Bell's Theorem - a paradox in reality

The strength of bells theorem is not just that it gave different numbers than local hidden variables would predict. It’s that it gave numbers that would be impossible to explain with local hidden variables. I think a previous post by observr fixated on QM predicting a 7.something percent pass rate compared to local hidden variables predicting 6.something.

I want to make it clear that that itself is not necessarily what Bell’s theorem is about - it’s not just about a couple of different numbers. The meat of the actual point is in the paragraph in my op that starts like this: “These 2500 photons have a problem:”.

The numbers we experimentally get aren’t just different from what local hidden variables would predict, they’re a complete paradox under local hidden variables assumptions.

Yes, that’s the better statement.

This is exactly the same irrationality used in politics to manipulate an uneducated and preoccupied population into believing nonsensical and corrupt policy agendas.

Last week when I started looking for better explanations for Bell’s Inequality I noted something interesting. There are many simple minded analogies given (I think Brian Green’s boxes is the most popular) and they all do the same thing. They all -

  • Propose a simple minded analogy that would yield exact results
  • Declare that when physicists do the real thing in some obscure lab - they get different results
  • Declare that QM had predicted the accurate results.

They never show the relevant details of the actual experiment (where those “hidden variables” hide) and they never show exactly how QM predicted anything.

It is politics/religion - a means to manipulate a population - nothing more.

I think a lot of the problem in science is the system of publishing and job security. If you want to keep your job as a physicist, you better toe the line! The papers that you write and publish better conform to the current fad, or your days are numbered! What drives that? A system that is dominated by politics and religion. A religious physicist is there to promote his religious based ideas, that support his beliefs. Is a religious scientist working on a new theory that would put to rest his outdated religious beliefs? Hell no. He’s there to promote ideas that support his religious beliefs. If religious people at the top are overseeing what is published and what is not, which papers do you think they will publish, the ones that support his religious beliefs, or the ones that destroy his beliefs? That’s a no brainer there!

Change only happens when people change. Change in science and religion happens when the old gatekeepers die off, and the next generation takes over. Very very slowly, the new generations bring new ways. Look at the church, now. They now changed their policies towards gay marriage and the likes. Why did they change? The old died off and the new are slightly, and I mean very slightly more accepting towards the new world we live in. They know that they have to jump on the band wagon, or their funding from society dries up! If they didn’t change, they would parish like a Mom and Pop hardware store does when the new Home Depot comes to town!

The above two posts are so egregiously idiotic that is difficult to understand why no one has even bothered to point out this fact and refute them, or why they have not already been moderated out of existence by the stated rules of this board.

Pood, actually they are smart posts.

Maybe not written the way you would have preferred.

Yes, I would have preferred that they were not moronic stupidity.

But that’s just me.

Fun fact everyone: the 2022 Nobel prize winners for physics won the award in part for their contributions in research towards Bell’s Theorem, further solidifying our scientific evidence that Bells Inequalities are indeed violated in a “spooky action at a distance” sort of way.

I think that’s pretty freaking cool!

The Nobel Prize in Physics 2022 was awarded to Alain Aspect, John F. Clauser and Anton Zeilinger “for experiments with entangled photons, establishing the violation of Bell inequalities and pioneering quantum information science”. Their results have cleared the way for new technology based upon quantum information.
nobelprize.org/prizes/physics/

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Bell’s Theorem, explained ‘proper’.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcqZHYo7ONs[/youtube]

And it hasn’t improved.

Isn’t it obvious enough that the filters being used do more than merely block unaligned photons? If they had all been blocked by the first 2 filters - there would be nothing left to see or be made visible.

You already know that photons bend their travel vector when encountering masses. Doesn’t it seem probable that they would also distort their polarity while encountering mass objects - such as “filters” - how could they not?

Also photons of opposing polarity could - and very probably do - cancel their visibility - even though still present. This allows for an additional filter to cause the visibility and sight of photons that were previously countered into invisibility by partially blocking some of the counter-polarity (that third filter effect).

The probability of anything has nothing at all to do with the reality of anything other than your ability to guess at it.

It all seems like such a game of fraudulent manipulation of the uneducated and non-thinking masses and completely UN-scientific.

“Watch this true-story video documentary of a scientist pulling a rabbit out of his hat.
Isn’t it mystical!!

Couldn’t this mean that inserting a middle filter at 45 degrees means you are re-orienting the photons closer to the orientation of the filtering mechanism of B, hence now some of them are able to vary from their vector in such a way as to allow some of them to now pass through filter C whereas before filter B was inserted this would have been impossible, since the variance in the vector could only approach 90 degrees but never actually hit it?

-------> (A) --------> b[/b] --------> (B)

For example, the photon is a “wave-like particle”. It may be particle-like but it represents a finite quantity of energy bounded up in a wave traveling as a vector; this wave is oscillating in two directions or along two dimensions, an x and y axis. Both x and y are perpendicular to one another in orientation, as how waves naturally propagate. Now we also know that the energy inside the wave is not localized or “collapsed” into a point-like particle unless it is forced to do that by some “observation” taken of it, namely by the wave impacting something else that forces the energy to collapse from its wave-form into a more particle-like (non-waving) form.

Filter A is allowing only photons to pass through which happen to be oriented in the same direction as the filtering mechanism. However, if there is also a probability that for a photon which isn’t exactly oriented this way but it will still pass through the filter anyway, because the manner of its wave-function collapsing actually ends up re-orienting the x-y axes in such a way as now lines up with the filtering mechanism, then we can see that some light can get through the filter even though it wasn’t exactly oriented in line with A to begin with, but was “close enough” given the probabilities involved having to do with how its wave was collapsing. The probability of this happening would be greater the closer the orientation of the wave-function is to the orientation of the filtering mechanism at the time of impact. So, some photons are getting through even though they were not originally oriented exactly aligned with the filtering mechanism.

This does mean that the light having passed through the filter is now homogenized in such a way that every photon that has passed through is now aligned in the same way as all other photons that passed through. Being now “unobserved” they become more wave-like or remain wave-like. This also assumes the photons keep their orientation between filter A and B (they don’t spin around to find new orientations, which would defeat the function of the filter entirely hence doesn’t seem to be the case (but see * below)).

The same situation occurs with filter B as it did with filter A, only this time all the photons going to filter B are pre-aligned, which wasn’t the case with filter A. Now filter B is a perfect expression of the probability of a photon not perfectly aligned with the filtering mechanism in B having its wave-function collapse in such a way as to happen to reorient it and allow it to pass through B anyway. Basically, if its orientation is already very close to that of the filtering mechanism, so tiny perturbations in precisely how that wave is changing/collapses allows it to assume the orientation needed to pass through the filter anyway. This becomes less probable the greater the difference in orientation is between a given photon arriving at B and the filtering mechanism of B, culminating in an impossibility of being able to pass through B if B is exactly perpendicular to the orientation of the incoming photon (because the wave cannot probabilistically collapse in such a way as to shift its orientation completely from x onto y, because x and y represent polarities or exact opposite dimensions within the structure of the wave). And it becomes less likely that x will shift toward y the closer this would end up coming to y.

This explains why adding filter C in the middle would allow light to move through B whereas without C being present then no light would move through C. What C does is reorient the orientation of the light closer to the filtering mechanism of B, namely to within 45 degrees instead of within 90 degrees. And this isn’t a perfect 75% increase because of the curvature of the probability index being circular in nature (it has to do with how the photon’s wave orientation is rotating: instead of a point going down in both directions like a triangle, you have a point going down in both directions in a gradual curve that becomes steeper the further out it goes, like a bell curve). This explains why there is more area under the curve as the orientation of the photon is rotating compared to the area under the curve might be if we were simply assumed a numerical mid-point between 0 degrees and 45 degrees.

*Note that an alternate explanation exists for if we don’t want to imagine the process of encounter or wave-collapse as being something subject to a possibility of that encounter/collapse happening to change the orientation of the wave in such a way as happens to allow it to pass through the filter anyway. You can instead think about the wave as already having a natural variation/change in its orientation as it passes through space on its own (before it arrives at the next filter). This change in its orientation could be probabilistic in the sense of being essentially chaotic or idiosyncratic and unpredictable, subject to tiny influences impossible for us to map and know but which can cause the wave to change slightly its orientation as it moves through space on its own. This change would, however, theoretically be unable to cause such a significant change in orientation as to allow x to completely map onto where y is, so the probability that the orientation will change a lot is less than that the orientation will change a little. Or, the variation or change in the orientation of the wave as it is traveling between filters is more like a probabilistic effect that only materializes once the wave is forced to collapse and become more particle-like.

One thing to note, if the filter C is instead added before A or after B rather than inserted in the middle between A and B, and the same effect is observed as when C is put between A and B, then I would need to re-think all of this. But the video made it seem like the 45 degree tilted filter C needed to be added between A and B to produce this effect.

You still aren’t understanding what the paradox is. You think Bell’s Theorem is just a statement about QM’s probability predictions, and pointing out that the experiments have the same probability that QM predicts – that’s not it. That’s not it. That’s literally the least interesting part of Bell’s Theorem.

There’s a genuine paradox in Bell’s Theorem, under the naive assumptions of how the spins being measured work. Not just ‘the statistics are different’, but ‘the statistics are logically unexplainable, even in principle, under these assumptions’.

If you assume that at the moment the entangled photons go their separate ways, their ‘spin’ is set (but just unmeasured, uknown, but still true deep down), you cannot get the results measured.

As long as you keep thinking about the experiment as just a matter of raw probabilities, and not an actual paradox, you will continue to have this response to bell’s theorem.

Paradoxes do not actually exist in reality, though. When we see a paradox it means we do not yet understand what is going on.

The weird impression people get about QM is that it seems to be claiming that paradoxes (seemingly unsolvable contradictions) actually somehow exist in reality. Which is clearly impossible. So QM should either do a better job explaining itself in non-mystifying ways, or it should do a better job working out these so-called paradoxes in order to come to a proper understanding.

Imagine seeing a paradox and then be like “oh I guess that’s just how reality is” and not even being able to realize that the appearance of a paradox (seemingly unsolvable contradiction) is already an indication that you are doing something wrong or you have an insufficient paradigm or understanding.

Right, the idea isn’t that the paradox is real, the idea is that the paradox outrules one possible way of seeing the world, because that way of seeing the world creates a paradox, and the paradox can’t be real.

You’ve misinterpreted the paradox in this context.

That’s the opposite of what’s happening. Bell’s Theorem points out the paradox in one point of view to show that, if experimentally born out, that point of view cannot be true.

Don’t take the title extremely literally. The point of the title is that the thing that Bell’s Theorem proves is paradoxical is a part of the general, intuitive world view.

If by Bell’s Theorem you’re talking about that thing where light passes through the two 90 degree perpendicular polarizing lenses if you put a third lens in the middle of them at 45 degrees, then I don’t see any reason why that’s unusual or supposed to be paradoxical. The middle lens is re-aligning the photons within range of being able to now pass through the final filter, which otherwise without being realigned like that they wouldn’t be able to do. Isn’t that all that’s going on here? Please explain what I’m missing.

No, I’m not talking about that specific thing. Bell’s Theorem is about entangled particles and how they correlate to each other when measured at different angles.

So not this?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=zcqZHYo7ONs

That’s literally called Bell’s Theorem too. Are there more than one?

That’s a 17 minute video. You’re fixating on the first 2 minutes. The first 2 minutes isn’t what Bell’s Theorem is fundamentally about.

I would love to know the quantum nuts & bolts of how they tell the difference between two particle/wave patterns (ARE they really two? how do they KNOW/DETERMINE that?) in order to conclude they are BOTH distant AND entangled.

I mean. Those things. Tweezers. Eyeballs. Ain’t gonna cut it. Are we talking data printouts? Cuz you know what they say about evidence & its interpretation.