Buddhism on the roof of the world...

Hi everyone,

I have been thinking about taking a trip to the Himalayas. Tibet, Bhutan, and Nepal seem absolutely fascinating to me.

I would like to learn more about the Buddhism in the Himalayan region of the world. I know that Buddhism, as with all religions, varies greatly from area to area and nation to nation. I am agnostic (almost atheist) and will not be a stupid westerner attempting to become a buddhist. But I want to have a proper understanding of the religion and the thinking of the culture.

What are your best recommendation on books or even DVDs that give a good foundation of the basic theology and belief system of Buddism and more particularly, the Buddhism practiced by the monks on the roof of the world?

Picture: The Tiger’s Nest Temple in Bhutan

In the eighth century, Guru Rinpoche, who introduced Buddhism to Bhutan, came to this rocky lip; the miraculous Taktshang Goemba monastery was built around the cave in which the guru meditated for three months. Through the gates a monk takes you to the shrine where, after a prayer and blessing, you peer through a golden door to see the guru’s dank meditation cave. He flew to this place in one of his eight manifestations, that of Guru Dorji Dlo, on the back of a flaming tiger, hence its name, Tiger’s Nest.

Steeped in Mahayana Buddhism, the Kingdom of Bhutan lived in self-imposed isolation for much of the 20th century, until the early '70s when it began allowing in a handful of visitors. Annual tourism figures are rising: about 9000 visited in 2004 and next year 15,000 arrivals are forecast. Conscious of the potential impact of tourism, every effort is being made by the tourist industry to respect Bhutanese cultural values and leave a light ecological footprint.

Text from gourmet.ninemsn.com.au/gourmettr … ion156.asp

No recommendations on researching Mahayana Buddhism?

If you are seeking Mahayana I recommend India and the varying alterations up to I believe Pure Land in Japan. Simply follow the curve around the Himalayans. As for the Tibetans and the land of Nepal I recommend reading about Dzogchen Buddhism this is the more prevalent type in the area.

As far as books: For Dzogchen “Awakening the Buddha Within” is a great start. My time has been mostly spent examining Zen or Chan Buddhism so I certainly do not profess much knowledge of Mahayana but I do believe in the U.S. there are dozens of monasteries scattered throughout the U.S. I know in NY (where I live) there are at least Dzogchen and Zen ones.

Well, you should read Shantideva and Nagarjuna. But I think that at least Nagarjuna should be required reading for any well-rounded philosopher and Shantideva is a must for anyone with an interest in (Mahayana) Buddhism.

But, for specifics, why not get it from the Horse’s mouth, so to speak, and pick up a book by the Dalai Lama? He’s written a fair amount, and most of them are designed for a Western non-Buddhist audience so they don’t get bogged down in details.

Hardcore Zen is a fun book, but it is about Japanese Buddhism, so no real help there. Geri Larkin’s books are also pretty fun and accessible, but again, those deal with how an American practitioner deals with Korean Zen in America . . . so not quite what you are looking for in this case.

Nagarjuna is not introductory Buddhism. I agree that the Dalai Lama’s books are fine for introductions to Westerners, although they’re often watered down from specifics of Tibetan practice for the western palate. But still, he’s a good source of basic information. If you want introductory books, I’d suggest Buddhism 101 stuff and don’t worry about particular traditions.

“A Simple Path: Basic Buddhist Teachings by His Holiness the Dalai Lama”
“What the Buddha Taught” by Walpola Rahula is generally accepted as one of the better basic books.

Or save some money. Lots of stuff on the Net, too. Here’s a few:

http://www.buddhanet.net/
http://www.buddhim.20m.com/
http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Buddhism.htm

My advice:

What ever you do… DONT let a westerner try to teach you Buddhism, ever! :laughing:

If you’re going the Tibetan route, you are going to encounter some who believe in alternate dimensions. They all believe in rebirth, too. In physics, we know that energy is invincible. But, taking that a step farther, and seeing the mind as a sort of energy, we could then see how it finds itself in more than one body and more than one life during the elemental recycling of the universe. Some will speak of hell-realms, god-realms, and “pure-lands”, etc.

Since you’re “Almost atheist”, I don’t think you’d really like those certain ideas that I listed, so you may instead want to just check out Zen, because that’s allot less theistic. For example, I have seen many Zen teachers claiming or saying that if you ever have visions or experiences with things such as spirits, those are just illusions and you should ignore them, etc. That’s more close to the atheist idea that anything “paranormal” is a hollucination, so the atheist types, I guess would gravitate towards Zen, more often…

But Buddhism, at the root, (in some schools) may eventually appear simple, and that would be like this:

“Sit down, shut up, pay attension to yourself, calm down, and work to understand the moment completely. Everyone around you has a life and has feelings. If it was not for the work and love of some people in the passed, many good things would not even exist today in your life. The world needs compassion and so do you.”
:laughing:

Thanks for all of your responses and keep em coming. You can talk about anything you like regarding Buddhism. In particular, about westerners learning Buddhism. For one, I can never escape my background and origins. In other words, I will always be a westerner learning about the east.

I wanted to be clear that I am seeking an understanding of the belief system, and a history of the culture and religious origins. In this, my thoughts and outlook on life, religion, etc. may change but at the same time, I will not throw away the logic, reason, understanding, etc. that I have come to grasp through my pursuit of philosophy. So I guess I’m saying that I’ll have as open of a mind as I can, yet I won’t let go of certain fundamentals and ideals that I consider important; such as logic, reason, etc.

So you see, it is not that I will “like” one type of Buddhism more than another. I want to understand the differences between them. I can certainly agree with one particular ideal over another, one doctrine over another. However, my goal is not to end up on a side, but to have a fairly well rounded understanding of the basics of different sects. :unamused:

I am always so impressed with non westerners that have such a deep understanding of Christianity, it’s tenets, history, and pitfalls/failures. I am impressed with Atheists that have a very good understanding of different religions. Using logic and reason, it is as much fun to defeat an atheist in an argument, as it is to defeat a theist. If you are a theist, I will attack it for the many failures theism has. If you are an atheist, I will attack you for the many failures atheism has. Every system fails at some point. (By the way does anyone have the, or a, quote of Hegel concerning how all systems fail at some point? I’m always referencing it and I don’t know if I’m really referencing anything!) [-X

Many of the Western teachers have trained extensively in the east. As well, the ordained who come here from the East find that they need to accomodate their methods to the cultural differences. Buddhism has, as have most other traditions, migrated over the centuries to a variety of cultures and has evolved in accordance with the lives of the people it touches. It’s movement into the west is no different.

I’d be surprised if the Buddhists you’ll encounter in the countries you’re visiting would regard your interest in that way.

You’ve expressed an interest in studying the subject some, so that you’ll feel better prepared to understand the cultures of the places you’re visiting. That’s wise, it’ll no doubt enhance your experience. However, you might want to keep in mind that Buddhism’s primarily about practice, it’s doing rather than believing. Belief is something that Buddhist practitioners may use at the earlier stages of the path for inspiration and motivation (like a belief in the truth of the Buddha’s enlightenment, for example), but the practice itself is designed to help one recognize the illsory nature of belief and to progress to a point where illusion falls away. This is what distinguishes it from the Abrahamic religions and why, in fact, some don’t consider it to be a religion in the strictest sense of the word. My point in noting this is that because it is practice-based, it makes sense for you to familiarize yourself with the different ways that it’s practiced. On the other hand, the fundamentals are always the same, the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, the precepts and paramitas (the ethics or values). A basic understanding of these would be helpful as you look at the various traditions, with their distinct rituals and iconography and methods of teaching, all of which are naturally influenced by each tradition’s country of origin (Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Tibetan, Southeast Asian).

Another reason I’m noting the ‘practice’ emphasis arises from my own experience. After many years, my emphasis on the ‘sacred’ in terms of all the bells and whistles is much less (although when I’m in community with other Buddhists, I find meaning in doing it) and has become much more about understanding and freeing my mind and also about being engaged practically as best I can to help reduce suffering in the world around me. So if one approaches Buddhism only in terms of gaining an intellectual understanding, chances are he’ll get frustrated. Eventually, he’ll hit the wall by encountering the paradoxical nature of existence. This is the human condition, it’s certainly not limited to Buddhist experience. I practice as I do because the Buddha offered what works for me as a practical means of understanding life. But those means are meditation and mindfulness. It’s part and parcel of it, reading, study and reflection isn’t enough. This is, IMO, one of the great challenges for us Westerners, because our philosophical traditions are based on intellect as the means of resolving the Big Questions. We think dualistically, even when it comes to the opposite poles of ‘logic’ versus ‘religious belief’. When I referred to Eastern teachers accomodating us, this is a barrier that they often mention.

It’s certainly not for everyone. I’m mentioning it so that you’ll have some sense of what underlies the rituals and symbols that you encounter, it’s the unseen inner landscape. One of the fundamental aspects of practice is that it allows a deep look at our attachments (including to ideas like logic and philosophy, for example) and leads to a better understanding of what that’s about. We learn about attachment and how it causes suffering, so the thing or the person or the idea attached to isn’t as important. One doesn’t ‘give up’ things out of some sense of righteousness or morality of self conquering, we simply let go of attachment to things as understanding deepens. The things don’t go anywhere, we see them differently, with improved clarity. And this detachment doesn’t mean that one no longer feels emotions, it’s instead about the mind becoming broader or more vast, in a sense, so that destructive emotional swings are diffused and there’s more of a sense of equanimity and perspective.

For what it’s worth… :slight_smile:

Thank you for the excellent post Ingenium!

I agree, religion/culture is always evolving, changing, and adapting. The Buddhists that practice in the east now are not the same as their ancestors that practiced 1,000 years ago. I often use this example in terms of generations. I am more similar in thinking and culture to someone my age on the opposite side of the world than I am to someone who lived where I live even 100 years ago. Know what I mean?

I think this is one of Buddhism’s greatest strengths and weaknesses at the same time. I can really appreciate “living the life” sort of mentality about Buddhism. One of, I think, the coolest things about many of the teachers of Buddhism is that they teach us to not follow what they say word for word. There is illusion. Don’t take everything at face value. I really appreciate this about Buddhism because there is greater emphasis on the teacher/disciple relationship rather than on doctrine. Yet, a primary concept that the teacher teaches is, “Don’t take everything I say at face value. Read between the lines but ultimately you’ll have to discover for yourself.” Buddhism is a self journey wherein you must “pick yourself up by your own bootstraps” so to speak as the Buddha did all on his own. While this is good, it is also physically impossible to ACTUALLY pick yourself up by your own bootstraps. Hee hee… :laughing:

Or rather, by focusing on yourself, you can reduce the relative appearance of suffering in the world around you. Bottom line is, the appearance of suffering is relative. It doesn’t exist if there is no ‘experiencer’ experiencing life. See what I mean? Suffering isn’t something that can be created or destroyed, increased or decreased, it is relative to each observer. It reminds me of a quote from Albert Camus; “You cannot acquire experience by making experiments. You cannot create experience. You must undergo it.” This sound like Buddhism in a way: You must practice and experience. (I have more to say regarding suffering. I’m going to do a longer post titled “A short expose on suffering…” I’ll post the link on this thread once I get around to writing it.)

It is interesting. As a westerner and analytic philosopher, I feel that nothing can be outside the bounds of logic. There is logic and illogic, and nothing between. Definitely why westerners, or people in general, have trouble with religions, because at some point they will find logical contradictions.

By the way, in terms of Cartesian Dualism (mind/soul/spirit vs. body/physical), Buddhists are as much dualists as Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and Jews. In one of John Searle’s lectures on Mind, he talks of how he was on a speaking panel with the Dalai Lama. He noted that the Lama’s speech was, “Straight Descartes” [referring to how it was outright straight forward dualism]

Well explained! Attachment and suffering have everything to do with identity and self. If we realize that there is ‘no self’, we quickly see the impact on personal attachment, suffering, etc. However, we are always brought back to self, or at least the appearance of it. If we did not have the experience of self, then we would not exist. Experience IS self. It is impossible to ‘experience’ without ‘self’. This paradox or impossibility of trying to experience the world without self is one reason in which I know that I will never become a Buddhist. Or at least I know that I won’t reach enlightenment before I die. :wink: The dualism is another one of the primary reasons I won’t become a Buddhist. :sunglasses:

To clarify one point, it’s mind that experiences, not ‘self’. This is an important distinction in Buddhism. What’s missing in your statement is some understanding of shunyata, or emptiness. Not conceptually, but experientially. Nagarjuna (who’s my main influence) teaches of ‘two truths’: conventional reality, where you operate dualistically as ‘self’ versus ‘others’, and ultimate reality, where there’s no separation. It’s dualistic out of necessity, meaning that they co-exist, but only from this conventional perspective, the realm in which we communicate via language.

youtube.com/watch?v=ltwxC19s5u8

Interesting… I’ll let your post sink in a little more before I really respond. But for starters, I think we are thinking different things when each of us uses the word dualism. I am refering particularly to dualism with regards to philosophy of the mind. Specificially, Cartesian Dualism.

I believe in a monist ontology. There is only one thing. I find that dualism and pluralism just make things more confusing. You mentioned, “mind that experiences, not ‘self’.” What is a ‘self’? and what is a ‘mind’? I don’t believe the mind is a non-physical thing. There is only physical reality, there are not spirits, and there no such thing as non-physical or meta-physical matter. There is what is, and nothing outside it. When the Dalai Lama spoke of mind as being a non-physical entity, or there being two realms (physical and whatever-else), he was using a dualistic ontology.

“Denial can be an ugly thing…”
I forgot what happens before that scene.
Are you hinting at making a point?

After failing to save a raccoon in a climbing accident, the depressed Ace commits his life to the monastery so that he might achieve super-galactic omnipresent oneness, but is later hired to recover a sacred bat from a thief, so he leaves the monastery.

No. “Hinting” is for poets, members of cults, cowards in general, and people who cannot speak clearly.

I have been on an Ace Ventura campaign since yesterday, and am posting clips at my leisure.

Please add to the discussion.
Posting a video clip just because the Tiger’s Nest temple reminds you of Ace Ventura is not appreciated.

What do you think of “super-galactic omnipresent oneness”?
Stupid? impossible? Do you think Buddhism silly?

Of course. How selfish of me. Let’s do all the things that you want to do.

It takes eighty years to achieve, and you get a medallion when you finish.

Not at all. It is my favorite religion. Nihilistic, but interesting nonetheless. It all started with a bourgeois prince entering into voluntary homelessness where he noticed the poverty stricken lifestyles of the lower classes. Eventually, he thought up a bunch of metaphysical stuff and metaphors, but originally, his crusade was simple; he realized that the despots were lying thieves and he wanted to get the hell outta there.

Everything that has ever happened in this universe is intricately related to the dialectic of historical materialism. There is a Marxist answer for any question that will ever exist. And for every Marxist answer, there are one hundred idiots asking the wrong questions. We are, if you haven’t noticed, quite overwhelmed.

youtube.com/watch?v=jUxQni-gSnk

:confused: “Loser… Looooser…”

:laughing: There is also an idiot answer for any question that will ever exist. For every idiotic question, there are thousands of idiotic marxist answers. :laughing:

Not nihilistic. It’s a philosphy of ‘emptiness’, which is not the same as the western conception of nothingness.

He noticed the poverty before he decided to leave the palace.

He awakened to the nature of his existence (conditioned) and was therefore liberated from his state of suffering.

He realized that all sentient beings exist in a state of suffering, and that the main ingredients of this existence were greed, hatred and delusion.

No disagreement with the point, only with the reasons for it. Marxism considers the essential movement of this dialectic to be toward perfection. The Buddha considered the movement directionless, a dissolution in terms of conditioned existence.

This applies to any philosophical doctrine. It’s just easier with the western ones, because you never have to move beyond your basic dualism. I’d envy you that ease, except that it’s so unreal.