argument and the variable that has too much priority is how charismatic the person is. If you can win an argument by schmoozing people with a flimsy argument why not just buy people cupcakes, save your time by doing little to no research, and win them to your cause by being excessively appealing?

There’s certainly an argument to be made that charisma wins more people over than the technical details of an argument. No one cares what Donald Trump’s economic plan is but everyone cares that he “speaks his mind”. No one cares how Bernie Sanders is going to pay for all of his plans just as long as he says he will fuck up wall street. And it seems pretty common that even likable people who attempt to make valid arguments are ignored for whatever reason. Maybe they’re too “ivy league”, or “too boring”. So why not just appeal to base instincts, bread and circus type bullshit?

There has to be a backlash at some point. If shit gets too fucked up people have to want an adult in the room to control things but even then the adult is going to have to win people over by being nice and comforting before having a plan. But I’ve tried to bribe kids to manipulate behavior for long periods of time and they don’t respond well to it. There has to be authority in the mix but measuring a balance is a skill that takes forever to master when really you should just be able to say “Here’s the facts. Just follow this playbook and everything will work out fine.” But it never works that way.

Communiter means commonly. One should not refrain from considering objections against commonly help principles. I guess exemples abund, Hume on cause, Popper on induction… Most philosophers worth of attention have for some aspect criticized communiter, with few exceptions (possibly with no exceptions) philosophers are men against their time. Yet it’s clear that criticism is a lot more ‘constructive’ than plain refusal and the example of 3/$ shows a different kind of attitude; in my opinion one should not waste one’s time after that way of argumenting, and even less after primadonnas (qua primadonnas).

I can’t answer to that, I do not think one can easily identify an extensive set of principles commonly held.
I can only say that, beyond all specific cases, at the very least one should be consistent and express a view barring a deduction like (A) AND not(A). Then I guess it’s hardly the case that principles are always common - yet a fair share of them may be. As Moreno suggested, one has to clarify the context and the words one’s using. You may engage in a discussion on those assumptions and definitions, as long as it is a meaningful discussion. Actually that may be the best part, words that are common to both parties are not necessarily understood in the same way – in fact they are often not. There are always implicit assumptions of which people are often unaware, one should not shun going down that rabbit hole – again: as long as it is a genuine discussion.
On the other hand, when engaging into an exchange on a forum, one should be aware that quite often one is facing an ego more than a view or a position. Some are trolls or brawlers, others may practice a kind of noble art of debate. Some can be merely destructive, aiming solely at making fun of the opponent and utterly bereft of intellectual honesty, some others may still oppose and yet be cooperative, even polite. Of course the same person may display either of this attitudes, according to his inclinations and his mood of the day. Ultimately it’s up to you to pick your opponents.

I am not sure I understand the concept of “personal standard”. By the way, if you rest on some ‘principle’ key for your argument, which somehow is not accepted while you see no reason to discard it, either there can be a meaningful debate on that ‘principle’, or discussion becomes pointless. Actually I don’t see keeping a discussion alive as an end in itself. Sometimes you just have to differ, and that’s it.

What is “better” to do is to have a purpose in all that you do … and say. And then seek to satisfy that purpose.

When you want to convince someone of a thought, you have to speak to their persuasion. That might be very clear logic discourse or it might be romantic implications, or perhaps mere obfuscation with a tone of authority. Aristotle went through all of this (“logos, pathos, and ethos”).

If you are trying to convince me of something, logic is most definitely the way to go. But that means that if I am disagreeing, you need to very seriously examine the logic that you have presented. It doesn’t mean that I am necessarily right, but it certainly does mean that there is a miscommunication of some detail, perhaps the wording of an axiom. Most likely the lack of a definition.

I like the concept of Resolution Debating, wherein both parties try to find what all they can agree upon rather than disagree upon. During that process, the actual devil in the discussion gets exposed and then can be clarified/exorcised.

But with most people, it is largely a matter of both logos and pathos combined to suit their sense of acceptability. And with many people (most often boys who never grew up) that means that your thought must be presented in such a way as to cause them to feel secure by accepting the thought, often because they get the idea that it is their own thought. Women have had to deal with that issue for thousands of years.

If you come off as being strong and authoritative, especially on the internet and without signs of social authority, you can pretty much be guaranteed to get a recalcitrant, belligerent reaction. But perhaps that is your purpose. If you come off as a humble student inquiring and asking for help, you are likely to get a few comments that you could inquire more about and perhaps eventually persuade the respondent to formulate the very idea that you wanted him to acquire. That takes much more time and patience, but I have gone both ways … and more.

It all depends upon the purpose of your speaking in the first place.

Always ask of yourself, “Did I actually accomplish exactly what I was intending?” If the answer is “no”, you have no one to blame but yourself because either you should have done something differently to acquire what you were after or you should not have been wanting and trying to do something that is beyond your reach to do.

James is being contradictory and slight here…

He knows that when people follow their passions, contradiction is at play, and it ultimately comes to logic … However, the thrust of his post as well is might makes right, and then he blames the arguer.

He’s all over the map, trying to please everyone, and pleasing no one.

It’s not a matter of whether logic is appropriate…

When someone has a motivation, they understand contradiction, it is the have all be all…

The question is one of time to this regard.

Lack of contradiction always transcends death…

If James had trusted his gut on this, that post wouldn’t have been so mangled.

This coming from the guy who declared that 1= 0.

You have a really screwy way of interpreting things.

1=0 eh?? How did I make the argument? I forget.

I can see how maybe 1 in the absence of all other numbers would equal zero, or maybe it was a hypothetical convergence argument. I’m drawing a blank!

You clearly stated that you preferred logic, but anything that gets from A to B is all that matters, while cunningly realizing that implies logic, while trying to sound tough and “open minded” for other options. I call those types of patterns “synthetic sophistication algorithms”

I had a discussion once where I cited a definition and the person I was typing with intentionally ignored part of the definition. I would quote it, they would read it, they understood that it meant definitions 1 - 4 but they behaved as if definition 3 didn’t exist. They would acknowledge it and use it to make claims about how definition 3 would work had someone written the definition down in a dictionary but if asked “Does definition 3 exist in the dictionary we’re both reading from” they would say no. I repeated that for weeks. Even if the term is defined clearly and the people agree on the term, the proof means nothing.

If someone finds a contradiction it should be a commonly accepted principle that contradictions are evidence that the logic is broken. That would be debate etiquette 101 if major league debating was a sport. I guess my complaint is that there’s no authority behind a contradiction. They’re just novelties that are brushed aside. If major league soccer did that to their rules, any time the ball went into the opponent’s net they could just ignore it and pretend it didn’t happen. No one would like that. And it’s even worse in debate. In debate no one can agree that we should even call it a soccer ball.

So do you think there’s anything to do about that? You don’t think it’s the end all to a discussion but if there is a debate and a proof is made and the opponent is unwilling to address it what are you supposed to do? It would be like if a soccer player picked up the ball and ran out of the stadium immediately when the whistle blew. You don’t have a game anymore. You don’t have anything. But without TV crews you can’t even embarrass them for being bad.

By personal standard I meant do you follow “against one who denies commonly accepted principles, discussion is impossible”. That seems like a good framework to get a discussion going. That’s the reason people in math and law define terms in the first place to find common principles. If you can’t do that, then it would make sense to ignore. I like that. It’s probably the best thing I’ve read on this forum. Is it something you employ and how well does it work for you?

You need context… Destroying rationality is a sign of conspicuous consumption, commonly used for the mating ritual … It’s supposedly a sign of dominance.

For the female mind, it shows that a person can destroy themselves and not be killed for it (which makes them a god ) also known as a conceptual illusion, it’s like a male peacock spreading it’s feathers…