Crucial Difference Between Nietzsche and Nazism.

[Sauwelios]

This is a follow-up to my The Rebirth of Natural Right thread. In that thread, I quoted from Nietzsche’s Nachlass:

NB. The highest man [is] to be conceived of as an image of nature: monstrous abundance, monstrous reason in particulars, as a whole squandering [verschwendend] himself, indifferent thereto:—— [Nietzsche, Nachlass Spring 1884 25 [140], entire, my translation.]

I now wish to look at another note from the Nachlass in the light of this one. In translating that other note, I’ve used Kaufmann’s translation (of Will to Power nrs. 417 and 673) as a basis. Underscores represent indents.

My innovations.Further development of pessimism
_pessimism of the intellect.
_moral critique, dissolution of the last consolation.
Cognition of the signs of decay
_veiled with delusion [is] every firm action
_culture [is] isolated, unjust, thereby strong
_1.) My striving against decay and increasing weakness of personality. I sought a new center.
_2. Impossibility of this striving cognized!
_3.) Thereupon I advanced further down the road of dissolution,—where I found new sources of strength for individuals. We must be destroyers!------
_I cognized that the state of dissolution, in which individual entities can perfect themselves as never before—is an image and individual case of existence in general. Theory of coincidence, the soul [conceived as] a selective and self-nourishing entity[,] extremely shrewd and creative continuously (this creative force [is] usually overlooked! [The soul is usually] conceived only as “passive”)
_I cognized the active force[,] the creative in the midst of the coincidental
_—coincidence is itself only the clashing of creative impulses
_Against the paralyzing sense of general dissolution and incompleteness I posed the eternal recurrence! [Nietzsche, Nachlass Winter 1883-1884 24 [28], entire.]

The first part, about the further development of pessimism through the dissolution of the last consolation, morality, should be compared with the beginning of Beyond Good and Evil aph. 56, the only aphorism of that book that makes explicit reference to the eternal recurrence. There the Übermensch is defined as the man who wills the eternal recurrence.

The second part, about the signs of decay and the conditions of firm action and thereby of culture, should be compared to the early essay “On the Uses and Disadvantages of History for Life”. It seems that Nietzsche here suggests the solution to the problem he raised there, of the discordance between truth and life. The solution seems to be that life incorporate the truth, i.e., that man be made natural.

The third part, which is the rest of the note, is essentially a formulation of the doctrine of the will to power. Existence in general is conceived as coincidence, i.e., as “the gruesome rule of nonsense and chance” (Leo Strauss, “Note on the Plan of Nietzsche’s Beyond Good and Evil”, paragraph 35). Coincidence however is conceived as an active coinciding, a clashing of creative impulses. The doctrine of the will to power, as formulated here, is therefore an extreme individualism. This, I think, is what is meant by “dissolution” (which Kaufmann renders as “disintegration”). I’m reminded of Savitri Devi’s book The Lightning and the Sun. Note that Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke has called Devi “Hitler’s priestess”.

The man “in Time” can have any aim, with the exception of a disinterested one (which would at once raise him “above Time”). He himself is always like a blind force of destructive Nature. (That is the reason why so many thoroughly “bad” characters in literature and in the theatre are so attractive, in their forceful evil.) He has no ideology. Or rather, his ideology is himself, separated from the divine Whole—i.e., it is the disintegration of the Whole (of the universe) for the benefit of himself, and, ultimately, the destruction of himself also, although he does not know it or does not care. [Devi, The Lightning and the Sun, Chapter III. Note: from here on this post is an adaptation of something I wrote more than four years ago (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/human_superhuman/message/64); I’ve ordered the unabridged version of Devi’s book and plan to read it to see whether it accords with the rest of this post, and whether it contains any useful ideas not found in the abridged version.]

This is part of a description of one of three types of man Devi distinguishes. These are the man “in Time”, the man “above Time”, and the man “against Time”. These three types can be defined by the hand of two characteristics, “Lightning” qualities and “Sun” qualities. The Lightning is sudden and intense, the Sun balanced and peaceful. The man “in Time” mostly exhibits “Lightning” qualities, the man “above Time” mostly “Sun” qualities. The Sun represents the Golden Age, the bliss of eternal Being, beyond time/Becoming/the world. Men “above Time” are men like Nietzsche’s Jesus, like Buddha, etc. The Lightning on the other hand represents time itself—Becoming. Men “in Time” are wholly immersed in time, are as destructive as time itself. But men “against Time” are also immersed in time, are also destructive; yet they are so with the Golden Age in mind, they strive for the establishment of a new Golden Age. Nietzsche, however, did not believe in “Golden Ages”:

Ages of happiness.—A happy era is completely impossible, because men want only to desire it, but not to have it, and every individual, if he has good days, learns virtually to pray for unrest and misery. The destiny of men is designed for happy moments (every life has those), but not for happy eras. Nevertheless, this idea, as a heritage of past ages, will endure in the human imagination as “the place beyond the mountains,” for since ancient times, the concept of the age of happiness has been inferred from that state when, after powerfully exerting himself in hunting or war, man surrenders to rest, stretches his limbs, and hears the wings of slumber rustle around him. It is a false conclusion when man imagines, according to that old habit of mind, that after whole periods of misery and toil, he could experience such a state of happiness in corresponding intensity and duration. [Things Human, All Too Human, section 471, entire.]

Now Devi said the following about men “against Time”, among whom she counted Hitler:

“Vishnu”—the World-Sustainer—is the tendency of every being to remain the same and to create (and procreate) in its own likeness; the universal Life-force as opposed to change and thereby to disaggregation and death; the Power that binds this time-bound Universe to its timeless Essence—every manifested being to the Idea of that being, in the sense Plato was one day to give the word “Idea.” All men “against Time” (all centres of action “against Time,” in the cosmic sense of the word) are “embodiments of Vishnu.” They are all—more or less—“Saviours of the world”: forces of Life, directed against the downward current of irresistible change that is the very current of Time; forces of Life tending to bring the world back to original timeless Perfection; to that glorious projection of the Unmanifested that begins every Time-cycle. [Devi, ibid., Epilogue.]

But Nietzsche saw that this “tendency”, this “opposition”, was in vain; that there is no “timeless Essence” to the universe, no such thing as a Platonic “Idea”, and no soul in the Christian sense, an unchangeable and indivisible center of personality. “We must be destroyers!”—that is to say, we have to be men “in Time”, because every striving “against Time” is futile! Even Devi herself divined something of this when she said that every man “against Time” except the “last” came much too late, or a little too early. But may we not see Nietzsche as the “last (great) man against Time”—the one who understood that it was futile to strive against time, that he must be a destroyer?

[iambiguous]

@Sauwelios

This is a follow-up to my The Rebirth of Natural Right thread. In that thread, I quoted from Nietzsche’s Nachlass:

NB. The highest man [is] to be conceived of as an image of nature: monstrous abundance, monstrous reason in particulars, as a whole squandering [verschwendend] himself, indifferent thereto:—— [Nietzsche, Nachlass Spring 1884 25 [140], entire, my translation.]

The problem of course is all the folks who insist this is actually a description of the lowest man.

And, unlike Nietzsche, they are still around to make the claim.

[Trajicomic]

Sauwelios, you amateur! Still scraping and gnawing and gnashing against Nietzsche’s bones, you Priest?!

You still have so much to learn, you zealous dogmatist. What does Nietzsche represent? He represents the end of Christianity and Christendom…in Europe! But he did not mark the end of Christianity around the world. World War 2 represented the finally thrashing about by Christians in European history. Christianity, as a man, as Christ, had grown old after 2000 years of absolute, spiritual success. But finally, at the approach of the 20th century, had become an old and brittle man. Who was the last, final Christian of European history? It was Nietzsche, son of a Lutheran, True Christian, Pastor and Priest.

Nietzsche was the Caretaker of Christianity, taking the casket of European history, the Golden Age, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, laying it all to rest. Christianity had died in Europe. Nietzsche was the “destroyer”, only in the sense that he had buried the old man we europeans had known previously as “God Our Father”. Europe is dead. The Old World is overrun, conquered by Jews and Judaism. The Jews have conquered Germany, the final outpost and bastion of racial and ethnic europeans, to the middle eastern hordes. Jews have conquered Europe and “European” history, making it into their own [per]version.

Christ, and God, are both dead, Father and Son. But this does not mean, truly, that all of Christianity and Christendom has died. Rather, it has moved, across the Atlantic to become precise, into America and the “New World Order”. The NWO reflects this transition of western history, and culture, and european racialism, to a new land, with a new beginning, with a new history.

Nietzsche marks the End of European “Christianity”, and the Beginning of American “Post-Christianity”. The “Nietzscheans” are the indicator of this transition, this Transitory Age. We are about to embark on this new, “Mayan” Age, beginning December 21st, 2012. The Cycle of Christ Our Lord Thy God ends, and a “New Age” begins. The Nietzscheans will do much work, to usher in this new age.

A Master Class and Master Morality are needed, to setup this “Post Christian” aristocracy, a spiritually enlightened and dominating Caste of “Ubermensch”.

Who will become the new Ubermensch Race of Man, Whites? Blacks? Red or Brown skinned Latinos? Regardless of who becomes the new Master Race, the old virtues and values of Christianity have not been touched, but rather, preserved by Nietzscheans. Nietzscheans have completely misunderstood the nature of morality, and have not yet gone “Beyond Good and Evil” BGE as they were supposed.

@Sauwelios

The first part, about the further development of pessimism through the dissolution of the last consolation, morality, should be compared with the beginning of Beyond Good and Evil aph. 56, the only aphorism of that book that makes explicit reference to the eternal recurrence. There the Übermensch is defined as the man who wills the eternal recurrence.

The second part, about the signs of decay and the conditions of firm action and thereby of culture, should be compared to the early essay “On the Uses and Disadvantages of History for Life”. It seems that Nietzsche here suggests the solution to the problem he raised there, of the discordance between truth and life. The solution seems to be that life incorporate the truth, i.e., that man be made natural.

The third part, which is the rest of the note, is essentially a formulation of the doctrine of the will to power. Existence in general is conceived as coincidence, i.e., as “the gruesome rule of nonsense and chance” (Leo Strauss, “Note on the Plan of Nietzsche’s Beyond Good and Evil”, paragraph 35). Coincidence however is conceived as an active coinciding, a clashing of creative impulses. The doctrine of the will to power, as formulated here, is therefore an extreme individualism. This, I think, is what is meant by “dissolution” (which Kaufmann renders as “disintegration”). I’m reminded of Savitri Devi’s book The Lightning and the Sun. Note that Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke has called Devi “Hitler’s priestess”.

This is part of a description of one of three types of man Devi distinguishes. These are the man “in Time”, the man “above Time”, and the man “against Time”. These three types can be defined by the hand of two characteristics, “Lightning” qualities and “Sun” qualities. The Lightning is sudden and intense, the Sun balanced and peaceful. The man “in Time” mostly exhibits “Lightning” qualities, the man “above Time” mostly “Sun” qualities. The Sun represents the Golden Age, the bliss of eternal Being, beyond time/Becoming/the world. Men “above Time” are men like Nietzsche’s Jesus, like Buddha, etc. The Lightning on the other hand represents time itself—Becoming. Men “in Time” are wholly immersed in time, are as destructive as time itself. But men “against Time” are also immersed in time, are also destructive; yet they are so with the Golden Age in mind, they strive for the establishment of a new Golden Age. Nietzsche, however, did not believe in “Golden Ages”:

No, you Nietzschean Priest! You are not listening to your other Nietzschean brethren, who know more and are wiser than you, Iswallows. You haven’t taken true philosophical risks. You have not yet begun to learn. You are too busy reestablishing Dogma and Metaphysics, with your hears and eyes closed. Your eyes are in the dark.

The “Golden Age” represents the raising of a Master Morality, a Noble class of men, Ubermen. America and the “New World” does not have this Master Class or Master Morality, yet. But it will, soon. New Masters, a new aristocracy and master caste, an ‘upper’ or ‘high’ race will establish itself. Western history is Eternally Recurring. In America, a new european age is recycling. We are at 0 AD again. We are expecting the Second Coming of Christ. Why?

Because we need a new “Lord”. We need a new “God”. We need a new Man!!! We need a MAN. We need men.

All of America and American men, are actually boys, children really. They have not become MEN or MAN. They have not done what it takes to bridge the gap between a spiritual childhood, or infancy…to transition into maturity, excellence [of spirit], morality, and adulthood. There are too many “manchildren”, including many of these so called “Nietzscheans”. You are still a boy, Iswallows, in the spiritual sense. You are an infant, in your soul.

This is the age of Rebirth and of Reincarnation. This marks the Second Coming as Rebirth and Reincarnation. The European soul, and history, is becoming American. America has rebirthed European culture, Christianity, as Postchristianity.

You are so blind, Iswallows. I wish you would begin to SEE…

[Trajicomic]

What does a “Golden Age” even mean? Think about it!

Iswallows is wrong, as per usual. He doesn’t even understand the basic concepts. A Golden Age is not a “happy” age. This is decadence and hedonism, a “dark” age. An age of decadence, free sex, free drugs, hedonism, childism, no responsibility or accountability for anyone, no strictness, an age of women, an age of children, an age without Man or Christ or God. An age of LIBERALISM. An age of JEWISHNESS. This is NOT a “golden” age. Happiness is not “golden”.

A Golden Age reflects a SEEDING of the Master Class and Master Race. A Master Morality. What is master morality? The Nietzscheans do not even know! They have not even read Nietzsche, it seems like. They missed the part where N declared that Christianity and Judaism are SLAVE MORALITIES, not MASTER moralities. What is a Master Morality?

Look at Christ Our Lord Thy God, who took ALL BLAME, ALL RESPONSIBILITY on HIS shoulders, as a TRUE MAN would do. He is BURDENED! He is weighted. He is GRAVITY. He is the ABSOLUTE PULL. We all flow into His direction, into His divinity. Why? Because He is the symbol of ABSOLUTE MAN. He is RESPONSIBLE, not just for Himself, but for ALL others. He takes YOUR weakness away from YOU. You are a child, compared to He. You are a boy, compared to He. You are a woman or child, compared to He. He is absolute masculinity. Absolute RESPONSIBILITY! Nobody stands close or near to Christ.

Because men lie.
Because men cheat and steal.
Because men kill.
Because men are evil.
Because men are sinful and commit sin.
Because men rape.

Men do all of these things, and have the FREE CHOICE, FREE WILL, TO BECOME, RESPONSIBLE. But manchildren, will remain boys and children forever, eternally recurring as boys, as children, as women. They will never become responsible for themselves, neither responsible for good nor evil. They are NOT BGE. They NOT “beyond” good and evil. They are UNDERNEATH good and evil. They are spiteful, despicable little worms. They “do not believe good and evil exist!” Like spiteful children, rebelling at the notion of becoming self responsible, self accountable adults!!!

Good and Evil are for ADULTS. Good and Evil is a CHOICE, is FREE WILL. You Nietzscheans fail to understand that to go “beyond” good and evil, you must first ACCEPT THE INEVITABILITY of good and evil. You are GOOD. Or you are EVIL. Which are you?

Do you Know Thyself??? If you know thyself, then you will understand your own soul, your own spirit. You will see, if your eyes are not blinded by darkness, whether you are GOOD or EVIL. Because you ACCEPT yourself for who you are. THEN, after this is completed, only then, can you become “beyond good and evil”.

What is the “golden age”? It is not jewish. It is not hedonistic or decadent. It is Post Christian. It is an age of RESPONSIBILITY, of IMMENSE HARDSHIPS AND STRUGGLE AND PAIN. It is about boy becoming man, excluding women and children. It is about reestablishing gender difference. It is about NOT IGNORING responsibility of Man, and Christ, and God, for all things and all people. To become near to God, is to become near to the Symbol of Christ as well, to become near to the notion of RESPONSIBILITY FOR ALL. You are blamed for all. Because you are the CAUSE OF ALL. You are the causal agent RESPONSIBLE for ALL GOOD and ALL EVIL, not just on earth, but throughout the entire universe. You are ABSOLUTE in your moral agency.

This is universalism and puritanism. You either have this in your soul, or you do not.

The “Golden Age”, marked by Nietzsche, is the rise of a new “Master” class of MEN, not women and children who forever remain irresponsible and careless, stupid and misguided. Men are born with absolute responsibilities, foreign and unknown to women, biologically, chemically, physiologically, psychologically! It’s genetic. It’s biological. It’s “human nature”. It’s scientific and religious and philosophical.

It’s SPIRITUAL.

We will see the rebirth of this new “Master Caste”, in America. Boys becoming men will take this challenge upon their own shoulders, as Christ did, to burden themselves with all the “good” and “evil” in the world. YOU are RESPONSIBLE for ALL!!! The entire weight of the world is on YOUR shoulders because you are POST MAN. You are BEYOND man. You are UBER man.

The Golden Age is NOT about “happiness”. That is something stupid, and fake, and limited. Man is full of emotions, sadness, anger, cowardice, AND happiness. Why focus on just one as if “happiness” is the only emotion worth having or striving for? Man does not discriminate. Post Man, Ubermensch, EXPERIENCES ALL EMOTIONS, sadness, anger, cowardice, happiness, love, hate. These faggots who say “Do not ever hate!” are liars! Hate is part of the cycle of emotion, part of life. These ingrates who say “Do not ever feel sad or angry!” are liars!!! Sadness and anger are parts of the “human” experience! Happiness is but one, measly emotion!

“Happiness” is for women and children and jews. Let THEM become MERELY “happy” with life. For post man, He becomes emotional in the full spectrum. This is “golden”. He becomes sad, at loss, for He has everything to lose. He becomes angry, at failure, for He strives toward success. He becomes cowardly, at death, for He has a reason to survive and struggle. He becomes happy, at sex, for He has seduced his vixen. Post Man is a vast ARRAY of emotions. This man is passionate. This is golden.

Why does POST MAN experience more than others? Why is He so special? Because He is not a weakling, like you, as you are. He struggles, but, he does not lie to Himself as YOU do!!! You, do not have passion as He does. What do YOU have worth living for? What do you VALUE? What is your VIRTUE? For the Postman, these are not sensible questions. It is like asking Postman, “why do you breath?” or “why do you drink water?” And He cannot answer such simple questions. These simple questions are beyond Postman, LIVER of LIFE. He LIVES.

He is not one of the jewish or christian DEATH cultists, who preach slavery and death and “happiness”. God does not care about “happiness”. Why, the fuck, would “God” care about your “happiness” as if this ONE EMOTION OUT OF FOUR, is so damn important and deserves so much attention compared to the others???

You Nietzscheans, Sauwelios, make me sick!

[James_S_Saint]

Okay Tc, stop beating around the bush and tell us what you Really think.

[Only_Humean]

Enough edgy comedy-account nonsense, Traj. Any more will earn you a warning; this includes mock-outrage.

[SIATD_v2]

All I know is that the blondies waited a long time to rule the world, so it isn’t surprising that when given the chance they got a bit carried away…

[Trajicomic]

@Only_Humean

Enough edgy comedy-account nonsense, Traj. Any more will earn you a warning; this includes mock-outrage.

Ok I will heed your suggestion, but you should still admit I’m right about N and Master Morality.

[Sauwelios]

@Trajicomic

@Only_Humean

Enough edgy comedy-account nonsense, Traj. Any more will earn you a warning; this includes mock-outrage.

Ok I will heed your suggestion, but you should still admit I’m right about N and Master Morality.

That does indeed seem to be your only point, and no, you’re wrong about it. Nietzsche’s Jesus and Buddha are not slave-moral types, but decadent master-moral types. According to Nietzsche, Buddhism is, as I once put it, the Aryan winter religion. And Nietzsche’s Jesus is basically a Buddhist.

What Devi calls “Golden Ages” are “Sun” ages—that is, ages of peace etc. Aryan winters.

[The_Golden_Turd]

Please tell me oh Swatzika totting one that your appreciation of the differences of the Nazi and Nietzscheans ideals are greater than Nietzsche desiring to kill and destroy more than Hitler? Silly me saw in Nietzsche a perpetuation of Aristotle’s concept of slavery. I don’t like it when I have a nicer, more PC outlook on Nietzsche than you, one of his modern, motivated internet disciples. Cause that is just not helping your case with me in the least when you do stuff like this.

Besides, am I the only one who’ve read Trotsky’s military works? He was a later critic of Nietzsche, and did put emphasis on the need to destroy first, but had huge emphasis on building… the dialectical propriety of Marxist dialectics was geared first to destruction before building, but his emphasis on intentions were clearly to the latter. I myself put creation as a higher concern. It’s a hindu trinity for a reason, which is the nature of all trinities, emphasis on one creates reliance on others… stuff starts behaving like the Ennegram when giving a fanatical acceptance to only one aspect of it. You focus too heavily on Shiva, other aspects will emerge, and will subjectively fetishize your technical capacity and purposeful pursuits while over time undermining your comprehension of the ideal. Everyman build his own web and prison by this means. It’s why Swami Vivekananda was made to worship Shiva by Ramakrishna… Vivekananda didn’t like Shiva early on, had no use for the ideals, was more interested in life. Ended up worshiping death before he grasped it.

However, I don’t think Hitler was this philosophical… yes, he was very philosophical in mode to the fetishized philosophy of the germans, though NOT a great philosopher himself. But I can accuse Nietzsche of a similar prejudice to a very similar extent. He was sick, and modeled a selfish philosophy purely around how to make him well and systematically prevent illness and unhealth from reemerging. His results is about as appealing as a deep fried shit sandwich, and Hitler clearly ate than Manwich and it stained his shirt… hence why Nazis wore brown shirts.

Come on now, I know you can make a better defense than this. This is like, the most horrible defense of Nietzsche I’ve ever read… major difference between Nietzsche and Hitler was because Hitler was all sentimental and held out for the good times while Nietzsche was more efficient at destruction? Your essentially calling Hitler a joy loving pussy pacifist who was too lenient on people. This is SOOOOOO not convincing me that Nietzsche is a good recommended read to our impressionable youth.

And TC is clearly using a rhetorical crescendo of emotion for effect to prop up a counter idea… I see nothing inherently wrong with it, it’s been used many times in the past successfully for good and bad reasons… though never by TC. Hell, Hitler was fond of it (since we’re one that topic), used to get up there and pulpit pound the scapegoats away. Just he had more sense of how to exploit the effect… hence why he became commander of europe form his homebase in a rowdy beer hall, and TC just like, annoys people. The inability to cope with this effect makes people susceptible to bad philosophy, a philosopher capable of reasoning, who pays attention to how emotions and logic mix, and navigate this and produce a counter product of beautiful elegance and design. I don’t see how this can possible be of a concert to a moderator, as it’s a legitimate mode of philosophy, practiced by many of it’s greatest stars. Especially when the topic is Nietzsche and Hitler, two past masters of it. Dear God, if you can’t use it here, we might as well all take a screw driver to our heads and lobotomize randomly our left hemisphere till the need for it goes away. Much wiser than trying to suppress a legitimate means to discussion. Hit TC for immaturity and lack on intelligence in using it and less for the method. Next thing I’ll read logging on is syllogisms will be outlawed in the Rant House, or the use of abstract words in the Mundane Babble section, or references to organic chemistry in the biology section. Your confusing TC’s method with TC’s effects arising from poor execution. The Method is principally okay, it’s just used by TC in the most amateurish fashion imaginable. I know, I was really, really good at mock mimicking it for a while here on this site.

[The_Golden_Turd]

Also… why would a happy period, even if faked but still legitimately experienced as real, be considered a period of Aryan White Winter- her category for it makes no sense? We had this discussion before of the Bi-Polar effects, Nietzsche pretty much hit a sensory and emotive monism in his descent. I only know about this chick from this thread and from the link you gave to The Dwarf on Nietzsche forum of Emperor Julius the Apostate after the failed Dionysian procession, but I know every hindu from india has a concept of Monism/Non-dualism… and I can’t see how monism is declared as a happy-delusional era in a Nietzschean sense, as that’s inherently dualistic… you can’t have monistic happiness. Never heard of that before. They aim at peace of soul, or even beautification, but even this is dualistic… however… this ain’t making sense to me. Seriously, you gotta re-explain this Aryan White Winter Concept again against HER cultural backdrop of having a cognitive understanding of what the dualism vs non-dualism divide would be when looking at your comparision of Nietzsche vs Hitler from your use of her as a method to explaining it, cause it’s causing some weird feed back queefs over here in it’s logic chain when I process it.

[Sauwelios]

@Contra-Nietzsche

Also… why would a happy period, even if faked but still legitimately experienced as real, be considered a period of Aryan White Winter- her category for it makes no sense? We had this discussion before of the Bi-Polar effects, Nietzsche pretty much hit a sensory and emotive monism in his descent. I only know about this chick from this thread and from the link you gave to The Dwarf on Nietzsche forum of Emperor Julius the Apostate after the failed Dionysian procession, but I know every hindu from india has a concept of Monism/Non-dualism… and I can’t see how monism is declared as a happy-delusional era in a Nietzschean sense, as that’s inherently dualistic… you can’t have monistic happiness. Never heard of that before. They aim at peace of soul, or even beautification, but even this is dualistic… however… this ain’t making sense to me. Seriously, you gotta re-explain this Aryan White Winter Concept again against HER cultural backdrop of having a cognitive understanding of what the dualism vs non-dualism divide would be when looking at your comparision of Nietzsche vs Hitler from your use of her as a method to explaining it, cause it’s causing some weird feed back queefs over here in it’s logic chain when I process it.

It’s not “Aryan white winter”, just “Aryan winter”.

As for the paradox of monistic happiness, compare http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=405142&postcount=3, and note that Nietzsche, in that aphorism about happy ages, means something negative by happiness, not something positive. That is to say, it consists in the absence of toil and misery. Note how often that passage from the Bhagavad Gita uses negations:

• neither longing for nor hating light;
• neither longing for nor hating busy activity;
• neither longing for nor hating darkness;
• not perturbed by changing conditions;
• not shaking.

And these are only the explicit negations, mind you.

There are two kinds of negativity. For instance, -1 is a negative number. However, it’s only relatively negative, but absolutely positive (1). The only absolute negative is 0, i.e., complete neutrality or absence. Now “sattva”—i.e., what I’ve called the sattva of rajas—seems like 0 to the unwise, but is really like +1 (rajas) or -1 (tamas): we could symbolise it as ~1. The three gunas of sattva are then the real 0.

The Buddhist seeks and attains peace from the absolutely positive, i.e., from the relatively positive as well as from the relatively negative. Nietzsche’s philosophy, however, is the philosophy of the absolutely positive. It is therefore the noble opposite of Buddhism, which is also noble,—just as +1 is the relative opposite of -1, which is also relative. Their absolute opposite however is Christianity, which is ignoble: hence Nietzsche’s defense of Buddhism in sections 20-23 of The Antichrist.

Speaking of defense, by the way: my post was not meant as one at all.

[The_Golden_Turd]

Sorry, it was not meant that way, I just filed Aryan Winter Hygiene under something dumfucks in a camp in Idaho would say back n my mind back during that original discussion (remember everyone threw a fit though against the wording of that phrase- I was the only one who bothered to inquire if it had a non-offensive meaning), given the word Aryan and two attached words. I remembered it was three words, and when I accessed the memory, I saw a fat white unshaved hillbilly waving a upside down america flag holding a beer can while it was snowing. That’s the visual access to the memory- it’s call number, but not the memory itself- the memory itself is the discussion. Not all my memory is stored visually, just in this case it is. I know most people don’t have as much variability in accessing memory as my personality type, so to like, 4/5ths of the people here saying this as a explanation won’t make much sense.

Anyhoo… I am aware of Nietzsche’s sense of strife and advancement theorem, in who’s his friend and who is his enemy, etc. It’s not lost on me, but we’re in a unfortunate position that be it a -1 or a +1, both are not non-dualist, they are dualist either way. Hence my exclaim of the fantasy/phantogasm of happiness. I can accept a logically applied and logically appreciated ‘Qualified Non-Dualism’ by you…as in western physics’ concept of Monism… were everything is one but your quite dualistic in your thinking. Dogen wasn’t even a Non-Dualist, as much as he claimed to be… as he was observing the phenomena, he very likely negated his sense of self, but still was dualistic enough to write about it afterwards. It’s all a synthesis that in either way still remains well locked in the Limbric system bouncing between activating and negating the two Amygdala. As we’ve been though this several times, both Neitzsche and I are predominately conscious in the Supplementary Motor Areas, BETWEEN the two Amygdala.

The Amygdalas

Supplementary Motor Areas

We’re is a awkward position here, as neither I nor Nietzsche can lay claim to zen non-dualism (though you can) by the damn fact we would have to shut down a whole hemisphere in order to pull it off, but we would be resultingly dominated by the effects of the amygdala in that hemisphere as a result, and the neurochemical specialization resulting in this. Also having a hemisphericetomy or lobotomy works well too. It’s why some people can take brain significant brain damage to a hemisphere, and come out the same, just with a bad memory and nerve issues, while others with a different personality type can will be utterly fucked, and after rehabilitation if the other hemisphere is left intact significantly change personality wise.

In either case, you end up with a dualism no matter how you process those neural chemicals, put emphasis on segregating a amygalada or bringing one close, it’s all dualism either way for someone like me or Nietzsche. We can go deeper and count the cranial nerves and go for a fun atlas ride of the nerves via brain region to brain region, noting parallels between Nietzsche’s writing on psychology and what the regions they pass through are known to do if you wish. Most Nietzsche and I can do is selectively switch off and on various parts of the brain, we’re by default multiplexes- one section dominates then another, then another, then another… we’re just the switch board operator. Much like the Nietzschean superman character Leto II was the switchboard operator for all his ancestral memories. It’s all we fucking do in a neurological sense. It’s why someone like me or Nietzsche can claim to be beyond good and evil while being sincere and hypocritical at the same time. It confuses the hell out of people. However, much of the population is either centered around one of the amygdala without conscious access to the other. They can’t consciously open or shut down the other. But they usually aren’t tormented by the divides on either side if they do that like we are.

Your explanation explains your origins
Thalamus and it’s impulse control network

This is the exact opposite of a Dionysian. It’s because at root your not. You know this. Cezar is the type located around the right amygdala, and he receives much of his sensory information from you- but at least he’s capable of being bad ass enough to TRY to be Dionysian. He just can’t cause he’s shut out of the left hemisphere consciously for the most part. It’s why he writes better in sincere discussions than when he throws a angry punchline, all that stuff takes place in the left. It comes naturally to you, cause you receive the language particles immediately, and link it up to visual stimuli, while blocking out the monumental flow from my and Nietzsche’s region to yours… hence the impulse control. We’re activated via imagination and energy by the Basal Ganglia, we throttle and control it into doing insane and difficult tasks- literally creating and destroying… then it’s passed further on to you… where you can see the Supplementary Motor Area consciously, have no direct control over it (your control passes though the right amygalda predominately, but also the left under certain circumstances via the dorsal laterals)… instead you take the information and filter the living fucking daylights out of it. Nietzsche noticed Jews on the train do this… how they control their energy, modulate their impulses, etc. It’s cause their culture encouraged this personality type. Your the same, it’s not a racial characteristic, but a personality based one their culture encouraged… it’s the best for accountants, as it focuses on making basic fact formulas such as 1 + 1 = 2. It’s all modular, and can be broken down into symbols, as a fact and a symbol can be the same thing. Alot of Mathematicians are based here.

Let’s breakdown the basal ganglia pathways. There are two main pathways- the direct (which is excitatory, meaning it increases movement/thoughts/feelings), and the indirect (which is inhibitory, meaning it decreases movement/thoughts/feelings). I will talk about these in terms of movement.

Firstly, the direct pathway starts with inputs from cortex (premotor and supplementary motor cortex for example, which help plan movements) to the striatum (putamen). The striatum inhibits the internal segment of the Globus Pallidus (GPi), which would normally inhibit thalamus. Since it is being inhibited, it will not inhibit thalamus, which means thalamus can excite cortex (primary motor cortex for example) and cause movement.

Does that make sense? I hope so, because the indirect pathway is a bit more complex! It begins the same way- cortex sends projections to neurons in striatum. These neurons, which are designated for the indirect pathway, now will inhibit the external segment of the Globus Pallidus (GPe), which normally inhibits the subthalamic nucleus (STN). Since the GPe is inhibited, it will no longer inhibit the STN, which means the STN will excite the GPi. The GPi will then inhibit the thalamus and prevent it from exciting cortex.

Summary:(“>” is an excitatory connection, “-” is inhibitory, and parentheses denote a connection that is not happening due to inhibition)

Direct Pathway: Ctx>Striatum-GPi(-)Thalamus>Ctx

Indirect Pathway: Ctx>Striatum-GPe(-)STN>GPi-Thalamus(>)Ctx

In my next post, I will discuss how dopamine neurons from the Substantia Nigra contribute to these pathways.

mentalsymmetry.com/neurology.php
The brain contains a loop that starts from the cortex, goes through the basal ganglia, and then returns through the thalamus on its way back to the cortex. Twenty years ago, when I first looked at the neurology, it seemed rather obvious that this loop corresponded to the ‘three stage pump’ of Exhorter to Contributor to Facilitator, with Exhorter and Contributor thought using the basal ganglia and the Facilitator using the thalamus. However, it did not make sense how two modes of thought could both share the basal ganglia, and not enough was known about the basal ganglia to tie things down.

Since then, incredible progress has been made. I still remember reading the paper by Schell and Strick in 1984 that first worked out what was happening to this loop as it traversed the thalamus. And then, I believe it was Ann Graybiel at MIT who discovered that the basal ganglia was divided into striosomes and matrix. Now, finally, it appears that the essential circuits have been worked out. And, they appear, thankfully, to be totally consistent with the diagram of mental symmetry. And, also thankfully, I managed to find most of the pertinent details summarized in this book.

‘Borrowing’ one of the illustrations from that book, notice that all of the complicated paths have now been boiled down to four basic paths: the direct and indirect paths, along with the striosomal and subthamalic or hyperdirect path.

My hypothesis is that Exhorter strategy uses the direct path and Contributor thought uses the indirect path.

The direct path enables activity in a general way; the indirect path narrows this down to decide precisely which option will be enabled. Similarly, when we look at the Exhorter and the Contributor, we find that the Exhorter comes up with a general idea, and then the Contributor narrows this down to a specific choice. If you observe the Contributor person, you see that he likes to be in control, but he often does not realize how limited his choices are. As with the typical communist election, one could choose between comrade A and comrade B, but all of the choices had to belong to the communist party.

Dopamine appears to be related to the activity of Exhorter thought. All addictive behavior appears to involve dopamine, and Exhorter strategy is the part of the mind that pushes and prods and fixates. Dopamine encourages the direct path with D1 type dopamine receptors stimulating the direct path and D2 type receptors inhibiting the indirect path.

Dopamine modulates this subcortical loop in order to promote learning. Whenever a step is taken which leads to an expected reward, extra dopamine will be released, encouraging that step to be taken again. In contrast, if the reward is not present, then the level of dopamine will temporarily drop, discouraging that specific step from being repeated. The Contributor person is highly driven by reward and punishment—they motivate him strongly. The Exhorter person lives within reward and punishment; he uses emotional approval and disapproval to motivate the responses of others. In simple terms, the Exhorter person makes a great animal trainer; the Contributor person can be trained by reward and punishment.

This paper says that dopamine plays a major role in the initial stages of learning, but is less active when learning turns into habit. Similarly, the Exhorter person is great at starting a project, but finds it rather difficult to finish something. Instead, he is apt to drop what he is doing and move on when something else comes up that is new and exciting.

Tying together the direct and indirect path is a set of local connections which use acetylcholine, the brain chemical which I suggest is related to concentration. (There are two other acelylcholine circuits in the brain that appear to be related to Teacher and Mercy concentration.) The Contributor person is capable of concentrating upon a plan, ignoring everything that lies outside of this plan as meaningless. Anyone who tries to be in the presence of a Contributor person and carry out a plan which is different than the plan of the Contributor knows what this means. The Contributor person will give off very strong ‘vibes’ that you, along with everything you do, are totally worthless because you are not part of his plan. The Contributor person excels at optimization, taking an existing plan and making it better. This probably involves acetylcholine and loops within the basal ganglia.

What drives all of this is the ‘bottom line’. In the right hemisphere, the bottom line is some Mercy object or experience that is supposed to be improved, such as money, fame, fortune, or some more specific goal. In the left hemisphere, the ‘bottom line’ expresses itself as a Teacher theory that needs to be improved, or some system of structure or order that needs optimizing.

This bottom line is obviously being provided by the striosomal path. It receives its major input from the amygdala and the orbital Frontal cortex—the Teacher and Mercy emotional processors and the Teacher and Mercy internal worlds. And, it sends dopamine back to the basal ganglia (from the substantia nigra pars compacta) with which it can reinforce behavior that enhances the bottom line. And if you place electric probes in the striosomal region of the basal ganglia of rats, then they like to press the button in order to get a small jolt of electricity delivered to their brains. Imagine the poor research assistant who has to observe the rats. One wonders how much his striosomal region is getting stimulated.

The hyperdirect path appears to be another aspect of Contributor thought. It has a fast direct path which is capable of quickly stopping or shutting down the basal ganglia. Damage here can lead to hemiballismus, in which arms or legs literally flail around. The behavior of the Contributor person suggests that he can operate in one of two radically different styles. He can emphasize either control or confidence. The controlling Contributor always has his mental foot on the brake. He is continually shutting down both himself and those around him. The confident Contributor, in contrast, allows his mind to flow and gives freedom to those who are around him. We would conclude that the controlling Contributor is emphasizing the hyperdirect path which uses the subthalamus, whereas the confident Contributor is permitting Exhorter strategy to come up with ideas and then using Contributor choice to choose between these alternatives.

Serotonin is the neuromodulator that appears to be related to Contributor thought. This chemical is used throughout the body, but in the brain it is related to pecking order. The dominant animal in a group will have higher levels of serotonin than his peers. Similarly, the most common way of treating depression and phobia is by increasing brain levels of serotonin. Both of these traits remind one of the confident Contributor, who feels that he is at the top of the pecking order and who decides easily and confidently as he faces situations which would drive other mere mortals into depression or fear.

It is also known that the basal ganglia contains a high level of serotonin receptors, that serotonin modulates motor behavior and that there is significant interaction between dopamine and serotonin, with one tending to inhibit the other. This interaction is hard to decipher because of the many subtypes of serotonin receptors. For instance, serotonin inhibits the activity of dopamine in the ‘striosomal path’. Dopamine release combined with amygdala activity can lead to aggression, which can be suppressed with serotonin. In other words, if you feel strongly about something and get motivated to do something about your feelings, then Contributor strategy can bring you back under control.

This paper contains a simple venn diagram, which I have reproduced here, summarizing current views of dopamine and serotonin. Exhorter strategy is the part of the mind that provides mental energy and emotional motivation. When dopamine is low, then this mental processing becomes inactive. Contributor strategy takes Exhorter energy and channels it and controls it. When serotonin is low, then Exhorter strategy is free to obsess about emotional fixations because Contributor thought is unable to rechannel Exhorter drive. And, without Contributor control, Exhorter drive will express itself through impulsive thought and action.

In the above, Contributor personality type is Supplementary Motor area, with large amounts of testosterone and serotonin, with a large onslaught of excitable dopamine that is restricted by acetylcholine. When we do this, we force ourselves away in disgust and anger from something… or ejaculate in shame and enjoyment because of a secondary feedback loop back to the basal ganglia looped though the amygdala (let’s not go into that, who no’ther issue involving Lord Byron and whipping people… and a whole lotta nastiness)

One thing we don’t do is 1 + 1 = 2. It’s a fact, a methodology… it’s one we have appreciation and control over in a sense, but it’s a awkward control, as we can damn well realize the infinate variations of what 1 can be, as we have to do the actual navigation of the memory and applying it to the various parts of the mind… parts of the brain which don’t quite grasp what one nugget of information means to another. It’s very tiring, and obsessive compulsive disorder and dyslexia is a common occurrence in us. Never in your type though… it’s a hard wired impossibility from my understanding unless you take some pin-point traumatic surgery, as that’s all occuring in your superconscious and it outprocesses consciously after it’s done in your left dorsal lateral, already packaged and incrementalized, but with it’s compartimenalizations utterly unknown. Now, Nietzsche isn’t going to be -1 +1. That’s rubbish trash that no neurologist would ever accept after reading Nietzsche’s works and studying his implications on what parts of his brain were active. His time after his collapse, what language centers shut down first in the left temporal lobe,his right temporal lobe playing his music just fine for years and years… but he could stll access his left somewhat to grope for words… but he still had a well intact basal ganglia, a good imagination. His neuromodulators began to slpi, his ability to control his adult thoughts went, and in the end he lost his primary adult centers of personality (for him in his adult life, not like when he was a pius little boy) in the Supplementary Motor Area, and was stuck increasingly in the right temporal lobe… TELLING his sister how THEY were now happy,remebering his childhood memories and increasingly more and more childlike, but lacked the capacity to access the left hemispheric temporal lobe where conscious anger and universal thinking and putting it all together occurs, as well as the beginnings of economic thought and grammatical construction is formed. He could receive the language aspects unconsciously though your area… passed up the right hemisphere… as most diseases can’t attack cranial nerves… just like most floods can’t kit raised highways… but clearly lost his other bi-lateral regions of the mind in his last decade, the basal ganglia, and most importantly, the supplementary motor areas. But he had his music as a consolation until the near end, this I am certain of… and the historic facts attest to.

Your assumptions need to be reconsidered. I can see how you would come to that conclusion, it’s very, very natural for you to do as such, but it’s unnatural to suppose Nietzsche was doing as such, save for the most superficial of explanations. The man who contemplated the Gracian-Shropenhauer concept of Will-to-Life as Will-to-Power wouldn’t of honestly of held such a simplistic view, and I’ve seen you argue this better before. Nietzsche expressed it better, and I strongly encourage you to find a more realistic explanation of his ideas. Your butchering the man’s thought process when you dumb it down like that to your level. Step up to the plate, and think this one though a little bit deeper. My original analysis in the post above still stands. Her category still stands as absurd in this light. Nietzsche did recognize moments of happiness. Anything more dragged out was delusional or a hoax. This I would agree with, not out of ideological identity with him, but because it’s the same for him and me… but I know neurologically some can be just that… it’s a fact. And it annoys me on Mondays. Fuck Mondays.

[omar]

Hello Sauwelios,
I agree with FN’s diagnosis, but I wonder if his prescription is not simply another symptom, another instance of man looking after a center. It HAS TO SEEM as IF it isn’t, to himself, but if brutally analysed, hasn’t he just posited a new consolation?

[The_Golden_Turd]

Nietzsche’s Eternal Return was a consolation, it’s heavily influenced by Tertullian’s concept and Machiavelli’s study of the subject of the wheel of fortune… and his attack on Consolation in general signifies his understanding of Boethius (hard to miss Boethius when your researching the history of philosophy, especially catholic and theological as well as logic and music). I noticed a turning of these threads of though appear unnamed for the most part, but very easily recognized, in the maybe faked, maybe real work ‘My Sister and I’. It’s hard for me to do a cognitive diagnosis on it as it’s mostly memory based, like Ecce Homo that came before it (and both were released years later)… but I’ve gotten some done on it. I don’t think he was looking for consolations beyond trying to prevent his circumstances from occurring again in another. The ends justify the means. Didn’t work out unfortunately… he had extremely little actual influence on anything he could claim positive- the medical movement was in full swing without him- small pox would of been defeated with or without his existence… because it was a disease simple enough TO wipe out with the tools commonly available then. Hygiene was a fetish coming into it’s own, and had nothing to do with him. Science was doing just fine on it’s own, as well as the adventures of atheism. He did little more than to give consolations and become a cultural icon for the broken and the inane and immoral, convincing them that they were wronged and were actually good. To this day, they usually are not… they such at life for the most part and mope and quote Nietzsche. The people attracted to immoral lifestyles are so not because they read him and are convinced by his arguments but because they were just naturally that way- shitheads flock to the bottom, theft aspires higher. Both have a legitimate claim to Nietzsche. It’s why marriage is failing in the US… but we have no alternative that makes sense to most other than a common law status or making baby mamas out of sluts… but the rich are in relation more conservative in their religion and values. It’s ironic it’s pretty much backwards because of Nietzsche and those who followed afterwards. Even in a place like San Francisco, the caste that eventually took over is White and Gay… they don’t breed… they can’t for the most part! And it’s rare they can take a man in from the black neighborhoods of Oakland. The result is a dramatic perversion of Nietzsche’s system. Men won’t evolve under his system while being immoral this way there, even if his conditions for evolution were correct. Gay don’t produce offspring, but they effectively do everything they can to keep the poor in the dirty. They’ll give them a little art in subway stations to make them feel better, and will make all the food expensive organics so they can’t afford any. It’s all bullshit. I can’t see this consolation worked for him in the least.