Creation Makes Creator

Let’s concede God created the world, or God created creation. Creation would be as significant as God. Creation would be as significant as the creator. Creation created God. Creation created the creator. Without creation there is no creator. Creation and creator are, in this sense, on the same level. Creation and creator are. Further, God being the creator, God would only be part of existence, existence including both creator and creation. Therefore, existence as a whole would encompass, would exceed God or would encompass and exceed a creator. A creator cannot be without creation. A creator makes creation, a creation makes a creator.

Creator is creation and creation is creator. Creator and creation are the same. Creator is. Creation is. Creator and creation are. Is what? Are what? Existence. All is existence. All that is is existence.

On the transcendental level of reality,
things like creation, first cause, eternity, etc.
Are a lower level of reality.

So, what WOULD you call God before God actually created something?
Would God be any less than God before the creation of the Universe and everything in it albeit we would have no knowledge of this God beforehand?

The word significant as defined by Google dictionary means:

sufficiently great or important to be worthy of attention; noteworthy.
“a significant increase in sales”

having a particular meaning; indicative of something.
“in times of stress her dreams seemed to her especially significant”

Somehow I do not see your words there - do not intuit them.

Yes, the Universe and its evolution holds such significance and meaning far beyond what we can ever know BUT being equal to its Creator – THAT is where I believe we need to practice a little humility. :evilfun:

Anyone, anything, capable of creating this Universe is far beyond being equal with its creations. The word equal cannot even exist where God is concerned in relation to God’s creations.
As significant as creation is, it cannot hold a candle to its Origin.

_
Re. the op… if creation already existed, why would it then have to create a creator? :-s

A creator god, or… something else?

But MagsJ - would you not want to know where you came from…would you not wonder about your beginnings – your REAL beginnings?

Would you not want answers to your Who, What, Where, When, How and Why?

I suppose that for many, it is enough that we are here but for others – we absolutely need to know what the canvas looked like before the Painter started to paint and who the Painter IS.

That is not what I was inferring, though… how on Earth did you get that^ from what I said? I asked a very simple and specific question, is all - I think that you conflated my question, with your mind. :confused:

I will await the op’s response to my inquiry, before I contribute further…

Obviously I must have conflated your question with my mind.
That is just one of the ways in which my mind works. :laughing:

By “creation” I took this to ALSO mean we human beings.

Your question was: if creation already existed, why would it then have to create a creator?

As far as I am concerned, I did give you one legitimate answer as to WHY. Others might have a different one.
Everything is in the “eyes of the beholder”. I took what I thought to be the “direct” path to answer your question.

I suppose I will just wait on others to answer your question in a far simpler way.

This creation-creator parallel in the beginning was spoken in an analogic language, then the dialogue

Ahhhhh, no… no trichotomies/quichotomies/etc. involved in my inquiry, just the creation / creator dichotomy.

Arc said: “I suppose that for many, it is enough that we are here but for others – we absolutely need to know what the canvas looked like before the Painter started to paint and who the Painter IS.

…I still don’t get how you arrived at that^ premise, from what I had said. :slight_smile:

My issue was not with that^ but with how you arrived at the ‘human element’ being included in/added to, the equation?

Funny, when men speak of creating it is about using preexisting elements…not non-existence.

There was no creation because there was no non-existence.

Correct.

Existence always is. Things are created from other things.

Time, “then”, “before” are inappropriate terms here. See reply below.

There are various ways to approach this.

When one refers to something one often refers to the fullness of that thing. One often refers to all of that particular thing.

When one refers to God one refers to the fullness of God. The full extent of God including the associated act of creation. Whether the act occurred or will occur the act is included as one is referring to the fullness of God.

God would be creator, regardless before or after, as the fullness of God is being acknowledged.

Alternative approach dealing with time and sequencing:

Being. Existence.

That’s all that is. That’s all any thing is.

These conceptions of creator and creation are complexities of our making. Stories, narratives created in the process of sorting out our circumstances as conscious beings.

Would there be a before deity created? Did deity create just once? Considering deity is eternal could deity not create numerous times? Indefinitely?

Think about the statement “before God”. Would there be before God? Would there be before being? Isn’t God eternal? Timeless?

Referring to Biblical passage, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). “In the beginning” refers to the heaven relative to the earth. The beginning of the heaven and the earth, that particular creation, not the beginning of existence. In other words there could be other creations, indefinitely.

One could also view it this way. Existence transcends time. Deity transcends time. Time, as we know it, is a contrivance. A tool, a measurement for our purposes relevant on our level of interaction. As stated existence transcends time, existence is beyond time. There would be no “before” in the sense of deity creating. There would be no sequence of events, no order of time as we perceive it.

Time, as we know it, is calculated by the rotation of earth and the orbit of earth around the sun. Alter the system, rearrange that arrangement and that structure of time vanishes, it is destroyed. In other words time is flimsy, time is a contrivance.

Deity transcends time. As deity creates deity creates. It is beyond framework of time. It is beyond structured sequence and measurement. It just is. Time and other frameworks come into play as they concern our particular level of interaction.

Creator and creation are aspects of the same. Being.

Being simply is. Existence simply is. These conceptions of creator and creation are narratives. Complexities of our making.

  1. “sufficiently great or important”

This seems applicable as, according to Biblical scripture, God gave his only son for the world, for creation, for mankind (John 3:16). That suggests something fairly important or fairly significant.

  1. “indicative of something”

This point also applies as creation is indicative of a creator. As stated, creation makes a creator.

I believe both terms are satisfied.

“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” (Philippians 2:5-6)

We are creators. Our creativity, our consciousness as humans is a reflection of the creativity and consciousness of deity.

MagsJ

Again , Your question was: if creation already existed, why would it then have to create a creator?

There being that part of “creation” which stands for us humans beings, it is not so much about having to actually create a creator but to know the creator, to question and to wonder and to imagine this creator.

Perhaps a better word to have used, would not have been “create” a creator, but “re-create” a creator.

Have you ever sat outside looking up at the sky and suddenly you began to reflect on what and who God REALLY is - not as what you have been told but about who this God really is?

daniel j lavender

I am tempted to say “how can we know this” but another part of me feels there could be no difference.

As in “God the Same Yesterday Today and Tomorrow”?

I think that those two words put us on the same level as God - we are being, we are existence.

No, since God is supposedly eternal.

How could we possibly know the answer to that?

Yes, there could be but I do not think that science has found them yet.
What do you mean by "indefinitely? “Ad continuum”…

Can you even imagine what that would look like, feel like? (not much of an answer for you, is it?

Much more so than fairly.

But…

My problem was with the above though. You seem to be placing God and creation on the same level.

I may be wrong here in what you are saying, but you seem to be saying that we
can think of ourselves as being equal to God. That is not what Paul was saying.
He was actually speaking of humility there where our relationships are concerned. You do not get the full message and meaning by simply putting in a small slice of something and giving it your own meaning.

[b]5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

Those^ are your thoughts not mine… I asked something specific, that I wanted an answer to… nothing more or less, than that.

Nope… that’s definitely not the word I would have [preferred to] use(d), but you might have… :wink:

I said exactly what I meant to say, because that was precisely what I wanted an answer to… without any conflation marring the exchange.

I reflect on many and much, things… currently stilling the mind, to ‘think and do’ with laser-like precision… so conflation, be damned. :neutral_face:

I do not want to comfort myself with the notion that existence has always been, but prefer to think about how that could be so… my prerogative.

Creator/creation, an ouroboros of perpetuality… a Oneness.

…but don’t quote me on that… coz I wasn’t there at the time. :confusion-shrug:

I like the fact that, at times, my mind can wander to that thought and get lost in it/lost in the parambulations of the thought-processes of its ultimate premise.

Without creation there is no creator.

Both creator and creation are. In that sense they are on the same level. As originally stated.

Note in the Philippians passage Jesus does not deny equality with God.

Equality is not denied, rather it is viewed as something not to be taken advantage of.

Equality is acknowledged as humility is acknowledged.

Likewise with the following passage. Examine the context:

“Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.” (John 5:18)

(Further context: “19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.”)

In context Jesus does acknowledge God’s ability. However Jesus does not explicitly deny equality with God. It is accepted with humility. Additional similarities between God and Jesus are expressed, reinforcing the idea of equality.

In the above passage, John 5:18, God is acknowledged as the Father. Equality is acknowledged with Jesus, the child of God. Is God not the Father of all? So would that trait not be implied of all children? It is not a claim of arrogance. It is a declaration of respect, of connection and honor. As it is suggested, in our relations we should exercise humility. Especially in relation with God.

Equality with God as children of God is further suggested with Adam and Eve in the book of Genesis: “And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil” (Genesis 3:22). That is a direct declaration from God.

Apostles, scripture, God commands the same mind as Christ. The mind of equality, the mind of clarity and the mind of humility. The same humility is expected of us just as the same equality is bestowed upon us. We are consciousness. We are creators. We are reflections of Deity.

It would? I’ve created a lot of things in my life, but I wouldn’t say they’re all as significant as me. I’ve created a shit while sitting on the can. Is the shit as significant as me?

Well, now you’re reversing the order of events, which makes even less sense. Like the shit I created, one’s creations do not create one’s self.

Yes, creation and creator are, but are they one and the same? I am not yet convinced.

I suppose you could say a creation makes one into a creator, but not that a creation brings the creator into existence. I also take issue with your assertion that creator and creation together exceed either one on their own. Exceed in what sense? In the sheer number of things in existence? Sure. But in moral superiority? In simplicity? In proof of either’s existence? There are a number of ways in which the two together do not exceed either on their own.

Well, this point makes sense, and I suspect is what you are driving at. Yes, existence would have to be before there even is a creator, and therefore if we’re saying creation just is existence (all of existence), then it makes no sense to say the creator comes before the creation. This is the infamous infinite regress of creator and creation. If what you’re trying to explain is existence itself, it seems you are caught in a catch-22 of asserting a creator (or creation event) that depends on creation already being there just in order for it to be.

Nothing wrong with saying God created the universe, just so long as “the universe” is not understood as “all of existence”.