Capitalism vs. Communism

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
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regardless of what you hear many of them LIKE being doctors. I asked my dentist… I mean that too me is a nasty job some people’s teeth are absolutely disgusting. But he says he likes taking something dirty and making it clean. More power too him!

and recognition will promote people to work harder how? I don’t expect you to get it, you’ve probably never sat in a leather seat of a high end car.

because they didn’t work hard to get where they are.

how boring is life if your just “getting by”… seriously? Imagine just “getting by” never being able to afford to take a vacation to some far away place, never being able to afford that plush car. Never able to afford the things that drive you.

the problem with communism is it removes the drives of god and money and replaces them with emptiness. Sorry that doesn’t work as we’ve seen.

NOTE: I said THEY THINK, they are not victims. If they want a better life they are within their means to make it possible. Everything I have I’ve worked my ass off for. I grew up in a poor family with a father exactly as I described in #1. I love the man, but I don’t love his actions. It aspired me to have more in my life, and already I do. It aspired me to not live paycheck to paycheck.

and already I don’t. If you don’t want to be a victim, you have the power in this country to NOT BE A VICTIM.

Tell me why they shouldn’t have to work there ass off to get a better position in life? they didn’t have to become the school janitor or the garbage man. They could have studied in class and went to college. They could’ve stayed after when the boss asked. They could’ve applied themselves IN SOME WAY.

They’ve done none of those things and as such are poor.

WRONG, I’ve escaped the box drawn for me. And yes it was hard. It is harder for someone coming from low class to go up class I’ll admit that. BUT IT IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE. With communism it doesn’t matter because no matter what you aspire to be you’ll make as much as johnny q. lazy.

It doesn’t matter if you aspire to have a bigger house. You won’t even own your house OR your car. the government will. When you pass away, you can’t pass on anything to your family so they’ll be in the same position you were. you have no rights to a will.

I never said that the system was perfect. remember my first post here? I said "both systems have problems.

The problems with capitalism is that it is hard to get a break. But that doesn’t mean if your in a position to help someone starting that you can’t help. I’ve seen several people who have made it willing to help out those who are starting their own business.

and like I said when I can I do help those in need. The problem with communism and socialism is that you aren’t given a choice to help others. it’s part of the de facto state.

exactly my sentiments towards socialism and communism.

while it’s a nice idea that everyone be equal it just has TOO MANY PROBLEMS to work in reality.

look in the mirror my friend.

do you read what I write? or just spew capitalism is crap all day?

While I hate the way Bill Gates does business, I admire what he’s done for the poor in this country.

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thirst4metal:

  1. I’ve already adressed the myth of meritocracy in capitalism
  2. What economic system there is in thailand?
  3. How much is it useful to condone the debt when those countries have to indebit themselves again in order to import energy and prime materials.

Don’t trust human ethology. It is unsound from a scientific point of view and it is mostly a tentative to connaturate the categories of the capitalist system.

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T4M I actually completely agree with you for once.

I never said I agree 100% with the way capitalism runs, that is a perfect example.

I would also agree with that, i don’t think anyone needs to make so much as lets say the CEO of GE that makes 48+ million a year. A salary cap is perfectly reasonable, and if the company does have more money than the salary cap it should trickle down through the company. that would help everyone.

the fact of the matter is our lives our easy no matter what role or hat we put on. just 150 years ago, they were working 16 hour days regularly. Now we complain about 6 - 8 hour days being long.

well that was partial sarcasm. I realize that those problems will happen, the end result is we will have (those in those jobs being replaced) to find different jobs. Wired had a good story about that, that we will have to switch from being left brain to right brain. more artistic jobs and things will be craved.

T4M answered this in a nice long post.

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  1. Even if they were 16 hours a day I still would not take the mcdonald job for no matter what amount.

  2. I don’t believe T4M answered to my last sentence. He just insistedon cheap meritocracy on valuing a person by his earnings. An arbitrary standard based, again, on the belief of a perfect system that always retributes the right.

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I wanted to become a doctor, the problem? I didn’t have the drive to accomplish this… otherwise I would have been a great doctor. The opportunity was certainly there… I just didn’t take it. That is what capitalism offers, the opportunity to do as you please.

If you are happy where you are you don’t need more pay. Satisfaction is the key here… think about that.

They are victims because they do not rise above their calamities and their oppressors. This is something that Islam teaches (so I understand from a knowledgeable scholar that is my friend). I did it, some friends did it, others CAN do it.

The lust for wealth is the nature of man. Jesus made it clear that men store treasures for themselves on Earth when they should store them in Heaven… if only god would actually exist–I could then preach this. Until then I guess it is survival of the fittest.

Which is proof of the greatness of capitalism :smiley: After all, I bet even though you get paid $2,000/hour you still can’t afford the same thing that I can PAYING you that money.

I think I will drive home in my Ferrari now to feed on the misery of others… :lol:

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What do you have against this thread?

Can you let others have their chance?

Smart allic-ky remark?

Agreed. :smiley:

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I want to clarify something, because I believe SkytheCain quoted me and went on to get attacked (in the kindest sense of the word) for something I wrote, but did not necessarily mean. (his interpretation).

When I said that

I meant that, unless I am mistaken, there should arise a point in time when control of the means of production is shifted from the few who have sheparded the Revolution in any particular society and is given to its rightful owners, the proletariat.

This has never once happened. Ever. My argument is, human nature is such that power corrupts. This is the same thinking that lead to the founding fathers seperating and placing checks on government power. The more centralized power and authority is, the more corrupting it becomes.

What has always happened in communist regimes as they transition to power, the symbolic or actual head of the revolution is also the head of the party apparatus. Once in power, said leader maintains power up to his death.

Even a socialist, George Orwell, would make this abundantly clear in his novel, Animal Farm. Communist Revolutions can have the greatest intentions in the world. As a practical matter, they wind up as yet another totalitarian state.

What does the average worker or serf have in common then with his or her Lenin, Stalin, or Mao after the revolution is complete? In theory, everything, in reality, nothing.

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Hello ALL

From “A Message to Garcia”

I wanted to include this for a historical perspective and for the fact that we forget that capitalists are not lazy ne’r do wells.

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Communism simply because it promotes community. I don’t care about economics. I don’t care about equality. I actually despise the concept of equality. What I hate more though is the idea that pitting two people (on a small scale the world on a larger scale) against each other is promoted. I don’t care for competition. I don’t think it helps survival. It’s something you’d figure a civilization would eliminate in order to reduce stress. Capitalism is a regression back to primitive only the strongest survive bull reasoning. No sorry… we should have moved passed that by now.

Plus capitalism doesn’t satisfy my product demands. So the system doesn’t even work for me anyway.

That’s if I had to choose though. Personally I think both kinda suck.

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Hi Thirst, I’m surprised that you actually replied in response to my little post, and to each line of it.

Oh no, I’m against nothing. Rant on people, rant on…

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Hehe

A tendency i have noticed is that the people who vote for capitalism are also the same people who have labeled “human nature” as being Lazy and selfish…

“Personal gain is the only thing that motivates people to work!”

I think this is a reflection of themselves more then it is of all of humanity…

in denmark we have a saying that, roughly translated, goes something like: “a thief thinks all men steal”

why don’t you guys chew on that one…

and then after that consider the impact capitalism has had on our daily lives… Do you really think any of us are uneffected by the promotion of this kind of thinking?

it’s way to naive and frankly STUPID to simple wave away all the poverty of the world and say “they just didn’t work hard enough!”… some of them just never got a chance… and some people abandoned all hope given the odds of them making it…

I think a better, more honest way of expressing yourself would be: “It’s not my probem… And i don’t want to make it my problem”…

If it is human nature to want to earn allot of money… then why is it that I am trying to promote communism?

What is to stop you and everyone else from doing the same?

I’ll tell you what… EGO… ego ego ego…

And while your crying about how you don’t feel loved and how you feel all alone in the world on my couch… I’ll be wondering what the hell kind of drug you need… happy pils or anti-psychotic? :laughing:

then I’ll drive home in the Ferarri I bought with your money and screw your wife… cuz your always off at work anyway… trying to make more money so you can afford my help… :wink: :evilfun:

It’s a mad mad world we live in… sigh… I’ve definatly chosen the right profession… :stuck_out_tongue:

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I like to bullshit a lot… just read most of my posts… :smiley:

I’m nothing if not thorough… :wink:

Okay… now I’m even annoying myself… :roll:

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Well, it’s not the only motivator… much like no personal gain is not the only reason some people become stagnant… but both are equally true.

So all communists think the world should be communistic? Remember that your perspective can be applied the other way too…

Quitters never prosper.

It’s not my problem alone… this is a problem for the world. How realistic is it, given history, to change man in ONE direction? Is that even right?

Human nature is based on rational beings and not lunatics (just kidding–this is a joke :laughing:). Seriously though… I never said some individuals could rise above their nature: look at the mythical Jesus, Job of the OT, look at some of the men in history: Martin Luther, Martin Luther King Jr., Thirst… However, the masses are where it becomes difficult. How do you force the masses to accept something when there will be very large groups that are against your side?

It’s a pretty lofty goal to try to change the world… perhaps it is your ego that needs a review… seriously.

:laughing: I am loved by a very supportive family and a wonderful better half. You remember my successful family and their trials right? Also, the uncles and cousins have done pretty well for themselves too. So, I wouldn’t feel alone. The only reason I went to you is to help your cause of feeding the hungry :wink:

Hmmm… that may be out of line… but I can see the attempt at humor. In any case, I doubt my better half would be into you what with personal experiences with communism. My better-half also prefers hugely endowed men like me (not little tinkers). Besides, the pennies I throw your way won’t take but a few more seconds to earn… :wink: (this is also a joke so don’t get offended).

C’est la vie

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I think Communism is in theory correct, but it doesn’t work out in real life, as someone else suggested (I forget who, sorry). Maybe a solution would be (and its as idealistic as anything) for people to give everything they own to the government to redistribute equally among each individual in the nation. This of course would not mean that your favourite teddy bear would be handed out to the girl next door, but rather, that financial assets would be fairly divided. Another step would be to give each individual the same educational opportunities- to decrease university fees so that more people could go to them. This would not mean that we lower the standard necessary to get a degree- just that those who have the credentials are not barred from getting a good education due to lack of sufficient finances. Then, if each family started with an equal sum of money, it would be up to the individuals to choose whether to spend that on pleasure or on improving in their jobs. If this happened, not that anyone would ever dream of it, opportunity and fate would be non-existant, and basically, what you achieved would be directly proportional to the amount of effort you put in. Of course, some people are less able than others. In this way, fate does play a part. But at least the government would be doing all it could to make things fair.

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that answers it in a nutshell.

let me reverse that for ya.

“the naive think that every man is willing to break his back for nothing, and completely trustworthy.”

Only a fool thinks you can trust everyone unconditionally.

Only a fool thinks that base human nature is not to look out for oneself and capitalism offers you the choice to choose god-money. You can choose to work for the good of others, making very little money, or you can choose to work for the good of yourself and make alot of money.

or you can not do anything like the majority of the poor people do. and of course then you expect some compensation in return.

why don’t you guys chew on that one…

and then after that consider the impact capitalism has had on our daily lives… Do you really think any of us are uneffected by the promotion of this kind of thinking?

perhaps, but it’s more naive to think that communism can work. The only way socialism/communism could work, is like T4M said, if the society was motivated by god to all work hard, and not care that regardless of their skill level make the same as everyone else.

Marxist socialism/communism removes money and god as a motivator. Without any motivation the system is doomed for failure.

of course there’s the other esoteric problems like the removal of freedoms. You’d no longer be doing something for yourself, you’d be doing it for the good of the commune. You couldn’t pass on any of your belongings to your children because your belongings belong to the commune.

If you invented something or wrote something that material would belong to the commune. If you created a piece of artwork, that would belong to the commune not to you. Of course that’s assuming you have anything left to motivate you to create art.

Communism destroys individuality.

Communism destroys imagination.

Communism destroys itself.

Capitalism creates a divide of class. Is that really such a bad thing? Like I and T4M have said several times, what class you are in is determined by how motivated you are to be in a different class.

because you want to help everyone it’s noble but honestly alot of people who are jobless and homeless are in that situation due to laziness. So what you’ll have is a group of people working to support another group of people that doesn’t want to work. Slowly overtime the group that doesn’t work, or doesn’t work hard will grow. What drives someone to work hard to support society when joe lazy ass, is making as much as him/her and does nothing but watch TV all day?

The real problem I think is that you don’t understand the basic law of economics. Marx had the same problem.

let’s look at something else important. Communism doesn’t place value on human life the way modern capitalistic societies do. When soviet russia built nuclear power plants they skimped wherever they could to ensure they still had enough to provide for all the people that didn’t work.

When they built nuclear submarines they didnt’ place ANY radioactive shielding around the engine. When they decomission said ships, they just take them out to the atlantic and sink them.

so that leads me to my final most important counter point.

Communism cares less about human life than capitalism.

In modern day capitalism you can start a non-profit company and work to the betterment of man. really what we have in the US is an ideal mix of socialist ideas with capitalism values. In the same way the liberals and conservatives are needed to create a balance, these two ideas are needed to create the ideal society.

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I think it is becoming more and more clear where our differences lie…

then only fools can be trusted unconditionaly… :wink:

we should all be fools…

It requires a different mentality… You don’t think of it as “If i work hard it won’t help me one bit”

You think of it as “If i work hard then I’ll help everyone”

Bullshit… you children would own everything… along with everyone elses children… You would never have to worry about your children…

the entire world would belong to them…

It’s a different state of mind…

otherwise nothing is destroyed…

Yes it really is such a bad thing… Go ask anyone who lives in africa… or taiwan… or indonesia…

or the bum around the corner… or the black family that has 6 kids all living under the same roof…

it’s pretty damn horrible that they should live under those conditions while some guy is driving around in his Ferrari… braging about his penis…

I’m neither naive nor stupid… I understand that there are people who would USE the system…

But it’s not a system that can be used… You work you get what you need…

You don’t… you dont get what you need… simple really…

Education is a MUST… and everyone gets one… regardless of how long it takes… if your dumb… then we work on you a little longer…

besides… There are ALLOT of people who are out of work… and in communism they would still be out of work…

we can afford to give a couple of lazy people a good life along with the people we just don’t need yet…

we can give them artistic education… those that are not working can be put in art school…

and can spend their days painting, singing, writing books… doing all those things the rest of us will apritiate…

but most importently for communism to work… is that people should WANT it to work…

Why don’t people want it to work?

and it’s becoming clear that it’s greed…

Perhaps… but tell you what… You help me out… you decide who gets the credit… let’s just get it done…

All we need for communism to work… is to WANT IT…

and it’s always best to start with the man in the mirror…

sounds awefully poetic and frightfully naive… but if you think about it…

it’s true…

So why don’t YOU want it to work?

could it be that you are greedy?

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no thanks :slight_smile:

won’t work. If you think it will get a group of similiarly minded people and start a commune.

The fact is, that people want to be recognized for working harder than the other guy. (part of our individuality) If I create a new sawaflange for the hyperdrive, I want to be recognized for such, not have the government or leadership treat me equally.

Think about the inherent problems with that scientifically and research wise… if we treat all research the same there’s no push to do good research. There’s no push to go that extra mile because your research will be looked upon the same as the lab down the street that does mediocre work, and in the end they’ll probably choose the mediocre path because it’s cheaper.

I don’t know about you but when it comes to medicines and safety mediocre just doesn’t cut it!

mm k, the entire world would be communistic then? like I said lack of individuality and personal freedoms!

Communism should breed compassion, but it doesn’t because it’s idiotic. A family unit is a family unit for a reason. Communism destroys the family unit and the children aren’t allowed to even be in contact with their children… the children are property of the state, and the state raises them. It’s this disconnectedness that will cause more discompassion for human life later on!

because there was nothing there to begin with?

your right imagination and individuality aren’t important, we should all believe the same thing, and all work for the good of the country so that the lazy asses can strive and the mediocrity can grow doublefold (at least).

you think communism is going to solve their problems? LOL.

#1) the influx of corporations into 3rd world countries brings money into those countries. It’s a slow process and eventually there standard of living will be as high as other countries.

#2) that black family should have used birth control. No one in this day and age needs 6 kids. (one of my socialistic ideas)

#3) The bum on the corner chose his path. While yes perhaps he could use help, I’ve come to the decision that people who want help seek it out. If you try helping someone who doesn’t want help it’s quite pointless.

so now you have penis envy? or ferrari envy?

I don’t have a problem with the guys that drive around ferraris. I say more power to them. They’ve made the right decisions in their lives and I’m betting they help alot more people than they could in a communistic society (bill gates for example).

yes and the amount of people that use the system would increase twofold every generation. Mediocrity would go up. the standard of living would go down.

seriously are you gonna tell me that in communist countries the standard of living was higher than countries that support capitalism?

no you don’t get what you need.

You don’t get to be human and enjoy material goods.

You don’t get to be spiritual and enjoy godly goods.

It’s an existence devoid of meaning.

again… the person has to WANT to be educated. If not you are just wasting your time.

lets see → current national unemployment in US = 5.8 % (roughly) did it even GET THAT LOW, in communist countries? and right now the US is in a “down” time!

you can in a capitalism/socialist society, but not in a pure socialism/communism society. The lazy people propagate more lazy people (been over this like 10 times now!)

what would they be artistic about without an imagination?

yes because communist russia was known for it’s great artists.

you don’t understand at all. It’s a much more complex issue than that.

A) the people you are calling greedy donate millions per year to various charities and homeless.

B) the people you call greedy could be working in a non-profit company to help the community. non-profit companies couldn’t survive in communism because it produces nothing.

it’s clear to me that you just don’t get it.

People are worse off with communism.

people have fewer freedoms with communism.

people are poorer with communism.

product mediocrity is greater with communism.

NO.

you don’t understand at all.

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We are all fools. We don’t prepare for people stabbing us in the back and we get hurt or emotionally bothered when they do. It’s an overdramatic concept of cynicism he’s practicing. Maybe he thinks he’s clever enough to not be fooled into trusting someone who the hell knows. Humans make the worst cynics. They strive to be in groups and to trust and to love and to be loved. We are all fools more so if we think different.

This leads to one of my problem with communism. What is “helping” everyone. Even if it’s a democratic version of communism it could be a large portion of the population that go away unhappy.

It’s a different state of mind…

otherwise nothing is destroyed…
[/quote]
Individuality has been destroyed and imagination is dying.

Don’t agree. You can fight yourself all you want but if you’re not happy with a system something will eventually break. I don’t know how to keep humans happy but I’m sure you’d agree that forcing yourself to want something isn’t all it takes to actually be happy.

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  1. The bum around the corner is too busy looking for his next FIX to care. Most (and I mean most) American bums are there because they are lazy, good for nothing junkies or alcoholics or lazy sluggards. These types of bums will make any excuse not to work or earn anything.

  2. The black family (single mother) with 6 kids (from 4 different fathers) living under the same roof profit from their “poverty.” How many times these children mocked my non-name-brand shoes while my parents worked two jobs each to provide food and shelter. These kids had the new $150 Nike shoes because their parents worked under the table and the welfare system rewarded them… I pity not this type of family. If you have an argument with this visit the thousands of welfare cheats that can be found in my old, impoverished, neighborhood.

Oh, and if anyone tries to make this about race - SOD OFF! This is about attitudes and every race has lazy sluggards and cheats.

:laughing: Hey, you took it there dude! Besides, I grew up in these neighborhoods. I made no excuses and I am not that smart. The simple difference: desire to succeed. When you have this desire you will make efficient and effective choices. Also, please let me clarify: I do not have a Ferrari–YET. I was using a humorous example.

I think communism could work on a very small scale with very small villages. As the community grows (in land and population) the community suffers because it is increasingly difficult to commune (be together) at any one time or place. As this estrangement occurs people become less trusting. With less trust comes other problems… the result? Communism like that in the former Soviet Union: ineffective. Is this a fair analysis?

If so, how do we solve this problem?