Determinism

[quote=“Urwrongx1000”]
How “fair” is it to the gazelle taken down by lions,
While the rest of the herd runs away, and does not turn to help?
Life is “not fair!” the young children scream.

And because it is not fair, you have the brazen gall to “make it so”.
But you have no understanding of Nature, do you?

Peacegirl: Yes I do. Animals must kill to survive.

Unwrong: Just like Ecmandu here, and peacegirl, your desire to
“Change the world” will amount to nothing.

Peacegirl: Please don’t compare this discovery to anyone else’s ideas.

Unwrong: Because you have no understanding of Nature.

Peacegirl: Wrong.

Unwrong: Your “Goodness”, your morality, will not fill the stomach of the Lions.

Peacegirl: You haven’t tried to hear me at all. Self-preservation is the first law of nature.

Unwrong: You cannot stop their Instinct to Hunt. Not even after they are domesticated/emasculated into House Cats…

Peacegirl: That may be true, but your mistake is comparing us to house cats. :frowning:

I don’t know what your definition of peaceful is, but it certainly doesn’t leave out a defense of your position when your opponent has created a false picture of who you are and what you’re bringing to the table.

Your irrational idealization of “peace and love”, and to inflict it onto others, is identical to Ecmandu’s obsession. Two minds with the same ideal/goal, but entirely different perspectives, approaching that same ideal from different angles. It appears to me, yet another perspective, that both of your are deluded, and perhaps, not psychologically well or healthy. Not only this, but such psychoses are common on ILP itself, in regards to Christianity, Abrahamism, and Religion. Even recent posts by Felix Da Cat and Bob indicate as such, this obsession with ‘Love’ without demonstrating any practical or pragmatic meaning as to what that is.

Ecmandu is open about his psychosis and mental illness. His position is simply more honest than yours.

I believe that those obsessed with “Peace and Love” are so, because peace and love was deprived from them, usually violently, during their formative years. I suspect the same of you. You deny it, but that does not account for your obsession. So be it.

Oh, wait, peacegirl aren’t you selling a book about all of this? Grifting would explain the obsession too.

EDIT Yep, it’s in your signature… now I understand, thank you.

How clever, to claim to fight for “peace and love”, when truth is, you merely profit off others’ obsessions.

This is insane! Here you are attacking me because people have to pay $4.99 for a 600 page book which took me years to compile? You have a veil over your eyes! :frowning:

What can I say? I’m a philosopher. My nose (not the hook kind) sniffs these things out. Worry naught, I leave you to your grift. Continue on!

Calling yourself a philosopher does not mean your thoughts and ideas are better. It’s as simple as that!

Brains & Minds
Consciousness, Freewill and Language
Michael Langford talks about the language we use to talk about the mind and brain.

On the contrary, until we can grasp the ontological – teleological? – relationship between the laws of matter, the human brain and human intention any “violence” that is done can never be pinned down as either originating in human autonomy or in the mere psychological illusion of human autonomy originating in the manner in which the “human condition” itself fits into what may or may not be an ontological – teleological? – reality.

If they could never have not murdered someone, what difference does it make if we could never have not called it either mad or bad?How would insane and evil not be interchangeable in the only possible reality in the only possible world?

And yet, over and again, since this in and of itself is often never brought up in regard to examples like this I can only assume – click – that I am the one failing to “get” their point.

Here, I am bascially with Barbara:

Again: if there is no human liberty then anything we do “for all practical purposes” in regard to distinctions made between hospitals and prisons, intentions and neurological/chemical activity is six of one half a dozen of the other.

Again: if there is no human liberty then anything we do “for all practical purposes” in regard to distinctions made between hospitals and prisons, intentions and neurological/chemical activity is six of one half a dozen of the other.

Peacegirl: A murder due to a tumor (without obvious intent) versus intent to murder due to revenge may show similar neurological activity but in each case you cannot say neurological activity caused the behavior in question. Even so, this does not mean there was autonomy (or free will) anywhere to be found.

Brains & Minds
Consciousness, Freewill and Language
Michael Langford talks about the language we use to talk about the mind and brain.

On the other hand, in regard to determinism [and all of the other Really Big Questions] noting this hardly makes either “the gap” or “Rummy’s Rule” go away. We’re still stuck with all of the imponderables in regard to grasping whether this complexity “somehow” results in an awareness of things like “death” that are truly being proposed to others of our own volition.

Self-awareness does not of necessity amount to a capacity to opt to be aware of something else instead.

Like the old and the new kind of language can’t be six of one, half dozen of the other to nature. If it’s “being” and not being, then every discussion about it is always back to square one. Instead, for me, it’s the arguments of those who suggest it is “being” that are most enigmatic.

We just have no way at present to pin down what it means ontologically to connect the dots between reflective thought and physical laws being broken. Other then – click – in the arguments we dispense here.

So, in the absence of actual ontological confirmation we simply make the assumption that in noting something like this…

…the evolution of lifeless matter “somehow” created a neurological and chemical capacity “in our brains” to “transcend” the mindless laws of matter applicable only to lifeless matter. It just happened and one day we will have the capacity to freely figure out how.

As for “why?”, get takes us in the teleological realm generally attributed to a Creator of some sort. So that, it would seem, the far more profound mystery would be a No God universe in which “somehow” nature itself accomplished this.

Those were the days!!

If you haven’t noticed, humans are not mindless matter, and don’t necessarily come from mindless matter, which is mere speculation. You are equating lifeless matter to live matter as if we evolved from stones? :-k This doesn’t mean our choices are not determined, or that there is any room for free will. If you understood this discovery at all, you would know this. There is no evidence for free will whatsoever. It also doesn’t mean that one day we will have the capacity to “freely” figure it all out, although we still can “unfreely” figure it all out (which has already been done; we have no free will and it is impossible to live outside the laws of our nature). What is most important here is that by understanding that we have no free will, we can create the kind of world we all want by veering in a new direction.

I have found a new book to peruse on the subject: amazon.com/Free-Determinism … 0915144778

Free Will and Determinism: A Dialogue by Clifford Williams

What’s interesting is that all the chapters revolve around discussions by three characters:

1] Frederick the “free-willist”
2] Daniel the “determinist”
3] Carolyn the “compatibilist”

Let’s see who nature “compels”, compels, “compels” me to believe “won”, won, "won".

Brains & Minds
Consciousness, Freewill and Language
Michael Langford talks about the language we use to talk about the mind and brain.

And how has this changed? My assumptions, my conclusions…your assumptions, your conclusions. On and on and on we go here exchanging them in what certainly seems to be a futile effort to “choose” words in order to form arguments that are said to be closer to the objective truth. Mine may be, yours may be. And then if not all the way to the grave.

Or, sure, let’s call them “biases”…

Why should hedonism be any different? There are clearly psychological tendencies embodied here in all of us. Some revolving around genes more or less than around memes. Some clearly more or less dangerous to others. After all, we are not all sociopaths in this regard. But we still have no set of assumptions that bring us to the definitive conclusion that we have any real capacity to opt not to be a sociopath. Any more than we can know for certain that how we react to sociopaths is as a result of carefully weighing the pros and the cons.

All I do here is to suggest that, given free will, there does not appear to be a philosophical argument that enables to pin down whether one either ought or ought not to be a sociopathic hedonist. Instead, that’s all buried deeply – ineffably – in dasein.

On the other hand, if Hobbes was never able not to include these observations…?

You tell me. Someone feels “uneasy” about them. Another does not. Which “account” appeals more to you? Again, what on earth does it mean to demand anything of any account here when we can never be certain if that “demand” is not in turn but a psychological illusion “somehow” sprung on us by nature when mindless matter evolved into what has got to be the most mysterious matter of all – the human brain.

Perhaps only the matter that may or may not be God is further out of reach. Assuming we have the capacity to pin that down of our own free will.

On the other hand, if Hobbes was never able not to include these observations…?

Peacegirl: Neurological theory of Intellectual causation versus psychological hedonism may be based on different motives nevertheless all behavior is driven by our beliefs and what gives us satisfaction. Some people get great satisfaction in being a hedonist; others in altruism. Actions are buried in dasein. No argument here.

Iambiguous: You tell me. Someone feels “uneasy” about them. Another does not. Which “account” appeals more to you? Again, what on earth does it mean to demand anything of any account here when we can never be certain if that “demand” is not in turn but a psychological illusion “somehow” sprung on us by nature when mindless matter evolved into what has got to be the most mysterious matter of all – the human brain.

Peacegirl: Free will is most certainly an illusion but that does not mean we can’t demand anything of any account which is also not of our own free will. We don’t stop thinking just because will is not free. And it certainly doesn’t mean that mindless dead matter evolved into mindful matter as you speculate.

Iambiguous: Perhaps only the matter that may or may not be God is further out of reach. Assuming we have the capacity to pin that down of our own free will.

Peacegirl: We cannot pin anything down of our own free will, very true, but that does not mean we can do anything against our will.

From Free Will and Determinism: A Dialogue by Clifford Williams.

[b]Frederick [Mr. Free Will]: Can you explain why in your sense a person can be both free and determined?

Carolyn [Ms. Compatibilist]: Yes. A person can be free and determined because what he does can be caused by something that goes on inside him even though he is not forced by some circumstances outside of him to act as he does. If he is not forced by circumstances outside of himself to act as he does, then he acts freely. Yet his action could nonetheless be caused by something inside him, such as an unconscious motive or a brain state.

Frederick: …a person could have freedom in your sense even though he had no control over anything he does. Let me explain. If everything a person does is caused by unconscious motives, as you say, then he would have no control over anything that he does. Unknown to him, he would be buffeted about by the workings of his unconscious mind. Yet such a person would have freedom in your sense of freedom because no external circumstances would prevent him from doing what he consciously wants to do. That means your conception of freedom is a sham — a person who has freedom in your sense does not have control over what he does.[/b]

Yep, that is basically my own reaction to compatibilism. We have “conceptual”/“theoretical” freedom, but, for all practical purposes, we have no control over what we do because “internal” and “external” are seamlessly intertwined re the laws of matter.

As Frederick notes…

“You can call that freedom if you want to, but it is a psuedofreedom.”

And that, in my view, is often where the compatibilists go: letting it all revolve around what you call something, name something, define something. As though the inner “I” here was not the equivalent of all that is out in the world able to compel you to “choose” this instead of that.

Here I always come back to “I” in our dreams. The “freedom” we are convinced we have all the way up to the point when we wake up. The waking “I” no less a manifestation of the laws of matter. Only, far, far, far more inexplicably.

Not being forced by external circumstances does not mean we have free will. This is just another semantic shift to make it appear that a change of definition determines reality. The waking “I” is no less a manifestation of the laws of matter as the “I” in our dreams. The only difference is that dreams don’t “normally” get reenacted in real life, so there’s no danger to anyone. But the “I” in waking life often manifests in behavior that can hurt someone. You keep missing one important point, and that is that MAN IS NOT CAUSED OR COMPELLED TO DO TO ANOTHER WHAT HE MAKES UP HIS MIND NOT TO DO — BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE HIS WILL FREE. Although it is a mathematical law that nothing can compel man to do to another what he makes up his mind not to do — this is an extremely crucial point — he is nevertheless under a compulsion during every moment of his existence to do everything he does. This reveals that man has absolute control over the former but absolutely none over the latter because he must constantly move in the direction of greater satisfaction.

How about this rendition of determinism…

nytimes.com/2022/01/26/opin … ation.html

[b]"For these reasons, I’ve sat out many of the debates about the simulation hypothesis that have been bubbling through tech communities since the early 2000s, when Nick Bostrom, a philosopher at Oxford, floated the idea in a widely cited essay.

"But a brain-bending new book by the philosopher David Chalmers — “Reality+: Virtual Worlds and the Problems of Philosophy” — has turned me into a hard-core simulationist.

"After reading and talking to Chalmers, I’ve come to believe that the coming world of virtual reality might one day be regarded as every bit as real as real reality. If that happens, our current reality will instantly be cast into doubt; after all, if we could invent meaningful virtual worlds, isn’t it plausible that some other civilization somewhere else in the universe might have done so, too? Yet if that’s possible, how could we know that we’re not already in its simulation?

"The conclusion seems inescapable: We may not be able to prove that we are in a simulation, but at the very least, it will be a possibility that we can’t rule out. But it could be more than that. Chalmers argues that if we’re in a simulation, there’d be no reason to think it’s the only simulation; in the same way that lots of different computers today are running Microsoft Excel, lots of different machines might be running an instance of the simulation. If that was the case, simulated worlds would vastly outnumber non-sim worlds — meaning that, just as a matter of statistics, it would be not just possible that our world is one of the many simulations but likely. Chalmers writes that “the chance we are sims is at least 25 percent or so.

"Chalmers is a professor of philosophy at New York University, and he has spent much of his career thinking about the mystery of consciousness. He is best known for coining the phrase “the hard problem of consciousness,” which, roughly, is a description of the difficulty of explaining why a certain experience feels like that experience to the being experiencing it. (Don’t worry if this hurts your head; it’s not called the hard problem for nothing.)

"Chalmers says that he began thinking deeply about the nature of simulated reality after using V.R. headsets like Oculus Quest 2 and realizing that the technology is already good enough to create situations that feel viscerally real.

"Virtual reality is now advancing so quickly that it seems quite reasonable to guess that the world inside V.R. could one day be indistinguishable from the world outside it. Chalmers says this could happen within a century; I wouldn’t be surprised if we passed that mark within a few decades.

“Whenever it happens, the development of realistic V.R. will be earthshaking, for reasons both practical and profound. The practical ones are obvious: If people can easily flit between the physical world and virtual ones that feel exactly like the physical world, which one should we regard as real?”[/b]

So, if we are in some extraterrestrial alien’s “sim world”, how would that be the same or different from hard determinism as the embodiment of nature itself?

Well, in part, I suppose, it would depend on whether this alien civilization was no less the embodiment of the laws of matter. Nature “programed” them to “program” us. And then going back to how it all fits into the ontological – teleological? – understanding of existence itself.

Why You Don’t Have Free Will

youtu.be/odTylzoa20E