AVERT THINE EYES, ATHEISTS AND NONBELIEVERS!

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
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[b]WARNING:The following is perhaps the WEIRDEST conceptual analysis of a certain aspect of Christian thought. The reader is hereby forewarned. Proponents of “logic”, “reason”, and the “empirical” may wish to stop reading NOW.

Despite the title of this thread, everyone is invited to read the “foolishness” that awaits. The following is meant primarily for Christians (and adherents of any “mutant strain” of Christian belief). Thus atheists and non-Christians may wish to accept what greets the eye with a grain of salt, or ignore the text altogether and move on to another thread.[/b]

PART ONE: THE PREDICAMENT OF THE “SAVED” (THE CHRISTIAN SALVATION OF THE HUMAN BEING)

Within Christianity (and Superchristianity) “salvation” is the most desired predicament of the human being that believes in the existence of the Judeo-Christian God, Jesus Christ, and the Christian entailment of God’s relation to and behavioral intentional toward the human being.

According to Christianity (and Superchristianity), a “saved” individual is rescued from the threat of eternal torment in hellfire (Fundamentalist Christianity) and/or rescued from the “dark side” of human nature (self/other destructive lust and predatory instinct and desire), with that nature displaced by a transcendent state of mind.

This salvation is due to a God-imposed relationship between a human being and Jesus Christ, which allows (or causes) the human to transcend a theological “evolutionary ladder” above the unsaved, humans who fail to possess the aforementioned relationship with the Judeo-Christian God and Jesus Christ due to ignorance, disbelief, or unwillingness.

A. The “Saved” According To Fundamentalist Christianity

Within Fundamentalist Christian doctrine, a “saved” human being is one who:

(1) Learns of the doctrine or hypothesis of the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ through the Roman execution of crucifixion

(2) Believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and a version of that God made flesh and prays for forgiveness of sins, falling upon one’s knees to accept “the God made flesh” as Personal Lord and Savior.

(3) Believes (most importantly) that the physical blood of Jesus shed during the scourging and crucifixion of Christ possesses the power to “wash away human sin”.

The shedding of Jesus’ blood is considered (by God) to be the universal “legal tender” for the absolution of all past sins (moral and lawful offense against God yielding an automatic penalty of eternal torment in Hell, if no forgiveness or intercession of sin is made for the damned).

(4)The “saved” individual now possesses a “clean slate”, prayerful access to God the Father (through Christ who continuously intermediates for the prayers of the saved individual), and admission after death (or upon the Rapture) to eternal bliss in heaven.



Fundamentalist Christian belief conflicts concerning the “permanence” of Christian salvation. There exist two distinct views concerning the invulnerability of the “saved” individual from any future wrath of God. One view holds that salvation is irrevocable, while the other holds that salvation is conditional and reversible. Biblical verses within the New Testament, strangely, support both arguments.

(4a) The “Once Saved Always Saved” view of Christian Salvation:

Fundamentalist Christians of the “once saved always saved” camp hold that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and it’s redemption of the believer is irreversible and irrevocable. In this view, a “saved” person is bound for Heaven “no matter what”, such that an individual who continues to commit even deliberte sins will nevertheless achieve Heaven, due to primordial faith and acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and their invitation for Christ to become Personal Lord and Savior.

The individual who continues to sin, according to the OSAS argument, is nevertheless continually punished (pre-afterlife) by God, and there exists the belief that God, while respecting freedom of will, nevertheless influences the conscience of the sinning Christian in order to instigate a desire to cease their deliberate behavior. Nevertheless, the “blood pardon” of Jesus Christ is transtemporal (applying to all past and future sins) and irrevocable, with the individual granted entrance to Heaven.

However, questions beg concerning deeper implications and “loopholes” within the OSAS argument:

(4a1) Are sociopaths (human beings incapable of experiencing conscience and empathy, and are unapologetic concerning delibertate violation of the Golden Rule) capable of becoming “saved” and thus qualifying for the “once saved always saved” status?

(4a2) Are non-sociopaths, by nature, the only beings capable of believing the relevant Christian concept and accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? If sociopaths can do the same, are they denied salvation due to their sociopathy? If so, then what of God’s “freely given unanimous grace” to the repentant wicked mentioned in Romans 3?

“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus…”
(Romans 3:23,24 NIV)

(4a3) What of moral character within Heaven itself, once “all the saints have marched in”? If an individual is morally “less-than-stellar”, yet is granted admittance to Heaven due to their faith in the sacrifice of Jesus and acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior, is this not allowance of the threat of future sin within Heaven itself, short of a God-imposed lobotomy or psychomoral evolution of the sinful into the sinless?

(4b) The “Once Saved Not Always Saved” (Conditional Salvation) view of Christian Salvation:

Fundamentalist Christians who hold to the notion of Conditional Salvation derive their belief from the biblical verse:

“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentence, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” (Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV)

The conditional and reversible salvation view holds that upon belief in the divinity and sacrifice of Jesus Christ and acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior, the blood of Jesus “covers” only all past sinsbefore faith and repentance, and only all future sins that are repented, and for which forgiveness is sought.

Conditional and reversible salvation can be further decomposed into two disparate sub-groups: (a) Conditional Salvation that allows Forgiveable Deliberate Sin (to a point) and; (b) Conditional Salvation that invokes Unforgivable Deliberate Sin.

As the names imply, certain adherents of conditional and reversible salvation allow forgiveness for deliberate and defiant sin against God post-“salvation”, provided the indiviudal repents and asks forgiveness.

Conditional and reversible salvation views that considers unforgiveable deliberate/defiant sin holds that “the deal is off” once an individual deliberately sins, regardless of whether or not the individual seeks forgiveness after the fact.

Thus one can label the sub-groups, subsuming each within an overall Conditional and Reversible Salvation as (a) Strong Conditional Salvation (in which deliberate sin regardless of beseeching of forgiveness after the fact is unforgiveable) and (b) Weak Conditional Salvation (in which the former is forgiven, upon request for forgiveness).

Needless to say, the Fundamentalist Christian notion of the predicament of the “saved” is an escape from or a continued tightrope-walking within the Darwinian minefield of the Judeo-Christian God,with eternal damnation in hell as the “Sword of Damocles” that ensures the animals are all obediently jumping through their hoops through fear of the Second Death (Revelations 20).

B. THE “SAVED” ACCORDING TO SUPERCHRISTIANITY

Within Superchristianity, human “sin” is an aspect of the Grand Primordial Nihilism, that part of God’s omniscient foreknowledge of all events that contain all human evil (natural and deliberate evil). Thus, humans (within Superchristianity) are replicas of the imaginary characters within the GPN, re-enacted according to a grand scheme of the Judeo-Christian God to psychologically and morally evolve the nihilistic characters discovered within the GPN toward as state of psychomoral transcendence, “defeating” the GPN by using the GPN for his own ends.

According to Superchristianity, God’s use of the GPN in turn yields three psychological “species” or psychological “races” of human being, with two differentiated only due to the possession or lack of conscience, empathy, and the emotional significance of the practice of the Golden Rule.

These two “species” of human are:

(1)Non-Sociopathic Deviants (Non-sociopathic Non-Transcendents) are humans who are non-sociopathic to the level that they possess conscience and experience empathy (regardless of degree), and actively work to repress their natural predatory impulses that exist as a natural aspect of the “dark side of the moon” of human nature (thus non-sociopaths are beings who strongly feel and believe that restraint of their inner workings for the protection and safety of others is tantamount).

(The term “deviant” in Superchristian terminology is any conscious being whose psychology is distinct from that of the Judeo-Christian God and Jesus Christ, in the sense that a given human mind [as the most relevant example] “deviates” in terms of it’s perceptions, intentions, and desires from the mind of Jesus Christ)

(2) Sociopathic Deviants (Non-Transcendent sociopaths) are humans that exist as the “other side of the coin” from non-sociopathic deviants, due to their lack of conscience, lack of the ability to experience empathy, and their heartfelt disbelief in the significance or necessity for adherence to the Golden Rule and self-control for the sake of others.



It is the charge of Superchristianity that sociopaths are incapable of existence as the third “species” of human being introduced below (absent a God-imposed lobotomy). Sociopathic deviants that physically act out their predations are punished within a temporary karmic “hell” within which God forces them to exchange bodies and traumatic circumstances with each of their pre-afterlife victims.

(3) Transcendent Deviants are the “saved” according to Superchristian doctrine. These humans come to possess an inextricable mind/experience-sharing parallelism between their “normal” human mind and the mind of Jesus Christ.

This psychological “merger” with Christ occurs due to the instantiation of a bizarre “faith in Jesus” (wholly distinct from the “faith in Jesus” invoked within Fundamentalist Christianity), in which the Transcendent Deviant comes to believe that one’s experiences are actually re-enactments of the experiences of Christ himself (with Christ “wearing the form” of the TD within his mind while dying upon the cross, and within Christ’s disembodied mind while his body lies in state post-crucifixion within the Tomb of Joseph of Arimathea).


The Transcendent Deviant, during physical life intermittently shares the private menality and emotional affect of Jesus Christ (according to the faith of the TD, with the belief that Christ continues to “run” within the TD subconsciously), and as such the Transcendent Deviant is the furthest being “up the evolutionary ladder” of God’s transformation of the human mind beyond the confines of the GPN.

The Transcendent Deviant possesses (theoretically) the bizarre property of immunity from death (save perhaps through aging).

THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINNING, O GENTLE READER—TO BE CONTINUED…!

Jay M. Brewer

(For an online easy-to-read COMIC BOOK that basically states the above but in a more concise and entertaining manner, simply go to:)

blog.myspace.com/superchristianity
or:
superchristianity.com

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Hmm . . . Here’s my question then. Do superchristians exist today, and if so, is there any collected data for the findings of their existence? Is it a breach of faith to allow for others to conduct tests on such people? I know that a passage somewhere in the bible is Jesus refusing to jump off a building when Satan tells him it would be fine, with Jesus reasoning that his abilities are not to be tested.

Also - there is controversy that “eternity” was mistranslated, and aeternus was a natural linguistic distortion over time from the term aeonian. There is a passage, I believe, in which God is to reconcile all in all. In which all are saved. That there are none eternally damned, but damned for an eon for their sins. (During an administration or something).

Also - is the Superchrisitan part of the body of christ or the bride church? Because as the body of christ, the Superchristian would be returned to god before the rapture and tribulation - meaning that as Earth goes through terrifying changes, only the bride church are the Christians left to live out the more terrible times (or the “grey area.” Religions that aren’t really repentant Christians, but follow similar doctrines in a moral way).

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Gaiaguerrilla:

The hypothesis of Superchristianity theorizes the possible existence of Superchristians (as the hypothesis stands or falls upon their existence).

While it is not necessarily a breach of faith to allow others to conduct tests, the presumed protocol (or etiquette) is for the Superchristian to allow themselves to be tested through “experiments in nature”.

An “experiment in nature” requires the Superchristian to refuse to deliberately place him/herself in danger, while refusing to dodge or run if others take the initiative and attempt to harm and kill them. This “bravery” is an act of faith: it allows the Transcendent Deviant to empirically demonstrate to the unbelieving world the power of the Judeo-Christian God, and the Transcendent is allowed to observe the continued failure of murderous attempt, justifying his or her belief that one is indeed a Transcendent Deviant—and that Superchristianity trumps all other religious beliefs by obtaining empirical demonstration of it’s existence.

This is the “do or die” test of the Superchristian faith. If the supposed “Superchristian” dies, then either Superchristianity is false or the individual did not properly possess the bizarre “faith in Jesus” that institutes Transcendent Deviancy.

The biblical “proof” of the success of the Transcendent Deviant can be interpreted to manifest as the fulfillment of the following verses:

“…The Lord delivers him in times of trouble. The Lord will protect him and preserve his life; he will bless him in the land and will not surrender him to the desire of his foes.”

(Psalm 41:1,2 NIV)

“I know that you are pleased with me, for my enemy does not triumph over me.”

(Psalm 41:11 NIV)

However, the only criterion for this is if the individual finds that he/she actually believes in the existence of the First and Second Reveries of Jesus Christ and believes that he/she is taking part or can take part in the First or Second Reverie (the process of transmuting a non-Transcendent into a Transcendent is up to God according to the predetermined time for a human to become Transcendent, and it at least requires actual belief in the relevant Superchristian concepts).

The proof, I think, is in the empirical pudding (rather than one stating that one “believes” that one is a Transcendent or that one “thinks, or is ‘pretty sure’” that one is Transcendent), which manifests by one’s continuous survival of circumstances that should rationally have caused the death of a normal human being.

Continuous survival from actual attempts of murder, continuous cure from disease or sickness, and inability to die from accident or acts of God combined with a belief in the relevant Superchristian concepts is (at the least) justification in the belief that one has become a Transcendent Deviant.

According to the Universalist view, the term: “eternity” is believed to be a mistranslation when it comes to it’s use in the length of punishment in “hell”.

(Superchristianity upholds the doctrine of “universalism” in the form of a Superuniversalism that insists that even Satan and the demons will be psychomorally evolved–with the aid of a God-imposed lobotomy following their punishment for their globally predatory responsibility within the GPN)

In other cases, such as the case of conceivable life in heaven, one might surmise that eternity in heaven is not translated to mean that one exists in heaven “just for an aeon”.

Thus, Superchristianity agrees that there is no such thing as eternal damnation, such that there is only “very, very, long damnation” until the wicked “makes things square”(in a form of karmic payback) according to their predatory deeds against others before lobotomizing begins to remove their sociopathy (according to the afterlife fate of the wicked in SC).

The “body” of Christ according to Superchristianity

As for the “body” and the “bride” of Christ, within Superchristian terminology, one is a part of the “body” of Christ by reason of one sharing in the sufferings of Christ (with such sufferings occurring within Christ’s mind [during a simulated reality/dream] while dying upon the cross, called the First Reverie of Jesus Christ–in which Christ assumed the appearance and [intermittently] mind of all human beings, to suffer all negative [predatory and accidental] experiences of humans throughout the length of human existence).

This “sharing” of the mental suffering of Christ is activated (considered by God, according to his omniscient foreknowledge and predestination of the individual coming to possess the faith at the appointed time within universal history) activates when one comes to possess faith that one’s negative experiences were previously the experiences of Christ himself while dying upon the cross, with Christ wearing the very appearance or form of the faithful human within the relevant sacrificial dream (analogous to Dr. Sam Beckett wearing the form of certain random individuals that he “leaps into” in the 80’s sci-fi television series:Quantum Leap).

This follows from the Superchristian interpretation of the biblical verses:

"Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? (Superchristian translation: Christ’s “death” or suffering of all human negative traumatic experiences within the First Reverie while dying upon the cross)"

(Romans 6:3 NIV)

“For our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—because anyone who dies has been freed from sin.”

(Romans 6:6,7 NIV)

The “bride” of Christ in Superchristianity

The “bride” of Christ, according to Superchristian interpretation, is the final evolved state of the Transcendent Deviant (and all other beings in time) when one emerges as the “Christ-amalgamative” or a psychological hybid of normal human personality and the mind of Jesus Christ.

This is the final state of the human mind, which God creates finally free of GPN-concept and GPN-memory, with the mind and experiences of the heavenly being derived from the Third Reverie of Jesus Christ, in which Christ (in heaven post-crucifixion/post-ascension) dreams of the experiences of every heavenly being and their experience in heaven.

As for Superchristian belief concerning: “the Rapture”: the Rapture is not a bodily ascension into heaven of the saints.

According to Superchristianity, the “Rapture” is actually a VR (virtual reality) “reboot” of reality (as reality in SC adheres to the view of superpanpsychism, or denial of the existence of a mind-independent physical reality underlying perception–such that all that exists is the VR which is human perception itself) in which the “saints” achieve Christ-amalgamation, and the wicked are automatically sent to the temporary “hell” mentioned above. This is the SC interpretation of the “tribulation”.

The Third Reverie, logically, is neverending (with intermissions allowed once enough “experience data” is provided for the time being).

Jay M. Brewer
superchristianity.com

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The angeloid, plaedian and okasios influence over humanity and these near dimensions isn’t even half of what it usedto be. They can’t play god anymore, really. They can’t do miracles here or anything. The farce is over, man, it’s SO over!

We shouldn’t even be talking about christian stuff anymore.
All of the judaism needs to get the hell out of the economy and the goverment offices, and we gotta work on a mix of ecology and DNA improvement.

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Dan:

Yet, some believe that it is not a farce, and these base their belief upon a powerful suspicion that the relevant Christian concepts are real, regardless of one’s inability to prove that they exist.

From an empirical standpoint, as long as reality is only certainly a virtual reality supposedly (one might say “magically”) created wherever there exists electrical activity within a neocortex, the nature of that virtual reality and what might objectively exist beyond the VR allows the believer in God to confidently possess a skepticism of the absolute and undeniable truth of the atheist position, and allows belief in the “extra baggage” of religious thought.

(With such belief—due to the nature of our VR predicament–enjoying invulnerability from being obviously ruled out as false)

Thus, my warning to unbelievers of the “madness” of the relevant Christian concepts in the very first post of this thread is both a courtesy and a necessity. I told you this stuff is absurd. That is why Paul (it is believed) was inspired to write:

“For since in the wisdom of God the world through it’s wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.”

(1 Corinthians 1:21 NIV)

It’s meant for those who can drink this type of “liquor”, as they have the right to believe what they want (one hopes), despite the growing influence of “positivism” and “empiricism”.

Jay M. Brewer
superchristianity.com

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Well it is a well formulated belief which takes care of all of the old Holes which preside in other christian concepts.

Although,

  1. If eternal torment is not permanent. Why would you care to worship at all, or for that matter to be saved?

  2. Technicaly acording to supperChristianity you can do anything you want, Believe anything you want and still go to heaven after a period of mental reconditioning by God, which will aparently happen anyway…

  3. Also this means you are free to do as you please until you die, and then you are Forced to become what God wants you to be through this Labotamization. Which means Free will while allowed on this Plain is still not suported in Heaven.

All in all:

This is Definantly a Christian Belief I could suport “So Far” (The only one I would say was worth believing as far as Christian Concepts go). It has the allowences for all things if the Conditions for the afterword are agreed to.

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Sethesh:

Thanks for your response.

To answer your posts:

(1) One would presumably care to worship God regardless of the typical “extortion” of eternal (or temporary) damnation if one does not. All that is required, I think, is a natural and instinctual “hero-worship” of the Judeo-Christian God (if one believes that God exists) or the concept of the Judeo-Christian God (in the opinion of atheists looking at an individual’s admiration of God “from the outside looking in”).

The concept of “salvation” (being saved) in Christianity and Superchristianity is both:

(a) A “Get-out-of-Hell-Free” Card by faith in Jesus and:

(b) An abolishment of the dark side of one’s human nature (greed, hate, aggression, predatory lust and instinct, etc.). The Christian (and Superchristian) perceives human nature to be a curse, or a disease that seeks or requires a cure. This perception is in stark contrast to say, the Satanist, who worships and admires the “dark side” of the human mind and human behavior.

Thus a Christian (or Superchristian) desires “salvation” from human nature and from “hell” (eternal or temporary) regardless of the length of time one is to be tormented within hell.

(2) According to Superchristianity, free will doesn’t exist, and humans are controlled by God as external world “actors” and “actresses” re-enacting the imaginary characters that “existed” within the mind of God (as aspects of his omniscient foreknowledge of past, present, and future).

According to SC, we are actually the “Kurt Russells” playing the “Wyatt Earps” within a transtemporal:“Tombstone” (a working analogy).

The real “Wyatt Earps” are (or were) imaginary characters appearing within the mind of God before the beginning of the universe as a fallout consequence of God’s omniscience and the form in which that omniscience happened to manifest.

Thus, rather than “doing anything you want” you are actually only doing “that which God preordained you to do” according to your job as an actor or actress doomed to re-enact the imaginary events within God’s mind (pre-universe).

God’s existential pity for GPN-characters (in that they are what they are insofar as they simply turned out to be imagined possessing the character that they portray) instigates a desire to psychomorally evolve GPN-characters into transcendent states of being (with these states derived from the mind of Jesus Christ, such that God binds all beings, in time, to Christ by their derivation from and shared mentality and experience with, Christ himself).

(3) Once again, see response (2) above concerning how we are not really “free to do as one pleases until one dies”.

Within Superchristianity, God is not a cosmic bully or despot who happens to be so powerful that he simply imposes his will upon you whether you like it or not—God is a (conscious and anthropomorphic) causal mechanism that supports and determines our very existence and mentality (according to the GPN or independent of the GPN).

In this sense, God is a conscious analog to the physical forces and principles that are believed to control us in atheistic explanations of the world and it’s operation. It is not as if we can act independently of God, rather, God is a necessary aspect of the process of our movement, thought, and being.

As Paul states in his famous “Sermon on Mars Hill” in the New Testament Acts:

"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else…

…and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us (Superchristian translation: God is not far from each one of us because he is our “cartoonist” or “puppetmaster”)…

…For in him we live and move and have our being."

(Acts 17:24-27 NIV)

As for the remainder of your post: I agree.

Thanks for your input.

Jay M. Brewer
blog.myspace.com/superchristianity
superchristianity.com

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phenomenal_graffiti-

I guess if Superchristians exist, as an agnostic I would want something like a virtual library. “This man was taken into a facility where which we riddled him with bullets and he wasn’t injured. We took an offer from James Randi for his $1 million and allowed him to see if we’d created a hoax of some kind.” Mind you, satanists could perhaps destroy evidence that’s steadfastly being created by others that want to expose it. Of course, as you said, Superchristians are a theory - with no superchristians yet “discovered” by superchristianity.

Hey, Dan~

I normally shove my nose firmly away from interpretation of biblical and sacred texts. But this was irresistable. It’s like “Jesus meets the Matrix” or something. I just wish there could be different superchristians like the x-men.

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[b]I LOVE the warning! :laughing:

Needless to say, I didn’t read any further.[/b]

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Bane:

And that’s okay. I try to look out for everyone, when I can. This stuff isn’t for everyone. If you feel something stretching your sanity or your requirement for sanity, move on. That’s what I would do in your situation.

Gaiaguerrilla:

The firmest test for the existence of Superchristianity is to “tie down” a so-called Transcendent Deviant in a laboratory, with the media portraying the test to the mass public, and riddle the individual with bullets to see if they pass through, poison the individual to see if he or she simply states: “Tastes just like kool-aid”, or some other test.

However, a Transcendent Deviant (if they exist) would have the attitude of Clark Kent in the television series: “Smallville”. Keep things on the “down low” and just allow “experiments in nature” to do the talking.

Given this, unless you suddenly happen upon such an “imperviousness experiment” by chance, Superchristianity will remain a theory as a more logically and metaphysically possible of entailment of Christianity itself.

And, if the suspicions within the doctrine of SC is true, Satanists are indeed destroying or confusing evidence—biblical and otherwise—that reveals the possible existence of Superchristianity. Indeed, one might claim that the English translation of the Bible is a contrivance of satanism, such that God allows the translation to be an admixture of truth and error in order to allow those that become TDs to discern the difference (with his inspiration).

Good post, man! SC needs testing of it’s logical strength through the analytical criticism of non-believers. It’s good exercise for any religious belief, for those daring enough to go a few rounds in the “boxing ring” of logical analysis.

Jay M. Brewer
superchristianity.com

(This website also contains the short articles: “The Personal Philosophy and Belief of Satan the Devil” and “A Love Letter To The Atheist” as well as the proper book on Superchristianity, which begins with a quote from a Neil Young song)

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So far so hole free.

Round 2 :stuck_out_tongue:

If all you say is true what is the Purpose of Liveing?

If we are just as pupets and have no choice what condemnation besides “Except your Fate” Do people have?

Suicide is a viable answer being as hell is not eternal, (And acording to this would be planed for you anyway) but then this would be hell anyway. as hell is repitition. Haveing the knowledge that you are nothing to anything, Worthless tool used to test the GNP.

I supose in this at least God has mercy on the tool after its used and rather then throwing it away allows them to…Do what?

Thats not been covered yet.

What happens when you are free of the GNP testing?

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Sethesh:

Response: Why not ask the same question given the atheistic proposition that all of our thoughts and choices are governed by physical processes, given that our will, decisions, and choices are believed to be governed by neuronal processes that go on “in the dark” wholly beyond human control?

If God does not exist, then we are still “puppets” of unconscious physical forces and processes.

As the conversation went between a newly-omnipotent Adam Warlock (who gained the Infinity Gauntlet granting him infinite power) and the Mighty Thor after Warlock announced his plans to become “God” within the comic book: The Infinity Gauntlet, by Jim Starlin :

Adam Warlock:“Even before me, you are still lived under a tyranny…”

Thor: "Aye…but it was a benign reign, random and unfocused…

Jay M. Brewer
superchristianity.com

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Ah yes, But thats merly the process by how it happens. To the athiest he is in Controle of himself despite the fact that his neornas fire in the dark. He is the one who controles the impulse to swing his hand. That is a concious effort.

If what you say is true even that small freedom is actualy gods string attached to your arm makeing you stop. From what you say you would truly be a Pupet. Whereas the athiest says at least he has a small freedom. And some freedom is better than none as most would think.

I cant honestly speak in full to that however as I myself am not an “Athiest” so to speak. I have no need of religious beliefes or non- beliefs.

I believe in everything as I believe in an Infinite Universe. So to me what you say and what everyone else says about everything is both true and Untrue existing and non existing at the same time.

But I am decently sure that hte Athiest would indeed agree with what I said concerning his belief.

That still did not answer My question however. You tried to Dodge My bullet, By asking me a question in the form of the answer. :stuck_out_tongue:

So…What is the Purpose of Liveing a Life as a Puppet? Its not really liveing at all…Merly…Suffering needlessly for the purpose of being used as a tool to balance a higher beings equation…Isnt it?

It would seam to me that rather than punishing us for whatever has been done by the Peoples lives we are reliveing. We ourselves should be rewarded by god for being put through it…But thats not how it works. and since we have no choice our choice to worship God or be saved by him really isnt our own anyway. as I am talking to you is already determined by the Real Owner of this Body And I am just a charicter in a fantasy Noval replaying it…In truth…I dont exist save for this Charicter I am playing which…Realy…Isnt…Me…

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Sethesh

Good post, but flawed. Here’s how:

Wrong. You’re assuming that the consciousness of the individual possesses an automatic epiphenomenal freedom apart from neural process. According to the pertinent belief that consciousness is ultimately controlled by the physical processes of the brain, one makes a logical disconnect when one goes on to state: “the neurons fire in the dark…yet it is the person (the consciousness independent of brain structure and function) who controls the impulse to swing his hand.”

According to the pertinent belief, in order to wish to move your hand, or to possess any conscious will, there must exist a brain structure and electrical function that corresponds to that wish or desire. The brain function must fire first—the cart of conscious will does not exist before the “horse” of brain function

If the relevant physical brain function in the frontal lobe that corresponds to a desire to go on a date, or go to a movie, or read a book fails to fire (either through brain dysfunction or alternative selectivity of function, such that the neurons cause us to wish to do something else other than the hypothetical desires presented above)—one cannot experience the relevant desires.

Thus, neural despotism of consciousness according to a purely atheistic view of human will. If one thinks about it, free will (or will that exists independent of dependency upon a certain causal necessity in order for it to exist) does not exist due to it’s causal dependency upon antecedent physical processes.

As stated in the last post above, the below comic book page explains the situation rather well, as an illustrative metaphor of the “tyranny” of the physical over our consciousness (if true):

Starlin, Jim:“The Infinity Gauntlet:The Final Confrontation”, Marvel Comics 1991

My Response: The “purpose” of living life as a puppet at the highest level is “no purpose at all”. This is due to the fact that existence itself, even if one is totally free of higher causal control, is in essence reasonless (one exists for no other reason than that one exists). This is the philosophical principle of Absurdism, and it rules even over the Judeo-Christian God and what that God does.

Regardless of the fact that Theonomous Determinism is true (if it is a truth), and God controls human will and action, it is proposed that, similar to Frederick Hayek’s consideration of how neurons control human will within an atheistic context, we are controlled to “feel” as if we are free (even if we are not due to our constant dependency upon what the neurons accidentally do one from second to the next). Thus God has set things up so that we are not constantly mindful of his control, and as such we cannot “feel” as if there are strings pulling us around.

Given this, if Theonomous Determinism is true, then God at least allows the subjective illusion of freedom. Superchristianity proposes that God is causal mechanism behind human will and action, and that this is OK (by reason of the fact, if it is a fact, that this is just how existence happens to be “set up”) We’re “born” into a universe where it just so happens that we must depend upon this (conscious) mechanism to move or have our being (Acts 17).

Thus, to “pooh-pooh” God’s control over human will makes about as much sense as crying over the control of human will by electromagnetism and gravity through the actions of the neurons of the cerebral cortex within an atheistic context. The only difference in the theological case is that the mechanism is conscious and “calculating” as opposed to purely or blindly mechanical.

Despite the fact that, according to Superchristianity, we are replicas of the imaginary characters within God’s (pre-universe) omniscient mind, we still exist as “ourselves”, in the sense that the external (non-imaginary) “I” or “me” exists on it’s own merit apart from the imaginary character, and I possess a valid existence apart from my imaginary replica based upon my externally subjective essence.

Thus, I am not “negated” due to my being a replication of an imaginary being, any more than I am not negated by the fact that my every conscious manifestation necessitates physical reflection within my physical neocortex of the brain.

My existence speaks for itself as validation of it’s worth despite my being a replica of God’s imagination (one can argue that one’s sense of validity of self is a subjective and a matter of opinion and feeling, such that one can feel that one is truly “oneself” or not, basing this delineation upon an arbitrary “rule” one makes for oneself concerning one’s causal circumstances. Why should we qualify as “ourselves” only if we exist independent a previous template?).

Thus, “I” am the “real owner” (minding Theonomous Determinism) of this body by virtue of the fact that I am here and my “imaginary” twin is not.

Or something.

Jay M. Brewer
superchristianity.com

15

You are also forgetting however, that it is proven concious thought or “will”
Has the ability to produce this Nuronas fireing. Which means infact the want of doing something does indeed produce the resulted action from the body. Example:

Move your arm…NOW.

See. Concious effort caused that action, not a predetermined result of nourons fireing. even if you didnt move your arm the sugestion to do it made you think about it.

Just like typeing here for an example. Is an action that requires concious thought. Free will if you will.

We could not debate such things if we did not have free will. If all our nuronas were fireing in the dark we would be robots, mindless, and souless. Yet here we are debateing something that which each turn requires us to process and think acording to out will.

Going to work for example, geting out of bed, Makeing your self eat. Eating what you like. All exaples of choice or expresions of free will.

The botom line of that being with your theory what we do is predetermined and controled helpless to watch. With the athiest’s it free will.

As to your second post…

I can agree with that comparison.

Even so though, there is no sense in being anything or pretending to be anything since we will already do everything we going to regaurdless of what we want or not or could want or not.

Since aparently we are already whatever we are going to be. why bother trying to give a choice to other to be saved when in fact none will be since there is no choice to begin with?

Its merly your illusion that you have that choice that perhaps you’ll make a diference.

16

I reread it Tortoise,

I am not sure I folow you. But perhaps I have missed something. My argument seams to make Logical sense But I could be wrong, I have been before.

Please explain what you mean it is all to clear. I may have mistyped something or misunderstood the context in general.

17

Sethesh:

Tortoise is implying, based upon your post (given above in my quote of your post above), that you are making an ad hoc pre-supposition that “the cart comes before the horse”. That consciousness magically pops into existence from nowhere, then it somehow “chooses” to cause neurons to fire. The resultant causal consequence of that neural firing, as it seems to follow from your explanation of “free will”----goes nowhere.

It is a matter of pertinent neuroscientific knowledge (based upon very powerful inductive inferences) that consciousness is an effect resulting from the cause of the physical brain due to an abstract pattern of electrical activity within the cerebral cortex.

Studies have been done wherein electrical stimulation of certain parts of the brain are followed instantly by verbal reports of the subject of certain internal experiences.

In your zeal for free will to exist, you’ve gone so far as to suppose that the “baby” of consciousness magically exists independent of the “mother” that is the brain.

As for your second statement:

You keep asking “what is the purpose in being oneself if someone else has predetermined us to be what we are?”

The answer is simple: You simply “be yourself” within your subjective perception and dimension, leaving your predetermined fate and control to the “big boys” of the Judeo-Christian God (if God exists), Existence, and the Law of Cause and Effect.

Once again, as Frederick Hayek noted in his thesis of neural despotism, what our neurons do “in the dark” to give rise to our very next choice, decision, or act of will is simply the machinery of the universe “doing it’s thing”. His advice: let it do it’s thing: worrying about it and psychologically basing one’s perception of self due to whether or not one is controlled by external forces is a waste of one’s time.

If we are controlled by our neurons (if God does not exist), or if we are controlled by God (according to the Superchristianity thesis of Theonomous Determinism), then that’s the nature of the machinery of existence. What’s the point of worrying about the nature of one’s causally dependent predicament, given that this is simply the nature of the world as it so happened to turn out to be?

From one’s perspective “on the ground”, one is controlled in such a way that one is “mindless” of that control, and one is controlled to possess belief that one is free of external control (belief in free will, even if that belief happens to be false).

For example, Superchristianity proposes that God causes (temporary) beliefs such as Atheism and Paganism to instantiate within the minds of a number of his “cartoon characters” in order to give rise to “such a thing as” psychomoral/intellectual evolution…causing an existential situation wherein formerly disbelieving and unknowledgeable minds… “come to a knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4 NIV).

According to the argument given in the previous paragraph, this evolution will seem to the person in question to arise: “within and from oneself”.

If the above is true, then this is simply the way the cookie of the universe crumbles. Our identities will be no more or less what they will be, with or without external causal control.

Jay M. Brewer
superchristianity.com
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