Complication

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
1

Recently I have been pondering a certain point.

If everything is created by one being why all the complication?

The most simplistic beings on this realm are so overtly intricate we don’t understand most of them. It is bizarre if one really thinks about it. If one being or beings created this world why all the trouble?

I am not contesting God/s here I just wish for people’s views.

My view is that all this is illusory. This complication is just our mind’s grasping for straws of reality. But, I am certainly open to people’s opinions and in fact am looking forward to them.

2

Complications are complications. One thought I can give that makes alot of sense, is that perhaps a being doesn’t want us to have proof it exists. If we did, this would change things dramatically. This would unwind so many questions. If we knew we just may then know how to attack it the most. There could be very good reasons for complications. But the complications aren’t always here because they are complicated. It could be that we make them complicated. Dawkins calls it Meme, perhaps it should be simple. From child birth we want to believe something simply created us. Maybe it should be that simple. From there maybe the only confusion is finding which religion is the correct one. Or perhaps I’m wrong. Maybe the being doesn’t really care. We could just be an experiment. Maybe our universe is a small atom in a bigger universe or a cell in a person. It could be possible. Our universe is so huge it could be even bigger than we could ever imagine.

You know I’m just throwing out possibilites. But maybe a being or beings want it to be extremely simple. Maybe it’s why we want to feel something created our universe. Maybe that’s what we should believe simply but we make it more complicated.

It seems that biblical views defy science, but I don’t necessarily think so. Science has things yet discovered. Call what Jesus did miracles, or perhaps call it illusion, magic, something to the unseen knowledge of ourselves.

Just thoughts.

3

I have a personal Question for you Club, If you dont mind me asking.

At one time you were a very radical Theist. You have informed me as of late you are now Agnostic, I am Curiouse:

I once told you that what you believed was real for you, and that all that mattered was that you believe it and it fufilled your soul. that no matter what anyone else thought or said for you it would be, and is real.

On that note, Knowing that, Why did you change?

4

Irrelevant to the topic but I’ll answer, sure.

I don’t believe I ever said all that mattered was that I believed it and it fulfilled my soul. I said I couldn’t be atheist if I wanted to be. I could not lose my belief on the account of what anyone said. I don’t see myself as being totally incorrect previously. I see that I found out for myself that both possibilities are highly possible. I quit praying, going to church, and filling my head with thoughts of God. After I lost the attachment I was able to see arguments more clearly and more unbiased. So unlike many people on this site and you. I understand where the atheist comes from and where the theist comes from. It’s not only religion that has this perspective bais problem, it’s atheists too. I think agnosticism is the most sensitive and understanding position one can have, definitely for myself. If you go into an argument believing your opposer is just confused as hell then you have no business being in a debate. That’s one lesson I learned, I’d advise many others to learn it as well.

5

Thanks for the answer, But I think you misunderstood what I said on some parts let me clarify:

  1. You never said:

I once told you that what you believed was real for you, and that all that mattered was that you believe it and it fufilled your soul. that no matter what anyone else thought or said for you it would be, and is real.

Thats what I told YOU, in an earlier debate.

I seam to remember expressing both views and many other’s actualy, So that would make me completely unbiased twords one or the other.

And, I am unsure if your telling me I dont understand where the Atheist comes from or where the Theist comes from. If you read my post’s, not just the ones I debate with you, you’ll see I know more than you give me credit for about either and some other titles which are discused on here periodicaly.

Also please take into account that I make it a personal Hobey to know more about someone’s belief then they themselves do. With the exception of Gnostism or Agnostism. As those can very depending on the person’s Personal experiances and have no real rules or creed’s by which to folow except those made up and created by the individual follower’s own mind.

You are right, stepping back allow’s you to see things about anything. It’s called looking at the big picture. I seam to remember sugesting just that to you and others on several occasion’s…Glad you finaly did.

I am curiouse though as to why you would think me Biased in the first place?

I defend and smash every belief you could name. How does this make me biased? Or did you think me biased because I was Bashing a belief that you held at that point in time? I could bash Agnostism or Atheism (And I have and do ocasionaly) But what diferance does it make what side of the field I play on at any given point in time? I may bash you or something else in this thread then turn around and 5 seconds later defend “you” or it in the next.

Ask around, or look for yourself the evidence speaks for itself. I am Complete Chaos or True Neutrality. I have no side and no allies or enemies. Only those I choose to be such at any given point in time.

You Humans search for a God ('s) or thing ('s) to Follow or Explain what you dont Understand, I on the other hand and a few others here are OUR OWN, God’s of ourselves.
What I do on this site is try to help others become “THEIR OWN”.

It’s really that simple…

6

Thanks for the answer, But I think you misunderstood what I said on some parts let me clarify:

  1. You never said:

I once told you that what you believed was real for you, and that all that mattered was that you believe it and it fufilled your soul. that no matter what anyone else thought or said for you it would be, and is real.

Thats what I told YOU, in an earlier debate.

I seam to remember expressing both views and many other’s actualy, So that would make me completely unbiased twords one or the other.

And, I am unsure if your telling me I dont understand where the Atheist comes from or where the Theist comes from. If you read my post’s, not just the ones I debate with you, you’ll see I know more than you give me credit for about either and some other titles which are discused on here periodicaly.

Also please take into account that I make it a personal Hobey to know more about someone’s belief then they themselves do. With the exception of Gnostism or Agnostism. As those can very depending on the person’s Personal experiances and have no real rules or creed’s by which to folow except those made up and created by the individual follower’s own mind.

You are right, stepping back allow’s you to see things about anything. It’s called looking at the big picture. I seam to remember sugesting just that to you and others on several occasion’s…Glad you finaly did.

I am curiouse though as to why you would think me Biased in the first place?

I defend and smash every belief you could name. How does this make me biased? Or did you think me biased because I was Bashing a belief that you held at that point in time? I could bash Agnostism or Atheism (And I have and do ocasionaly) But what diferance does it make what side of the field I play on at any given point in time? I may bash you or something else in this thread then turn around and 5 seconds later defend “you” or it in the next.

Ask around, or look for yourself the evidence speaks for itself. I am Complete Chaos or True Neutrality. I have no side and no allies or enemies. Only those I choose to be such at any given point in time.

You Humans search for a God ('s) or thing ('s) to Follow or Explain what you dont Understand, I on the other hand and a few others here are OUR OWN, God’s of ourselves.
What I do on this site is try to help others become “THEIR OWN”.

It’s really that simple…

7

Ok lol.

I never stepped back on account of your advice. I wanted to rebel from religion restraints, morals to be specific. So no credit to you, I’d never want that :slight_smile:.

One picture you might look at is spelling. You may be foreign, or uneducated, w/e. I wouldn’t bother if it was a few words once in a while but it’s about 5 or 6 a post for you. That’s just some advice for you mr. chaotic or neutral. Not a position that sits well I feel however. You can’t be completely neutral. If you’re completely chaotic and unbiased you never really trust what you believe which only means it’s ignorant to argue people being wrong when you might argue yourself the next day. My thoughts.

8

I wouldnt take the credit even if it was mine to take, advice is advice it gives no credit to the one giving it, only to the one takeing it.

So either way the credit is your’s because it was you who chose to make the decision… :smiley:

Very astute of you to sugest such a thing, However:

I think you dont understand…Still…

The Universe in itself is one of Chaos and Neutrality.

The Universe is contantly changing, it is infinite. To Know somthing today is to say it is falacy tomorow. Let me give you a personal example from your own life:

Your were a God fearing/loveing Christian…
Now You arnt.

Get the Point?..No?
Let me explain:

You were a Christian for whatever reason, then one day you woke up and said…What if…>What if it really isnt all there is…What if theres more???

Doubt that a beleif you held so tightly was falacy, (Snaps fingers) Poof!!! In the begining you Knew God to be true, real Jesus your saviour…Then you found he wasnt neccesary or needed anymore…

Get it now?

In such a Universe the Only position of stability is one of instability, Or rather One in sinc with the Universe itself. Your headed that way…Keep going and pay no attention to me.

So you see while everythihng you have said may be true to one who doesnt Comprehend such a Universe, It however is just the opposite to one who does…

And as far as my spelling goe’s…Well if that is what maters, matters, mater’s, maders, madders…ETC, Then your missing the point to begin with.

Get of the semantics train, see whats ment behind the words rather than looking at the words themselve’s.

9

Get the point? Of course. I didn’t say no did I?

I get the point but you’re not totally correct. There are many truths you argue for that will not be fallacies tomorrow. Such as logic for one, which actually defeats that whole idea of it being a fallacy tommorow. But you are halfway correct and I do hear what you’re saying. Futhermore I never said I was incorrect believing in God, I don’t see myself as being wrong. I do not argue against myself being wrong for the idea that I might possibly be a God fearing Christian tomorrow. That would be a fallacy.

Why should I not pay attention to you?

Lol, you humor me Watcher. And I almost believe you can type with your anus. Good points though, anus.

10

Semantics is the study of meaning. He isn’t on any “semantics train” when he calls attention to your spelling. Most of us should be able to understand what words you are using (although your spelling makes it take a little longer), so I can understand your point: is spelling so important if my points are understood?

I just wanted to correct you on the misuse of “semantics”.

11

True. And I was only pointing out that out because it makes him seem uncredible. Who wants to listen to a guy who mispells words 9 or 10 times in one post. It’s almost a respect thing. You take the time to type correctly and I’ll take the time to read your post. Even if the purpose of the post is utterly confuse me, or your anus’s post that is. Lol, could be part of the spelling problem.

12

Club29, I think Aristotle is quoted as saying that it is the mark of an educated man to be able to consider an argument without believing it. I believe it because I saw it on certain T-shirt designs. Sapere aude.

mrn

13

Club,

What good will logic do you when and if science proves religion is true?

Religion…Most religion defies logic, as does 90% of the Universe.

have you studdied any Chaos theory? You might find that the theories in themselves are completely Illogical as is most of what I write…However, Very few disagree with me on such matters.

Perhaps I am wrong in everything it is certainly possible, Perhaps I am right…

I prefer to think of myself as Neither. But that wont stop me from debateing somthing.

Why debate when there is no real point or you dont care if your wrong or right?

  1. Because I can.

  2. Because most of what I say can not be refuted simply because I believe in an Infinate Universe and can defend any topic Indefinantly with infinite possibilities.

  3. and really this is the most important one…To Learn.

Learn what you ask? Anything I desire. I have no limitations to what I will say or do or what illusion’s I will present to see the reactions and mind’s of other’s. How you think, How you live, How you tick, from the inside of your mind’s eye to the outside of your death…And beyond.

You see Unlike you I “know” the Universe is Infinate. And I “know” what’s beyond Death. But than again…Im not Human either now am I…Or is that just another illusion???..Perhaps I am Human…Maybe. Than again I could be Lucifer as I claim to be in another Post.

But that would mean your turning from God was a mistake wouldn’t it?

Anyway, You cant defeat a being who is the oposite of logic with logic, simply because that being will use it to defeat you…And will win, every time because unlike the one who believes in logic and binds themself to it, the Being who doesnt has no bound’s and is Infinate.

So please dont throw Logic at me, I’ll laugh at you, then I’ll smash your reality to pieces and watch you struggle to pick them up and put them back together to form the frail reality which is your life…Actualy I wont…Because you wont comprehend most of what I say, Just as your takeing this personal rather than seeing it for what it really is…Oh wait, now your thinking…What?WTF???

And if your answer to the above is: No I haven’t taken it personal or some other rehtoric, Then please instead of replying with a problematic answer, reply istead with what this IS I have written and well see what happen’s.

Have fun. :laughing:

14

Lol, don’t worry, I don’t take anything you say personal.

I do have a question though. What in the universe defies logic?

15

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…

Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray…

16

Chaos. The Universal Constant in all thing’s. Infinity itself defies logic.

Logic says if there is a begining there must be an end. Logic also state’s ther must be a beginging to all thing’s adn an end to all thing’s.

Non logic says: Everything is Infinate, There is no begining and will be no end.

I am the First, I am the last, I am all thing’s.

This is illogical…Yet it is true for everyone and everything.

Existance is Infinate. Death is not Final.

What makes since to the Illogical mind Baffles the Logical who try to understand without realizing it just is.

This is the simplicity your Father spoke of. The Universe is created simplisticaly itself ever creating evre destroying.

Complicated isnt it…And illogical. Hopefully with this you understand.

Perhaps I am Lucifer, Perhaps I am Azazel. I know this, I am that I am, and will be that I am untill, I am that I am not.

Simplistic complication’s.

And now you also know the issue behind my spelling and why it is…Iradic.

17

Beginning may imply an ending but does not necessitate it.

If there is no beginning, there is nothing created.
As I responded to another, it is still possible to be created in the beginning and continue – eveterally…for ages of ages.

Like the angels who were created with the universe.
(“Let there be light!” And light was made.)
I’ve heard the angels were tested the moment they were created,
and for some mysterious reason, Satan and a third of the angels fell.
From some occasion of pride, I’ve heard.

18

Do you know why Lucifer and his Angels fell?

Do you know that it was Azazel and not Lucifer who refused to bow before Adam?

Do you also know that Adam and Eve were not the first? That the first was actualy a Women? Lilith. That she seeing her independance from Adam refused to be second to him rather than equale and in doing so disobeyed God?
That she Not satan, not Lucifer, Not Azazel was the first to be imprisoned or rather sent to Hell?
Do you also know that is why Eve was made “from” Adam? being such she would not unto herself be whole, and therefore would serve Adam as Lilith would not.

Without the Fall of Azazel and Lucifer God would not have the Good vs Evil ratio there is now (What IS Good? What IS Evil?). They were cast down because God needed them to be. He is an Omnipotent being therefore Knew there actions before they were created and knowing this created them to serve his Pupose.

They are Pupet’s, Just as Free will is an Ilusion to man from God the omnipotent who knows your choices and your evils before you were ever brought out of the womb. You have no free will as your choices are already destined from the begining of time.

You, Yourself believe everything I have said…IF. You believe 1 thing.

  1. God is Omnipotent.

If you do not Believe this, than your god is not God. For a God can be nothing else.

So my sweet Human…What is your choice?

Do you believe in God, OR Do you believe in Yourself?

There is your logic…Human.

It is logic which says if there was no begining than nothing was created.
Logic is limited not Infinate as it has Boundries to what it can see or acomplish.

Illogic is Infinate and has no boundries. Your are speaking with an Illogical Being. I have given you a choice, choose, or choose not to choose, it matters not to me, You have already made the choice within yourself…And that is all that matters… :evilfun:

19

Very interesting argument. But if God determined me to do everything I do, there would be the point to me being subjective. Further, knowing actions ahead of time does not necessitate compelling those actions.

God can do everything, but permits freedom to choose life or death. (Exodus)

20

You would think that was an argument to what I said, wouldnt you?

You do not seam to understand the Logic which you are useing and defending…Amuesing.

God can permit anything he want’s, But He already “Knows” what you are going to choose, therfore eliminateing any choice. Your fate is predestined by an Omnipotent being. He know’s already what you will and wont do and already knows wether or not you will reach heaven or be sentanced to hell.

You have no choice nor freedom as it is already known by God what will happen.

You, can do as you wish. But it will not change the fact you are just a puppet. Just as God knows wether you will listen to me and defy him, or wether you will not…He know’s. So your choice is irelevent. The onlyone in the dark here is you…Human.

I am not here to change your mind or turn you away from God it doesnt matter he knows my actions just as he knows your’s. Mine is to Inform you that your life is an Illusion and that your are NOT free to choose. Because you fate is already known by God.

Simplicity is Complexity.