I say so because it promotes equality… and not idel compatition and petty rivalry… the system is based on solidarity among all men…
We have seen the face of capitalism… where roughly 10% of the world own 90% of it!
And where we accept it because of the dreams that are being shoved in our faces… dreams about how if we try really hard… we can make it big… and while we dream of personal gain… we forget that to obtain such personal wealth… we are forced to step on the heads of those we are climbing on top of! and as “fair” as that may seem… those we are standing on… don’t share our views…
Took the words right outta my mouth. Forgive me from digressing after you two agreed to speak about Communism/Capitalism in private. California’s 3 Strikes Law amendment was nearly passed which would amend the legislation to allow criminals off the hook for their third strike that proponent say would be if it were “non violent.” During the campaign they spread lies about a man who got life in prison for stealing pizza to satisfy his hunger. In one ad, we were to be sympathetic of a man who was sentenced 25-life for trafficking rock. Of course the radical liberals will always claim that the “victim” was a user, not slanger, and they deserve rehab/help, not jail (I happen to agree with that, for the users). However, many drug addicts as I think thirst4metal can attest to feed their desperation with violent robberies. My family member was almost killed by a crackhead who wanted five dollars. To some degree, though outta their minds when committing the murder, they are responsible for choosing a sequence of decisions that would relinquish their rationality and yield a possible world where they kill someone. This of course assumes the drug addict did not suffer psychological problems prior to use.
As Aquinas incorporates in his morality, “moral luck.” If a drunk driver leaves a bar and makes it home, it would be far less abhorrent than if he killed a baby on his way though he was equally responsible either way. The outward act DOES matter.
We can not be sympathetic to conscientious criminals who make conscious decisions to commit crimes. There IS a way out, thirst4metal’s story could not be written much better. Do you find his outlook on life and his being one of the few who made it out of the ghetto a mere coincedence. I certainly do not. Mentality matters. It translates into reality. Fact is, the more excuses we make, the less apt we are to move and make positive ones for that matter. My family and I lived in the ghetto up until recently, it was our approach to life that got us out…nothing more. Parents came with nothing and did not speak English. African Americans for example at least have English as their first language and leaders in U.S. history to look up to and follow. They have a caucus in Congress and are infrastructurally established in this country in many spheres. The Hispanic community is on the rise, in government, business, etc. The go getters are the ones who acquired what they wanted.
Case in point: with communism comes a certain mentality that is in stark contrast with capitalism. Capitalism definetely yields usury, exploitation, subjecting people to mere means, but to blame capitalism for evil exploitation is to ignore which is the cause and which is the effect… Human nature is what it all comes back to and human nature came via form of totalitarianism in Communist states and there was always an elite class in the Communist societies. Communism is an ideal which does not apply to our species well.
U.S.A.-most productive society mankind has produced. You CHOOSE your path here, career wise, lifestyle wise and most importantly…ideologically. Not the case in communist states. Capitalism: Exploited poor? Yes. But thousands risk their lives crossing our borders because they all got little Americans in 'em just dying to get out
Scythekain: All systems do dude…you wouldn’t believe it’s Das Capital and the Communist Manifesto that was the cause of tyranny do you? Gotta look inward. A will to power and domination is not the invention of Adam Smith, Marx, the Qur’an, or whatever, it’s in our balls… and the greater population unfortunately lacks such virtue as temperance to control it. The ones who do, are not in the political sphere. If they are, they are marginalized for not realizing you gotta roll up your sleeves and play the dirty game to get some justice around here. Most of the intellectuals warm up to the Green Party and far left stuff that will NEVER go anywhere. On a basic level, there is a disconnect with the dangers of the world, the countless terrorist plots foiled that almost got us here at home, and answer all the world foreign relations conflicts by throwin’ up a peace sign.
I met Ralph Nader and spoke to him personally a few weeks ago. I asked him some questions that he as I anticipated before hand totally dodged. He is a level headed guy, it’s his constituency that’s holding him back. Smoke weed all day, where red stars on your shirt, sympathize with people who wouldn’t hink twice to kill your little brother in a terrorist or military attack, making hemp a priority in life as the nucleus of their solution to world problems, Haight Ashbury types, etc. Don’t get me wrong, it is ESSENTIAL that these views are represented, and the real wacko, KKK and the rest. As you noted, making drugs illegal makes 'em go underground, so would prohibiting certain political alliances. We let these nuts speak loud and clear, and they are as a result marginalized the the majority of sane people (I said sane, not smart). But scythekain, appointed to head of state today, would you not impose certain welfares you knew were for the better of your people e.g. fight war on drugs. I’ve seen what it does to people, first hand where I grew up. But I do not see the sense in you assuming that if crack was legal, the crack heads would be more rational. The nut still needed 5 bucks even if he could walk into 7-11 and get his fix.
There are basic common senses we have to impose on people in our society. That includes giving rapists, attempted murderers, assault with a deadly weapon offenders 25-life for their third offense. Bottom line is, if you have 2 violent felonies, God knows what else, and you get caught for something, obviously you have not changed your ways. For every time these guys get caught they probably get away with dozens of other crimes. Jails are necessary, and I am not sympathetic to the viewpoint that criminal behavior is justified by socio-economic disadvantage. No accountablility for your acts per ones volition. What are we, lower order insects? We act voluntarily, we know what we’re doing when we do it (for the most part). I think this last sentence is the strong line between out of touch with reality liberals (not accusing anyone here, I do not yet know your views) and in touch with reality others…thoughts?
Which version? The one that’s in the library next to Snow White and the 7 Dwarves or the one that started brutish conflicts ending up in the deaths of millions?
Mad Man, your name is appropriate after this comment whose head am I stepping on for woking my ass off to get into one of the best Universities in the States. Whose head am I stepping on for selling our house in the ghetto and buying a nice one that other people had interest in selling? Whose head am I stepping on if I pass the BAR and get a dope job at a top law firm? The other guy from Harvard who’s interviewing for the job? He’ll be alright…we’re big boys Mad Man, time for some healthy competition, some adreanaline filled battle for the best LSAT score, and getting into that school of your dreams. Step aside if the low post is a bit rough playa.
But seriously though, whose head is being stepped on when the mom and pop who took out a bank loan opened up a repair shop, offering a quality service to people for a good price and make a good living. Whose head is stepped in when a multi millionaire opens up a new company hiring hundreds of employees for jobs THEY WANT, and bettering their lives with more upward mobility, opportunity and a more comfortable life for their family?
Mad Man, that solidarity you speak of, for the noble Knights of Malta…but unfortunately, I don’t come across them too often. I come across aggressive ambitious young guys like thirst4metal ready to take what is ours by EARNING it. It’s simple, two kinds of spirits: competitive, aggressive, ambitious, determined, and then there’s more apathetic, less energetic, dreamers who believe in solidarity among men with communism as the nice red ribbon binding you all, watching people from all over the world live their dream, come to America with nothing, and make themselves WHO THEY WISH. (don"t take offense, just adding some spice to get things goin’)
We’re comin’ out! Guns blazing…Capitalism all the way baby
Well…
The train is out there, going to the “new”, you can buy a ticket or not.The old is obviously terrible. But you know, although you don’t know it,you have to buy the ticket in order to see the the “new”.Maybe it will be good for you,maybe not…But as I said before the “old” is terrible…
I’m not surprised when an amarican tells me he is a capitalist… I would be if he told me he was a communist… and you can speculate on the reason this is…
Capitalism ALLOWS for people to exploit other people… It’s actually ALLOWED… it’s OK… nothing wrong with it… in fact… it is REWARDED!!
capitalism is conditioning people to become egocentric and self-serving individuals… and to even show PRIDE in such achievements…
at the same time… it’s teaching those that don’t make it (not everyone can be rich, you know!!)… that they are loosers… and have no one to blame but themselves…
No wonder they are on drugs!
If you are thinking of the DICTATORSHIPS we’ve seen pose as “communist” societies… then we’re not talking about the same thing at all…
and also I’d advise you to stay clear of attempting to “define” human nature…
Excluding communism based on “human nature” is a cheap shot…
Our nature is ours to alter… as we see fit…
lol… Thousands of people are lining up to get into denmark… what the hell does that bullshit mean?
It usualy means they were not happy where they were before…
And their former unhappyness probably has something to do with Amarica
I don’t particularly dislike Amarican people… I dislike what Amarica stands for on a global scale…
Don’t be an idiot…
that’s like saying "Hitler was a capitalist… so capitalists have caused more deaths then any communist could ever hope to accomplish… "
“we’re big boys”
“healthy compatition”
Get over yourself…
Who are you stepping on?.. you must be blind!!
Egocentric… selfserving… “I worked hard to get where I am”… the people you are stepping on are the people whom you have out competed… and are now ignoring compleatly… the people who DIDN’T get into collage… who didn’t get the job… who weren’t as smart as you… or as strong as you… those who tried… but didn’t have what it took…
those are the people you are stepping on…
I don’t come across noble people too often either… And i ask myself… Why not? and how do i change it?
and about “earning”… what did you do to earn what you have?
I’ve SEEN 7 year old children working harder then you could EVER manage… along with their dads who worked 16 hours a day… and put together they only “earned” about 5$ at the end of the day… which all went to buying food… paying the rent… and taxes… cuz their country owes billions to the U.S…
If those kids don’t work they don’t eat… No school no “making fotunes” for themslves… no compatition… they already lost when they were born… it’s basic survival for them…
I’m just wondering what the hell you did that was so special to make you “earn” anything more then what they are getting?
I see no real example where communism has worked over an extended period of time. Capitalism lets the intelligent people willing to work become “successful” while those who don’t deserve it are filtered out. And how do you think the rich will feel when you strut in and say “hi, we’re here to take all your money so stupid people who don’t do shit can buy a house and stuff to put in it.”? And don’t drag other countries debts into this, they have no relavence.
"it’s teaching those that don’t make it (not everyone can be rich, you know!!)… that they are loosers… and have no one to blame but themselves… " - well, if you’re stupid and horribly poor, don’t have children, lessening the world population can only help the situation with lack of jobs. Doing good/studying/getting involved in school = scholarships (which can be paralled to the working world. Yeah - nowadyas in the US of A you get free college if you’re smart enough… although I hate the US’s egotistical “democracy is the best for everyone.” I think the question you really should be asking is whether democracy is good, not capitalism. Our economy is just fine, its the pathetic government that should be addressed.), thus I would assume it is their fault that they are not who they want to be. Luck is but a tiny sliver of this skill and motivation to become successful. And what’s wrong with “I”?
Wow… that’s good advice… how generous of you to despence such advice to those who are “stupid and horribly poor”… how could they ever repay you?
And if you’re not smart enough you get to do crime just to survive… And thanks to the NRA… guns are easy to come by… but seeing as how your “stupid”… you’ll get cought and put in jail…
I am glad you didn’t tell that to the American Farmers of the nineteenth century, many of whom certainly had many children and employed them on the farm. Of course now we have wonderous technology that can take the place of all those little hands and feet… technology that the Third World neither has nor can afford to any significant degree.
Hey, I pine away for the days of fiscally responsible Republicans who would as soon marry an African American as sell out our nation’s future for immediate gain. Alas, those Republicans, while some still exist, have no real clout in their own party anymore.
I think you are discounting one’s environment. In times of overwhelming abundance, capitalism seems great. Historically though , capitalism has a trend of boom and bust cycles. Maybe if the next bust is bad enough, you might decide to support your government sponsored soup kitchen.
And no, I am not a Communist. I admit Communism sounds great in theory… the practical reality is that human beings are not willing to live an equitable way.
The truth is that Neo liberal economic policies were needed in some cases to correct the excesses of the New Deal. However, the numbers continue to point out that the neo liberal exercise has garnered its own excesses as well.
I completely agree. In practicality the lazy became more lazy and the hardworking don’t give a shit, because there is no reward of working harder.
This is one of the prime reasons for the fall of communism in the Soviet Union.
of course Capitalism rewards the hard working and those willing to sacrifice others with great bounty. What would really be needed is a system where someone can’t earn over a certain amount of money, and where stepping and killing others to get there is looked down upon.
You’d still have the motivator of hard work. Just that the top brass CEO’s couldn’t pull in 48 million a year anymore.
The common sense of bending over in front of power or starve to death I presume. The freedom to “roll up your sleeves and play the dirty game to get some justice” or be called a good for nothing hippie that deserves to starve because “hey it was your choice”.
And the common sense to not “sympathize with people who wouldn’t hink twice to kill your little brother in a terrorist or military attack” when you could sympathize with people that wouldn’t think twice to kill someone’s else little brother in order to support their economical interests.
Nice demagogy Avicenna.
And please…stop talkingh about human nature…
Capitalism does not do any of that. As communism (which is often refered also as State Capitalism) all it does is create points of resistence in order to create a power structure that because that in its order finds its possibility of being controlled.
Capitalism does not reward the hardworking. That is a result of the protestant ethics and the prejudices which come with it; prejudices as the superiority of intellectual work as it reflects more closely human nature, and the belief in an equilibrated and just system that rewards the honest because created by a perfect creator. Obviously nowadays few believe that, yet they have left an imprint in our society. Also the previous affermation can be easily confutated by empirical evidence: does a senator work harder than a coal miner?
Capitalism does do that. Look at Enron, Microsoft. Both companies stepped on the toes of their competitors. one got completely destroyed but the other is still carrying on it’s ways of trying to put it’s competitors out of business through unethical practices.
Enron also practiced Immoral practices, by engaging in lying and covorting to get the upper brass more money while screwing over the employees.
yes it does. If you start your own business and work your ass off you can become filthy stinking rich, if you sell a product that people think they need.
but at the same time you can work your ass off as a Janitor your whole life and get nowhere. With capitalism it matters where you work your ass off as to whether you get rewarded or not.
We choose to reward actors and athletes the most in our society.
a senator still works hard, just in a different way. You probably would hate life as a senator… it’s not cake.
at the same time the senator would hate life as a coal miner.
but coal is hardly mined as uncaringly for human life as it used to be. It used to be that even harvesting trees, if you died it was no skin off the companies backs. Human life was dispensable.
Like I said … just rewards in capitalism are based on hard work. The payoff comes from application. A janitor and a coal miner no matter how hard they work will never make as much as a doctor or an astronaut.
that’s not to say that the doctor and the astronaut don’t work hard though!
most jobs like the janitorial, and miners and other such grunt work, will be replaced by androids in the future leaving only the intellectuals/artists or some combination thereof making the money. If you don’t fit into that crowd you can always get a job servicing the androids.
You don’t consider that the modern capitalist system is not anarchic anymore but is strictly controlled by an overstructure which determines its politics on a global scale.
You defend that hardwork gets you successfful, yet you have to specify that you become successful only in certain fields. Ironically the fields you indicate are aristocratic, hard to get in circles. More ironically someone could easily argue that hard work was recompensated even in soviet russia: if you got in the party and worked really hard you would have become stinking rich. But we both know that such was not the case.
I don’t know…the worship of the salesman in the US is so widespread, almost as the idolatry europeans have toward the artist’s figure.
I assure you, being in politics myself, being a senator is nothing to hard and I would be ashamed to get anything more than the minum wage, in the end I’m doing something I love, I have no reason to desire anything more than a roof a bed and 3 warm meals a day.
The automatization of the industrial system did not coincide with a higher lifestyle throughout the population. After the initial economical boom the gap between the rich and the poor has grown constantly with an increasing disoccupation between the workers dedicated especially to industrial production. So it is not a solution.
well I don’t know that I’d call a doctor “stinking rich”, most are well off. But then again they have to dedicate themselves to 8+ years of school and working 24 hour shifts occasionally. I also think your “in circles” is over stated. That’s not as important as you think. once your promoted to any type of management position you instantly become “in that circle” — see my example below as to why it’s easy to get in if you really want to.
So should a janitor or waste management person or miner who didn’t bother trying very hard in school, didn’t make it to college, etc, make as much as the doctor?
it’s just not logical. If you work your ass off, and apply yourself (by continuing your education) you will become rich. Any of todays billionaires worked their ass of to get there. Their social lives came as the sacrifice.
Another point to make is that capitalism drives what people make. If you are good and rare at what you do you will make more money. If you are bad and/or there is alot of competition it will be harder to turn a profit.
interesting, don’t agree.
if it’s not too hard, maybe your not working hard enough.
I didn’t say it would. I said that it would replace the current low end jobs leaving those people to seek jobs at Wal-Mart or as a robot repair worker.
Honestly I have a poor opinion of the poor:
#1) they don’t aspire to reach beyond their means. This is something that someone who is wealthy has.
#2) They only do enough to get by. When the boss asks them to do more, they say they’ve got to go home. Those who stay behind for the boss will move up the company and make more money.
#3) They think they are victims. You’ve got to be your own advocate. If you want to be rich, you had better have the aspiration to sell something everyone wants.
Now I’m not saying that means we should ignore the poor, I think an ideal system would be to set up job training programs like Germany has.
of course that takes away the freedom we currently enjoy. Always trade-offs.
Yes… They should make absolutely NO money… They should earn the right to be doing what they like to be doing…
If you don’t want to brake your back every day in a cole mine… You might want to consider becoming a doctor…
Think outside the box… This is true WITHIN capitalism… but NOT true given communism…
If you work your ass off you will be more valuable to the community as a whole… and within that system such is the way of gaining prestigue… NOT money… just recognition…
#1) Then they belong where they are… and why should they be paied less for being happy where they are?
#2) They don’t need to do more… If we get by… What more do we need?
#3) They ARE victims… because of people like you… They don’t nessisarily want to be “rich”… they just want to be “like everyone else”…
read your own 3 points… and tell me WHY a “poor” person who happens to be fine doing what they are doing has to take this kind of shit from an arrogant ass like you… ?
You’re stuck in the box drawn for you… You’re a mindless drone of society… compleatly consumed by a lust for “wealth” which brings you absolutely nothing… Only problems… “how do i make more?”… a never endning question… and the biggest blindfold ever
One day you might walk into my office and tell me about your problems… And then I’ll laugh my ass off… ask you about your dad and have you pay me 500$ for 15 min of my precious time…
We’re supposed to be evolving… not going back to clan rivalry… “I’ll take care of me and my own… you do the same!”
what kind of bullshit is that?
ALL humans are “our own”… you narrow minded pile of ego…
Wake up and give them a hand… Some people could use some help… And they ought to get it…
So the market can never be strictly autocratic determined by the individual but is also affected that are imposed from the outside that are devised by people that want to mantain the power and close they olygarchi as much as they want. The WTO is an example.
I believe that capitalism as a meritocracy works rarely (you have a perfect example in the leading politician of many countries in the free world )
I believe that in capitalism as you formulate it the only virtue that gives value to a person is to sell itself o its product. Everyone is oriented toward selling, men become the result of their marketing skills. This is reificating them.
And no, I don’t believe that a janitor should earn exactly as much as a doctor. I’m against the disproportion of wealth between the popolation, not against economic differences.
That’s bull
I’m a philosophy major. On average I study somewhat from 6 to 8 hours a day. I don’t really think I could work any harder. Yet I won’t certainly trade it for a job at mcdonalds, no matter how well payed.
I believe such is a naive opinion:
-Soon the market will be saturated by repairsmen.
-It always comes a moment when it is cheaper to throw away things rather than repair them.
And other problems.
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I honestly have a poor opinion of people that judge others and themselves by their economic success.
That is the cause of all those awful rap videos with limos, mansions and jacuzzi.
See, I think we have to argue the level of exploitation here.
1st. The people are given ample opportunity to better their lives.
2nd. People have choices: don’t like your pay? Get an education. Can’t afford an education? Work harder than everyone and you will be rewarded? You aren’t being rewarded? Start your own business, or go work elsewhere… the choices and opportunities are limitless for those who are willing to WORK THEIR ARSE OFF!
3rd. Unlike in third world countries (where capitalism is not in place) the U.S. protects its employees by setting safety standards, work hours, minimum wage rates, legal procedures, et al. The level of exploitation is much less severe here and perhaps shouldn’t be applied.
What world do you live in? Survival is a part of man’s nature. To install communism we would first have to change man’s nature.
So your argument is that their unhappiness had something to do with America and then they chose to go there? My friend from El Salvador talks to me about the benefits that come from the U.S. all the time… the same applies to many Latin countries south of the U.S. border. There are many, many countries that benefit from the U.S. (France, England, Germany, EUROPE is no exception).
They worked hard to get there and you will be damned if you let them enjoy their place… I understand.
I am not any more special than anyone else and the same decaying organic matter as everyone else. The difference is in the effort put forth.
I can answer this for my case: how about never taking a dime from someone without paying interest back (okay my parents gave me an allowance but I take care of them now). That’s just for starters. I am self-educated (for the most part) and self reliant. I earn my money by being better at what I do than many others. I’ve worked the fields for 14 hours a day (for below the legal minimum wage) and have done all types of jobs to secure a decent position.
Research the debt of Guatemala, Honduras, et al. to the U.S. and you will find that the debt is often forgiven.
My parents were born under these conditions and managed to make a decent life. They worked hard and had little and no education.
It is a pretty remarkable story but not a unique NOR a rare one.
whose head am I stepping on for woking my ass off to get into one of the best Universities in the States. Whose head am I stepping on for selling our house in the ghetto and buying a nice one that other people had interest in selling? Whose head am I stepping on if I pass the BAR and get a dope job at a top law firm? The other guy from Harvard who’s interviewing for the job? He’ll be alright…we’re big boys Mad Man, time for some healthy competition, some adreanaline filled battle for the best LSAT score, and getting into that school of your dreams. Step aside if the low post is a bit rough playa.
