Christianity

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
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If there are any Christian Theologians out there, I have some questions for you.

This isnt an attempt to piss people off. Just some questions that Ive held for a while…

First of all, how does Christianity explain people born before Jesus?(BC) How are they able to be saved? If so.
In the Bible, it neatly points out that belief in Jesus is essential.

Secondly How are people, in third world countries, able to hear the word of god? The Christian god. The self proclaimed ‘only way to heaven’ god. (I realize a majority of religions are like this)
I assume they(inhabitants of poor/3rd world countries) have great restrictions to any sort of knowledge or religion. How are the uneducated able to hear god’s word? or is it even neccessary??

How are some newborns/babies who die at a premature age able to hear Gods word and proclaim their devotion to him? How are they saved?

Why do most Christians feel that unbelievers are empty slaves to carnality and selfish pride, unable to grasp the truth, and must humble themselves before God’s plan?
(my old theology teacher was a great exaple to this. He was a stern disciplinarion/jackass.)

Why did the Christian god create evil? (Isaiah 45:7)
and
Why is God concerned about humans at all? When we are less than a speck in the universe. miniscule planet amongst a grande universe.

Lastly, how could god ( a perfect god) create anything unperfect?

I still believe in God, its just fanatics of any religion piss me off. I dont understand them.
Wasnt Christianity on the brink of completion hundredds of years ago, If it wernt for some ruler who proclaimed Christianity the ‘official religion’. God bless him.

Dont get me wrong, I dont deny the Christian god. I accept/agree with a lot of the morals. Im just a little skeptical. For me, the unexamined ‘god’ is not worth following.

All feedback welcomed

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Ive said it before

So pretty much thats where i stand in my faith. Take a guess

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Well, I hang around a lot of Christians. I don’t really consider my religion the same as theirs. In a way its the same. I just think some people get triped up on the language.

You think about the first commandment and it says though shalt not have any other gods before the Lord your God. Yet, you have the Catholics saying that there’s 3 persons in God: the father, son, and the holy spirit. Now, I went to Sunday school, and I was never really convinced that it was all true. Now, I kinda understand it as there trying to explain somthing, but it was just in a different language than what I’m nomally acustomed to.

If you really want an eye opener read some of Alan Watt’s early books on Christanity. He gives it in plan english, at least for me that is. I think the reason he quit being a Preist in the Anglican Church, and declared himself an eastern philosopher, because he found a spirt of God, or the Tao, or the Void, or the Brahaman, etc., and he wasn’t able to communicate it to people in the normal “Christian Channels”.

There are many rivers that lead to the sea. Just as there are many ways that lead to God, and don’t think that I’m trying to “convert” you, cause I’m not. I’m just telling you what I think.

“Believe it or not.” --Ripley

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The guest is me. It kicked me out before I had a chance to post.
I didn’t know I had a time limit. lol

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That kind of assumes that the only religion that could be correct is Christianity

What if Christ wasn’t really the son of God, but the Judeo-Christian God still exists? Then by beliving in Christ you’d be worshiping a false idol, damning yourself to hell and thereby making things much worse for yourself then if you hadn’t believed.

Oops, we didn’t think of that one now did we?

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What exactly is the Judeo-Christian God ?

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The concept of an all-powerful, all-benevolent God as portrayed by both Judasim and Christianity. I suppose that is a bit confusing, given the context. Suppose then that Yahweh (of Judaism) is the “real” God. Believing in Jesus would be the same thing as worshiping a false Idol.

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I’m no expert on it all, and I think anyone believing in God is just doing so for comfort/it’s been instilled in them from birth, but I think I can answer a few of your questions Youngman. Now don’t shout at me if it’s all wrong, this is what 23 years living in the “christian” country of England has given me, but I’ve never looked into it properly so tell me if I’m wrong.

Christanity didn’t “start” with Christ, it is the extension of the Jewish beliefs. So people before Christ could believe in the Jewish teachings, then Christ came along and modified them, that’s the “new testament” and the old testament is the old one from the Jews. Essentially they both hold but the tack of the new one is more forgiving than the “smiting” in the old. Jews had always believed there would be a coming of their God, that was Christ. But some Jews didn’t believe he was the 2nd coming and so stayed a classical Jew and are still waiting for their messiah.

When Christ died on the cross he washed away all of our previous sins with his blood (does no-one else think the tradition of drinking christ’s “blood” is a little spooky (sacremental wine)), and so everyone before him had been forgiven of all their sins.

Belief is in the trinity, not just Jesus, it’s the the father, the son and the holy spirit (on another note this little problem of three different things being identical caused a lot of problems for logicians who were christians).

It’s is not wholly true that you have to be a Christian to get into heaven, it’s all on how you read it. It’s also not necessary to attend church or have priests if the dead sea scrolls are to be believed.

Newborn babies have commited no sins and so are free from evil. I think some sects believe it necessary to baptise dead babies in order for them to reach the pearly gates.

Well that’s just the way with every religion and not just religions but ethnic groups, nation states, etc. It’s human nature, not a reflection on the religion. Most religions say do not murder, but these rules are neatly ignored because they don’t apply to unbelievers, but there’s nowhere in the bible that says they don’t, it’s just priests and kings manipulating it all for their own ends.

Because you need the bitter to taste the sweet, without evil there is no good.

Ahhh, the perfect answer: You can never understand the ways of the Lord, how do you know this world is imperfect? It might do what it was designed to do perfectly.

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i can’t remember anything (somone correct me if im wrong) but this is pascal’s gamble isn’t it? if a person believes in god there is a small chance its true but its infinite happiness and if there isn’t you don’t lose anything, and if you don’t belive in god, there is no chance of inifnite happiness and only a chance of a small amount of happiness. so the logical choice would be to believe…

i have a big problem with this logic. what is the point? is this giving a reason to believe? isn’t it just a selfish reason then? i thought religion or believing in god was supposed to be faith as in i believe becuase i believe… not i believe becuase i will be granted eternal heaven if i do? is a “belief” derived out of logical selfishness a real belief at all? in essence saying… im going to love and worship jesus/god becuase i might have a chance to go to heaven…

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Well, I’m not a “christian” theologian anymore. I’m more of a “beleiver” if you will.

It was never intended in the Bible to have BC and AD. This was something created by greeks afterwards which gave way to try and contradict the importance of this teaching.
The “christian” church is JUST another religion. There is NO religion in the world that the true God wants us to follow. They are simply put as “teachings”.
Religions are created by man and NOT by God. Religions are used to CONTROL the masses, not help them. God intends for people to have a “relationship” with him, not join a religion or cult.

As per the part about Jesus. First of all his name was never spoken as Jesus, it was Yeshua. Anyway I will say “Jesus” in order to not make people mad.
When someone beleives in the Messiah (Jesus) they are just returning to the belief that was already written on their hearts. When Jesus died on the cross (tree) everyone after that didn’t have to be “born again”. What exactly is “born again” anyway. Surely no man can be “born again” spiritually or phisically! We can however, “accept” who Jesus is and what it meant to beleive in him.
Something else about the old Testament that people don’t know: Moses saw Jesus and many other people in the Old Testament did too. God said he would never show his face to anyone, least they die. What moses saw of God was actually the messiah himself (Jesus).

The truth is, it’s none of anyone’s business who’s closer to God or not. We (as christians) are supposed to take care of ourselves first and then when we are living a “good” example should we only tell people about God.
Most Christians beleive this because they have no control over their own lives, because they are still in a “religion” not a “relationship” with God.

You are referring to Constintine I would beleive. He has done more to hurt the morals of the true God than anyone. He never really converted to Christiantity either (it shows because he still practised Greek traditions).
Like I said and the Bible tries to say, it’s not meant as a religion. (regardless of what the KJV says, it’s a wrong translation, don’t beleive me, too bad.)

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All those living during and after Jesus’ day are commanded to obey his words for salvation. Those who lived BC weren’t under these commandments/teachings, since they didn’t even exist yet, obviously. Acts 24:15 says that there will be a “resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” Both those who lived in harmony w/ God’s laws and people who, out of ignorance, did unrighteous things will be resurrected. Rev. 20:13 says that “death and Hades gave up those dead in them and they are judged according to their deeds.”
Even Abraham & Job believed in a resurrection. (Heb 11:17-19; Job 14:13)

Missionaries. Paul was one of the most prominent ones. Matt. 24:14 – “This message of the kingdom must be preached in all the earth and then the end will come.”

Unfortunately, the bible doesn’t say for sure, but all I can say is that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous. – Acts 24:15

(2 Cor 6:14-17) Why should light share with darkness ? Or Jesus w/ Satan ? etc.
(1 Cor 5:11-13) Quit mixing w/ a someone who says they are a brother when they willfully commit sins, not even eating with such a person.
Even in earlier times, the Israelites were commanded not to associate w/ those who weren’t of God’s people and worshiper of false gods.(Caananites, etc.)

Rightly, God brought evil or calamity upon Adam for his disobedience. Hence, in the Scriptures, God is referred to as the Creator of evil or calamity. (Isa 45:7) His enforcing of the penalty for sin, namely, death, has proved to be an evil, or a calamity, for mankind. So, then, evil is not always synonymous with wrongdoing. Examples of evils or calamities created by God are the Flood of Noah’s day and the Ten Plagues visited upon Egypt. But these evils were not wrongs. Rather, the rightful administration of justice against wrongdoers was involved in both cases. However, at times God, in his mercy, has refrained from bringing the intended calamity or evil in execution of his righteous judgment because of the repentance on the part of those concerned. (Jon 3:10) Additionally, in having a warning given, God has undeservedly provided opportunities for the practicers of bad to change their course and thus to keep living.-Eze 33:11.

Doesn’t seem to make sense, huh? I have a hard time believing it myself, but the bibles says that He does. He didn’t have to give us different tastes or be able to see in color, since we can live perfectly fine without those things, but He gave us those things to make life more enjoyable. IMO

He didn’t. He created perfect angels and perfect humans, not as robots, but with free will to choose to serve him or not. Angels then Adam disobeyed and became imperfect. Much like a thief is not born a thief, but learns it and chooses to become one.

It’s late, but hopefully some of my jiberish will make sense.

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I think people have christianity all wrong. Don’t get me wrong, I am not a christian, but I do believe that one way or another the christians got it all wrong. I’d catorgize these to your questions, but quoting never works for me, and a what I have to say answers sometimes more than one question.

I do not think that origanally christianity was believed to be the only true religion. I can easily see a prominent christian wanting more power or feeling jealous of another, or losing believers to a pagan religion, and saying that his religion was the only, and not believing would send you to hell. It makes sense. No perfect God in my eyes would care whether or not people believed in any specific view of Him.

And on evil, I take a completely different take than most people. Evil was created so we can learn. Was it not the snake that said biting the apple would allow them to know what god did? If that was truly the origin of sin, than how can sin not have been created for knowledge?

Maybe I’m wrong with this one, for I am no follower of the religion, but another view I have was that man was not created to love God, but to be loved by God. God is not there to punish for evil, but to love for good. The world was created as a playground for life. God is a parent, not a judge.

I think that covers about all of your questions, directly or not. Hope that makes you all think a bit.

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Youngman18 quote - how does Christianity explain people born before Jesus?(BC) How are they able to be saved?

God will cut them slack :slight_smile:
“In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.” (Acts 17:30)

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Let me ask you one simple question.
How do you know what God wants for your life without the Bible? Because you obviously don’t believe in it, because if you did you’d know the early Christians had to sacrifice animals to get forgiveness from their sins.

Once you say you know what God wants for your life without using the bible, you’ve created your own religion.

I basically don’t see what’s wrong with my religion at all. I’m a Southern Baptist Protestant Christian… Give me an example of what’s wrong with my religion?

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The unexamined God is not worth following, a very good point. So how do you examine God? Well for one there’s his word, the bible.

How could a perfect God create anything unperfect? Simple…he’d create something with a flaw on purpose…he wouldn’t be perfect if he couldn’t do this am I right? Furthermore, things are only imperfect because of your opinions, in God’s eyes maybe it’s going perfectly as planned.

We only know God’s concerned about us because of the universe and the Bible. Other than that you really can’t know.

It’s called the age of accountability. For those who can’t possibly be smart enough to accept God, they will go to heaven. Babies will go to heaven.

As for people who haven’t gotten the knowledge to accept God…Well I’m still not sure of this… I do know for a fact though from many missionaries that certain countries, like uganda, have inhabitants that believe in a man who died on a cross, etc. As long as they believe that, they should be saved. But this gets into a very deep discussion about the need for missionaries… If perhaps you would like to discuss it I’ll do research and find out.

I hope this helps…I don’t think I missed anything even though I didn’t structure it very well…sorry bout that.

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The traditional answer is that those in the OT point towards the cross while those in the NT point back to the cross for salvation. Jesus was not wholly unrevealed in the OT. Read the story of Abraham and his interaction with God. Many of the features of Christianity are described in his story.

It is necessary for everyone to find relationship to God through Jesus. Those who have not heard any preaching may still be saved since God’s eternal qualities can be clearly deduced from a simple observation of nature. One would have to assume that they can establish a reltionship with God from this limited information. Whether this will look exactly like modern Christianity seems doubtful.

Romans 1
20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Whether they are saved or not is a matter of debate since their fate is not clearly described in the bible. Catholics and most modern protestant denominations create a framework of theology to include them in salvation. Whether such constructs are correct is unclear. I think the best I could say is that God is good and he will decide correctly and justly on their fate.

Because the bible tells us so. Plus, experiencing a little of life will back this up.

God did not create evil. He created beings with the capacity for moral choice. These beings chose evil over good.

Because humans are the only being made in the image of God and destined to be a bride for his son.

He didn’t. Everything God created was good. Imperfection arose from the choices made by other beings.

I’ve been called a fanatic many times. I’ll try not to piss you off but I can’t guarantee it! I’ll happily answer any questions if you want to understand our fanaticism.

Whether Constantine was good for Christianity or not is a matter of debate. Personally I think not. Christianity never does well when it is adopted by the state.

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This seems to imply the possibility for cryptic christians, even in the modern age. I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on that issue.

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Yes, I’d agree that there could be such thing as believers who stumble into relationship with God apart from exposure to missionaries or the bible. In fact, I remember a book about the discovery of Christological sybolism in unreached people groups but I can’t recall the title.

Such “nature-revealed” faith could be sufficient for salvation, and typical missionary work in sucha circumstance would merely provide further explanation about a God they already know about. However, this is highly speculative since it is based on a single verse of the bible who’s original intent was a negative point to demonstrate that non-christians are “without excuse” rather than a positive point that some could be saved apart from traditional evangelism.

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Before Christ there were the sacrifices that were required for salvation. There was a plan for salvation at all times. But after Christ, since He purchased us with His blood we are now His and through Him is the only offer for salvation now.

This is a hard question to answer. Yes there are restrictions in some countries, but you also have to trust that God is still giving these guys some slack. God is not an unjust God, dont let all the Hellfire and Damnation Christians get to you too much. There are many missionaries doing their best to spread the Word across the globe!

Children are completely innocent! They get a free ride!

Because it is usually true. Sure there are some seemingly decent people but God still requires Faith in order for your “good works” to be justified!

Now about the unable to grasp the truth part is because God intentionally withholds wisdom from them, until they step away from their iniquity. It would suck to have many many wise evil people running around. The world would be in much worse shape. If God poured out wisdom to understand certain things into evil people this could be dissasterous!

God creates all things. When you establish a rule then you create rule breakers! In this case when you say this is good then it means the other is bad!

God is very concerned about Humans. God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son, and whosoever that believeth in Him shall have everlasting Life!

There is no requirement that states God can’t, in all His perfection, create imperfection.

Such is the way of the world and the humans in it!

Completion? Nope not all phrophecies have some to pass.

Question all things. God does not mind questions in the least and the Bible states to Question all things!

God really is not looking for Blind faith. IF you keep the Faith it will be reconciled!

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Astral,

   Doesn't the idea that children are born innocent conflict with the idea of original sin?

   If children are born innocent, why wouldn't someone (theoretically) be able to maintain that innocence?