Daily Daodejing, Part 2

For information of what this series is about, see the parent thread

Once all under Heaven knew beauty as “beauty”; at that moment “ugliness” was already there. Once all knew goodness as “goodness”; at that moment “not good” was already there. Thus it is that presence and absence generate each other; long and short give proportion to the other; highs and lows are a matter of relative inclination; instrumental sounds and voice tones depend on one another for harmony; and before and after result from their relative places in a sequence.

The beautiful [mei] is what induces pleasure in the human heart-and-mind [xin], and the ugly [e] is what brings aversion and disgust to it. To praise [mei] or censure [e] something is just the same as being delighted or angry with it. To regard something as good or not is just the same as approving [shi] or disapproving [fei] if it. Delight and anger have the same root, and approval and disapproval come from the same gate, thus they cannot be used with bias [pian]. These six [existence or absence, difficulty or ease, long or shot, instrumental sounds or voice tones, highs or lows, and before or after] are all terms that express what is natural [ziran] and cannot be used with bias.

The Great Learning says that, “Things have their roots and branches, affairs have their end and beginning. When you know what comes first and what comes last, then you are near the Way.” While Wang Bi was almost certainly aware of the Great Learning, the vaulted place in the Chinese literati tradition would not be attained until nearly a millennium after his death. That said, I do not think it is too much of a stretch to think he may have been deliberating over that line when he wrote his commentary. After all, the DDJ is fairly clear on its position that dividing things into ‘good’ and (by extension) ‘not good’ is a futile extension of conscious effort and it should probably be avoided all together. So, why does Wang Bi seemingly go back on this and say that these things are ‘without bias’?

I think that Xun Zi offers a synthesis to this quandary. He begins his essay, “Dispelling Obsession” with the following lines: “The thing all men should fear is that they will become obsessed by a small corner of the truth and fail to comprehend its over-all principles. If they can correct this fault, they must return to correct standards, but if they continue ot hesitate and be of two minds, then they will fall into delusion. There are not two Ways in the world, the sage is never of two minds.”* So, it becomes the task for the sage to be mindful of the root of things, that these things which appear to the small mind to be separate entities are, indeed, dependent upon each other. Keeping this in mind, we can dwell on the finer details of a thing without becoming lost in them.

Therefore the sage [sheng] tends to matters without conscious effort

That which by nature is already sufficient unto itself will only end in defeat if one applies conscious effort [wei] to it.

On ILP right now there is a thread about whether or not one can be taught to be an artist. The Daoist answer, and I think the correct answer, is that one cannot be taught to be an artist. One either has this particular ‘knack’ or they do not and education simply allows this trait to better manifest itself. So, if one is an artist, do art and it will flow from them. If they aren’t an artist, they will merely be able to make mimicries of what their teachers have considered art to be.

And practices the teaching that is no expressed in words. The myriad folk model their behavior on him, yet he does not tell them what to do. He gives them life, yet he possess them not. He acts, yet they do not depend on him.

Because such intelligence is complete unto itself, conscious effort would result in falsehood.

Confucius said that if an Emperor were able to truly possess the way, all he would need to do for his empire to be well run is sit in his throne. That is because matters have been properly delegated, so the Emperor, whose job it is to arbitrate between ministries and act as an authority in disputes, becomes redundant.

Unfortunately, the reverse is also true. A favorite pass-time of middle-management is to make themselves useful and to occasionally shake the system up according to the latest fad. Now, if the company is in dire need of a performance overhaul, clearly these plans might not be a bad idea – the way is already so lost their that drastic measures may be necessary to return it to proper alignment, but part of the ‘knack’ that one has to recognize is the ability to leave things in a state of incompletion. Since all things are in a state of becoming, the very idea of ‘completion’ is largely incompatible with Daoist thought. Realizing that complete and incomplete share the same root, it becomes the task of the sage to know when to ‘back off’ and let the system do its work. If chosen wisely, the system will set itself and keep going without further input.

He achieves success yet takes no pride in it.

Because he acts in accordance with things, success is achieved through them, and this way he takes no pride in it.

Part of recognizing one’s position in the world is to know that no one can be said to be independent. We have our roles to play in this interdependent web, but nothing we accomplish can truly be said to be ‘ours’. The painter needs miners for the minerals in his paint, chemists to mix them into dyes, likewise they need farmers for plant fiber and canvas-makers to transform the plant material into a proper medium for his expression. Even in creating a masterwork, they have merely placed the final touches on a work shared by many people.

It is just because he is not proprietary that he does not lose it.

If he supposed that success depended on himself, such success could not last long

In recognizing the contributions of others, the sage can’t be covetous because what can be said to truly be his accomplishment? Instead, he recognizes his place in the web of society and fulfills his function in accordance with his allotment. They follow their ‘knack’ and let it be given the fullest expression through the help of others while helping others realize their own ‘knack’.

In such a system, things cease to be ‘good’ and ‘not good’, but rather simply are. The only judgment comes from one’s self in finding their place. And from one’s self about one’s self, how can there be any discussion of bias?

*Burton Watson’s translation

For me, the emphasis of chapter two isn’t so much the detailing of opposites as the understanding that, unlike western concepts of being and nothingness, the appearance of one requires its antithesis. Postive and negative arise together and are mutually dependent. Neither can exist without the other. The western idea that good depends on vanquishing evil is a fallacy in Taoist thought. If there is good, there must be evil, for if one disappears, so does the other.

A person who grasps the opposites as being one, places no higher value on one or the other. To do so is to favor one at the cost of the other. Wisdom is to allow each constituant part to play out its role in any experience. If in any experience there is only black, it doesn’t mean that white doesn’t exist, (western concept) it simply means that white is absent. Both exist or neither exists.

I do agree that the presence of something requires its antithesis, but I think that it is going too far to say that value oughtn’t then be placed on it (though I do think that line of thinking represents a valid Daoist line of thought).

So, the trick becomes that, while we recognize that these things are aspects of the same thing and are, ultimately, dependent upon each other that doesn’t necessarily mean that they need to be equal, much less equivalent, to each other.

Wang Bi talks about the balance between instrumental sounds and vocal tones in music – I think this is a good example to latch onto. After all, music (as perceived by the Chinese at that time) would require both components, one demands the other. However, there are times in the music when the instruments might dominate the vocal elements and other times where the vocalist stands alone, seemingly without music.

A sage recognizes when something is appropriate and acts accordingly, that is what it means to act without conscious effort. But that needn’t bring us down the road of equivocation.

True, that which is beneficial in any experience is preferred to those things that are malovent, but it is a matter of emphasis, not denial. Unlike western concepts that are busy ‘conquering’ this and that, Taoists are not at war with the world. To put it in western terms, the good angels should win as much as possible, but conquering or destroying the devils is both futile and subject to failure. In process cosmology, nothing enjoys exclusiveness. All constituents depend on each other for existence.

I’m not sure what you mean by this; only when something is named does duality arise.

The concept of ‘value’ isn’t really in question, is it? It’s degree, and any such valuation is always conditioned. I’m not saying that this is right or wrong, but only the way things are. To the extent that we realize this, we can assess value wisely, compassionately.

I don’t recognize ‘things that are aspects of the same thing’, I only recognize that all things exist in the same way: impermanently, without inherent substantiality and dependently originated. Perhaps you can elaborate on what you mean…?

Equality is a duality, as well.

Sorry it took so long to reply.

All I meant was that in defining the category of ‘X’ we have also created a separate category of ‘not X’, when these things actually exist along a continuum. Tentative was going down the route of saying that ‘X’=‘not X’, or at least that we oughtn’t care about the distinction between ‘X’ and ‘Not X’ whereas I think that, as long as we recognize ‘X’ and ‘Not X’ as being part of the same continuity we actually can place emphasis on which end of the continuum we choose to value as well as need to. Ideally in a wise and compassionate manner.

So, when I say that ‘X’ and ‘Not X’ are aspect of the same thing, the ‘thing’ I am referring to is the continuum between those two states. Now, since this continuum exists as a facet of our (shared?) perception, like any other perception it can be considered to be impermanent. More importantly, we have to recognize that anything along that continuum is constantly in a state of change, along a variety of axes, so even our definition of ‘X’ and ‘Not X’ will change with the situation.

This makes them not just impermanent, but also empty, dependently arisen. Which changes the representation to:

X
‘not X’
Both X and ‘not X’
Neither X nor ‘not X’

In Buddhist teaching, wisdom and compassion arise from insight into emptiness.

I agree. However, I perceive ‘emptiness’ slightly differently than you do.

It is slightly more nuanced that that pithy quote, but overall Fuzhi equated the notion of ‘emptiness’ with concrete reality. So, we have the reality of the continuum between ‘X’ and ‘Not X’ which we can further subdivide into ‘X’, ‘Not X’, ‘X and not X’ and ‘neither X nor not X’.

Now, that position is clearly not a Daoist one. A Daoist take on the situation would be closer to your’s, though they did not have a developed sense of ‘emptiness’ pre-Buddhism. So, I’ll leave it for Tentative to answer how a classical Daoist might have responded to that.

Xunzian,

Thanks for setting me up. [-X I haven’t the slightest idea how a “classical Taoist” would address the issue being only a mediocre student and an even worse practicioner. :blush:

I thought I addressed at least part of this in my last response, but maybe not. To see X and not-X as fluid constituents dependent on each other for existence is the point of emphasis. It is both instruction and warning to avoid the tendency to cast either in concrete and thereby limit process. All experience and all constituents within an experience are conditional and provisional as the constant flow of interaction informs and conditions not only the interactive play, but the perspective from which such experience is viewed. It isn’t a statement of having static equivocation, but to not over-emphasize one side of the coin only to diminish the other. In part, this belongs to a discussion of the watercourse way, which we haven’t begun to approach yet. (an anti-confucian POV by the way).

I don’t know if this supports or infringes on Buddhist ‘emptiness’, but I sense we’re talking about something very similar even if the words don’t match very well. I would like to talk about ‘unprincipled knowing’, but it is too early for that.

At this early stage of discussion I would only say that the concept is to release as much of our pre-conceived notions as possible, to see both X and not-X in any experience and to deferentially allow each to play their full part in that experience. “A sage neither goes out to meet them or to see them off”.

Where do ugliness and the want of skill come from? They come from knowing what beauty and skill is. If we did not know what beauty and skill were, would we still have ugliness and the want of skill?

We make our own duality, our own opposites, our own good and evil.
Where does evil come from?
It comes from knowing good.

It is by judging the one that the other arises. All things are experienced in relation to one another, whether harmonious or discordant, first or last, above or below, long or short.

The question is, whether it is beneficial for us to know all things, which seems to be the question that Lao-zi is asking.

The sage, on the other hand, does not judge and therefore does not come into temptation. His example becomes his instruction, since words “puff up” and make people think they are better, whilst all the time they are snares unwittingly laid out by those who have to return along that path.

It is better to remain meek and lowly than to fool oneself with delusions of grandeur.

Ownership is an illusion in the face of time, since things will come and go separate from our coming and going. If we coincidently have pleasure, we should not see it as a reward or an achievement, it is just the passing chance that we either acknowledge or ignore.

This is the Way and its origins are hidden from us.

Shalom

It would appear that we are saying the same thing, just using different words. Being human, (most of us) we cannot escape duality, but we can see it for what it is and isn’t. What is knowing is always conditional and while we gather knowing over time, it is the dangerous tendency to allow such knowing to become concretized and fixed that we must keep in awareness. It is our preconceived ideas that can either direct or distort experience.

Xunzian, I am simply not linear. #-o

Would you please explain to me how to link one thread to another? What happens is that I read one, take your link back and then respond in the older thread to what I read in the newer one, because it comes up again. I suppose this gets me nowhere which, for a Buddhist, works quite satisfactorily, lol.

What occurs to me is that in this discussion, all we can ever have is ‘a small corner of the truth’. That’s okay, the thinking mind must focus on what it’s addressing at each point in time, disregarding all else until it can move along to the next topic.

What leapt out at me in the Xun Zi quote were the verbs. “Correct” this fault, “return” to standards. I figure that this is because I’m trained to practice, to do the ‘way’ (I call it ‘path’) rather than to think it. Not that the words aren’t important or useful, but they’ve become less so over time. The ‘seeking’ activity calms. So, and please excuse this if it comes across as vague, the correcting and returning are not specific actions at some point in time as the words (or as reading the words now) might seem to imply, they are the path. The sage (as model for us) is never of two minds, and never of one mind; the sage is only mindful. This is the way to ‘dwell on the finer details of a thing without becoming lost’.

If only reading this and thinking of how it makes sense would make it so, lol. But one of the great paradoxes: the years of effort it takes before the effort begins to dissolve.

It’s my sense that one is an artist if one can open to the flow of creating, because that’s the art. What’s made, the product, is secondary. What it mimics or doesn’t mimic is a construct. The teacher lives on in the student, to the extent that the teacher has opened a closed door within the student. The product that’s created isn’t meaningless, of course, because those who touch it with their senses will also engage in that flow. In this sense, there’s no separation between the process and what’s produced. The thing itself is our tangible evidence (which points to ‘form is emptiness, emptiness is form’), but it’s incidental to the flow, which is how what I’d call ‘art’ arises. Creation and sensory perception are how we engage with it. It’s easier to label the product ‘good’ or ‘bad’ than it is to label the process so. Again: "The sage is never of two minds, and never of one mind; the sage is only mindful. This is the way to ‘dwell on the finer details of a thing without becoming lost’."

This statement brought to mind something I read by the Dalai Lama which has stayed with me. He noted that if you learn to pay very close attention, you’ll find at the tail end of any pleasurable feeling a brief instant of sadness. I think the idea of ownership and its emotional baggage leads us to feel sad when we realize we couldn’t hang onto the pleasure. A western thinker would perhaps think that we should honor the sadness, because it allows us the pleasure. The Buddha taught that neither should be held onto.

In that quote, Xun Zi is referencing a quote from the Analects I used as a sig for a while. This is from memory, so forgive me if it is not entirely perfect, but, “Confucius would not take on anyone as a student who, after having shown them one corner, could not bring back the other three.” The whole idea is, as you say, all we can ever have is a single corner of the truth; however, based on that limited understanding of the truth we should be able to reconstruct a fair approximation of the whole, despite our ignorance. However, what Xun Zi saw (and I think this holds true today) is that many people manage to hold onto that single corner of the truth that they have and mistake it for the entire square.

This is clearly an area where Buddhism/Daoism and Confucianism disagree, since Buddhism/Daoism would be very reluctant to postulate the other three corners, much less deal with them . . . however, I think the notion of not mistaking the smallest corner of a concept for its totality is an idea that goes across the traditions.

I agree. I (now, not when I chose my avatar name) think that Xun Zi placed too great an emphasis on ritual (li). However, I do think that there is a difference that need to be acknowledged which is the Confucian (as well as Buddhist, at least in Korean Zen) notion of the unity of thought/understanding and action. So, from this perspective, the idea of ‘thinking’ and ‘practicing’ is non-distinct – after all, if one truly understands the Way, they cannot help but act on that understanding; therefore, a failure to act implies that the understanding is imperfect of that they didn’t really think about the way at all.

Now, from a more Daoist/Buddhist perspective (as opposed to a Neo-Confucian/Buddhist perspective), I think that the ‘two minds’ does collapse into merely being mindful. After all, if one is truly practicing ‘Just X’ (which my girlfriend is always harping about when I forget something and she says to be mindful like the Buddha. “Just Cook! Then you won’t burn the food! Be mindful like the Buddha and you won’t burn the food!”) one can’t be of two minds about something if they are purely living in the now.

To use the parlance of our times, “Word, yo.”

Agreed, but therein we see that it is the process is what is paramount and the product is secondary. The difference between Buddhism and Daoism here is articulated in the Zhuangzi when a wheelmaker talks about his craft. He makes it explicitly clear in the passage (I’ll look it up on Monday – hopefully I can find it, I can only talk of the Zhuangzi in the most vague of ways because I haven’t really spent time studying it, I’ve merely read it a few times) that the artisan and his product is a relationship that is inalienable and intransferable. The wheelwright talks about how he can’t pass this ability onto his children simply because it isn’t knowledge-based nor is it experience-based. He simply ‘knows’ how to do it because he has a ‘knack’ that is due to his proximity to the Dao/his natural allotment.

Transience. Very pertinent to the present discussion. . .

Ingenium and Xunz,

Wonderful! Many times I have said that one mind - two mind, no-mind is the subtle but qualitative difference between being, and being as. No one has ever acknowledged, agreed, disagreed, or asked me what the hell I was talking about. Being in perpetual reflection is to be caught up in perpetual abstraction and attempting to substitute the external "I"for the internal “me” Is there anything so simple to understand that is so difficult to practice?I have accepted that I will always be a poor practicioner, but it it gives me a goal, which is to have no goals… :wink:

Creativity. It happens when we let go. It happens all too rarely for me. I enjoy wood working. I particularly like standing at a lathe and turning bowls. Why? Damned if I know, but on rare occasions, the whole universe exists in a spinning piece of wood. There are all sorts of tools, intricate procedures, necessary skills, a knowledge of wood general and specific, and none of these things are creative. I am quite capable of turning technically acceptable pieces (most of them are), but when I let go and simply do, then the dance begins and that spinning piece of wood and I tease from each other the best of our potential. These pieces become alive and they are not just a chunk of wood masquerading as a bowl, but wood expressing bowl-ness. The artifact is merely proof of the process, and it is the no-mind process is the important part.

I’ve been pondering this one, but I am still unclear on the distinction. I think I’m close, but help me out.

Xunzian,

I understand the difficulty. :laughing: It only took me about four or five years to ‘get it’. ( I’m very slow on the uptake). Lets try this. We have a goal. In this case, the goal is to have no goal. errr, what??? Yup. the goal is to have no goal. Then comes methodology. There are many methods touted and most of them work to some degree. Meditation, disciplined practice of an art, Yogic exercise, Tai Chi, the list goes on and on… but all are methods of stilling the mind. Through disciplined practice of a methodology, one can ‘learn’ to transcend duality. Then one forgets about the method and simply practices. And here is the hard part. One forgets what has been forgotten.

One stops thinking about thinking. It is emptying out, “I” disappears, and there is nothing left but awareness doing.

Pretty fuzzy, huh?