I need a book recommendation on complexity and systems. Not something so light as to float away, but not so heavy as to require a degree in mathmatics to understand. Think of me as an idiot with aspirations.
It’s probably not exactly what you’re looking for, but I keep meaning to read Freakonomics. Friend of mine swears by it.
I looked at that on Amazon, but I’ve read both the Undercover Economist books, as well as “fooled by randomness” and “black swan” - I’ve a feeling freakonomics would be pretty much more of the same principles. But thanks for making the recommendation. What do you read…?
Tab, I have no book recommendations for you, but was just wondering if you’re familiar with Manuel Lima at all? He did a TED talk on Visual Complexity that I watched not too long ago.
The talk wasn’t exactly educational, but his website might be right up your alley. At least, it made me think of you as I was exploring some of the projects. 
Some very cool ways of interpreting and disseminating huge amounts of data/patterns/networks through visual design.
It might be old news to you, but if not, check it out. Some of the projects are pretty fluffy, but some I thought were really interesting, like one that focused on the neural network:
Sorry for side-tracking the topic a bit, I know you’re looking for books here, I just thought his work on complex systems seems pretty innovative.
Complexity…try “The Emotional Life of the Human Female” by Ida Noah Thaiwant.
Way back when I knew something, Niclas Luhmann impressed me (General Systems Theory). Risk: A Sociological Theory (I think) was a good quick read.
Right now I’m reading some Nietzsche and Emerson. As far as complex systems go…well, I gave Richard Scarry’s What Do People Do All Day? five stars…as well as Caro’s Book of Poker Tells.
If you like/play poker, it’s actually somewhat related. Not pure mathematics, but a lot of statistics on human behavior. They call Mike Caro the Mad Genius of Poker.
Freakonomics is pretty good. I can email it if you’d like. When you say “complexity and systems”? I’m not sure exactly what you mean.
A book I have come to mind though, it’s called “polarity, dialectic and organicity”, and it’s by a dude named archie bahm. Might be interesting.
I read Freakonomics and while it is an amusing book it won’t teach an intelligent person anything they didn’t already realise about statistics.
I haven’t read these but a buddy who is into this stuff recommended:
Hidden Order: How Adaptation Builds Complexity by John Holland
Emergence: The Connected Lives of Ants, Brains, Cities, and Software by Steven Johnson
Complexity: The Emerging Science at the Edge of Order and Chaos by M. Mitchell Waldrop
Another book to consider, though less directly related to the subject at hand would be Baudrillard’s Simulacra and Simulation and Foucault’s The Order of Things (maybe Archeology of Knowledge but that one gets way off topic). If we are looking at systems, it is good to consider our relationship to those systems as well!
I read all or quite a bit of a long time ago. I liked it a lot at the time. I tried reading Gödel, Escher, Bach during this same time period, but it was too difficult for me.
I bet you could read godel escher bach now. I was gonna suggest that one actually, but the Bahm book was a bit more philosophical I think. GEB would probably be a better read. I like how the dude breaks shit down to like the tortoise and the hare and all that.
If I remember correctly I liked the intro a lot. Then it got kind of mathematical…
I read the intro, then it got mathematical, then I read a ton of David Lewis and talked to Faust about logic, then I went back and lot of the mathematical parts made sense.
Between David Lewis and Faust, nothing can’t be understood.
I mean, I think the whole point of the book is that recursion is inevitable.
You’ve got the whole law of identity thing at the basis of formal knowledge, and since you can learn only so much about thing by comparing and contrasting them w/ other things, you eventually have to just say, “it is what it is”. The problem is that at that point you end up saying something that doesn’t seem to convey much information. But the beauty of it is is that what you’re saying is totally true. It’s a tautology, or an instance of identity at which the most perfect knowledge is conveyed.
The joke I’ve read is that "to understand recursion, you must first understand recursion.
Hey, that’s pretty helpful actually. Thanks Smears. I might look at that book again.
Cheers Anita, I’ll have a look at it after I’ve finished being globally appreciative of everyone’s posts. 
S’funny, I amazoned the hell outta that one for an hour straight. Couldn’t find it anywhere… 
Oughtist - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Risk-Sociological-Theory-Communication-Social/dp/0202307646/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267126757&sr=1-6 this one…?
Anthem, I so hope you have a son or daughter that you’re reading that book by R Scarry to…
Just ordered it second hand from Amazon. Thanks Smears. I’m quietly betting it’ll go straight over my head, just from the title. Newsflash: Nope, the bastards won’t ship it to Turkey.
Anon, thanks for the recommendation - Unfortunately Amazon UK ain’t got it, and Amazon USA won’t ship it second hand.
“godel escher bach”. One of those books that just scares the crap outta me. I dunno, it’s big, expensive and might hurt me if it hit me on the head.
Well think about the big ol arguments that everyone always has. Religion = polarity, Social Issues = take place in the form of a dialectic.
Now you were looking for two things, complexity, which you see you can tell is there just from the title, and systems, which is was organicity is all about.
Systems , (the kind I think you’re thinking about), are usually some kind of abstraction intended to organize phenomena. I’ll admit that I read that book selectively and with some guidance, but it would definitely make us all smarter if we went over it all together.
If you can’t get it shipped to turkey, have it shipped to me, then I’ll ship it to you. Or…you may be able to get a .pdf version, but it might require some searching. Try googling gutenberg project.
Here’s one!
Cheers, I’ll stick some money into paypal and order it when I’ve finished the other ones - looks awfully philosophic though… Maybe on second thoughts I’ll hunt down the pdf. version. Basically, if I didn’t have two children sucking up all my spare cash and free time, I’d read everything, but as it is, eh. fatherhood really fucking bites sometimes.
Thanks for getting in touch with your friend Xunzian, and the time you spent on my behalf.
No way, man. I actually haven’t read the book in years, but I’d still give it five stars.
Yeah, that’s the problem with books – they are outdated by the time they are published and a decade later? Forget about it!
If you have any names, I could try and dig up some more recent papers.