Exactly! It’s not linear. This is why this debate will never end, because it’s defined as the past causing…which is inaccurate. I’m so sorry people are having a hard time, but the truth is the truth is the truth. It is a combination of our present evaluation based on what has happened in our life yesterday, a year ago, many years ago, or a moment ago. But this contemplation takes place in the present.
You found a minor and an irrelevant imperfection in their definition. Someone else would have understood what they are saying in spite of it. What about Wikipedia? What do they say? They say “The past is the set of all events that occurred before a given point in time”. Similar to mine. I say “The past is the sum of everything that existed.” When I want to be extra explicit, I say “The past is the sum of everything that existed prior to the present moment”, even though “prior to the present moment” is kind of redundant ( the term “existed” already conveys it. ) An alternative is “The sum of all existence prior to the present moment.”
Right, as I have pointed out, the PAST doesn’t CAUSE squat! To say the past causes the future is to say something to the effect of “previous elapsed time causes future time to occur.” It is saying something like 0742 caused 1046 to occur. NONSENSE!
So then it is rephrased to be “past actions cause future actions” which I’ve already shown to be BS, because eating breakfast in the past did not cause my mail to be delivered in the future.
Then it is, “well, they have to be physically connected…” LOL What a load of BS!
It has nothing to do with “events”, the past is previously elapsed time! You know what time is, right???
Not connected, necessarily, or, necessarily connected are obvious misnomer primal faciae. The more correct proposition is that among various sequential distribution, the appearently more significant relative to the next appearent sign, define a complex set of inter-related structural symbols, which are associated , as ‘phenomenally connected’. There are never direct connections , only an approach to fusing in an absolute conceivable set limit.
I’ve done a lot.
Urwrongx1000 and Satyr are now both self declared socialists, I’ve gotten every poster on this thread to take a position on the relation between fatalism and determinism, I’ve gotten a pledge from iambiguos to stop shit posting, I’ve not gotten in the way of Motor Daddy pointing out a serious lack of rigour, I’ve narrowed down the genealogy of “free will,” correctly attaching it to moralism.
I’m not always present on this forum, but when I am, I get shit done.
I think I already did. But I’ll do it anyways. I can be very technical, but since that would take my time, I’ll stick to less technical language.
“The past causes the future” basically means that the universe unfolds as if there is a supernatural being, God, determining what exists at every point in time by looking at everything that existed in the past and then feeding that as an input to a mathematical function of some sort. I assume you know what a mathematical function is. It’s a relation between two variables A and B where every value of A is associated / paired with exactly one value of B. In this case, variable B would be the state of the universe at the present moment that the God is trying to determine and variable A would be the set of everything that existed prior to the present moment. An additional condition might be necessary, if we want to be extra correct, and that is that the mathematical function must not produce the same output for each input; in other words, there must be at least one input that produces a different output. This is because, normally, we can’t say that A causes B if changing A does not change B. But I believe this condition can be left out because it’s not too important.
You can also say that “The past causes the future” means that the universe is such that, if we knew everything about the past, and if knew the laws that govern the universe, that we could predict, every single time, by applying those laws to what was in the past, the state of the universe at any arbitrary point in the future.
So you have decided to pointlessly argue definitions. Okay, have fun.
At least somebody gets it!!! [-o<
This “God” thing…is it like Bigfoot? Let me get this straight. Bigfoot is determining what exists at every point in time by looking at everything he created in the past, and then he does math?
Which “God” are you referring to, or is it the sum of all Gods? Is the Sun God determining Earth’s existence?
Again, your terms are wishy washy! What is this “God” thing you speak of? Is that the name of the imaginary friend that has your back?
So now defining terms is pointless. Got it! How convenient that when your BS is questioned it is suddenly pointless to explain clearly what you mean by your terms in use.
Past and future are referenced on a TIMELINE from “NOW”, which is a point in time. Nothing happens “now”, events occur over a duration of time, which is a duration of time, such as 12:00-1:00 PM. That is a duration of time of 1 hour. If you are traveling at 60 MPH you travel 60 miles of distance in 1 hour of time. If the time is “now” and the speedometer reads 60 MPH you travel 0 distance. Duh? You only travel a distance greater than zero when the duration of time is greater than zero.
When ANY distance is traveled over a duration of time the start of travel was in the past. The start of travel did not CAUSE the distance and time of travel to occur! What you are claiming is something to the effect of “Starting to travel in the past caused me to finish traveling.” ABSURD! What CAUSED you to travel was the air/fuel mixture burning in the cylinders over a duration of time, which indirectly FORCED the crankshaft to rotate and the wheels to turn. “Starting to travel in the past” didn’t CAUSE squat! The start was a POINT IN TIME, which can’t cause anything to happen because it is a zero duration of time. Nothing is caused in zero time.
That “free will” is correctly attached to moralism is the reason people gravitate to the belief in free will, for without it, we can’t judge that the person who made a “morally wrong” choice could have done otherwise, which is what gives us the justification to punish. It’s called just desert. Retaliation. Payback. Vengeance. Justice served. Without freedom of the will, how can morality even enter the picture since it would mean that what has been done was beyond our control. That disturbs many, for how can the penal system work if what a person did could not not have been done? 
You are confused. There is not thing called time, time is a MEASURE of change. It has no depth, it has no ecosystem, it has no ability to host anything in itself. The past is also a qualifier of change as is the present but it is assumed it has depth and an ecosystem and is a vessel for life. If I push a rock it can roll for days. The action of me pushing the rock is assumed to have happened when, by the commonly accepted measure of change in the form of time, we moved sufficiently away from where it happened on the same measure of change. You could have a condition where nothing changes and an action of something keeps repeating identically whilst its surrounding environment stays identical but the time as OUR measure of change would still elapse.
It’s no surprise that religion is where free will is a concept. Because as you have explained, if not for free will then it must have been GOD that caused bad things to happen, and we can’t have that now can we? After all, God is GREAT, and good, and loving and caring. Certainly he couldn’t have caused bad things to happen. Rolls eyes.
Like when a fire destroys a village, but the dog is spared. Thank God for saving the dog’s life, eh? Thank God for all the good things, and damn that rascally Devil for being responsible for all the evil things that occur. God can’t be all places at all times, can he? He certainly does work in mysterious ways, just like Bigfoot. But don’t you worry, if you choose to do something evil under your own free will, Jesus will forgive you, because he loves you. That’s why he prepaid for your sins. It’s just that mankind needs to put you in prison, and so many people meet Jesus in prison…
That’s how mentally ill society is…
You said: “The universe IS such that if we knew everything about the past, and if we knew the laws that govern the universe, that we could predict, every single time, by applying those laws to what was in the past, the state of the universe at any arbitrary point in the future.” First of all, that cannot be done accurately, so it’s just a thought experiment. How in the world can we predict the state of the universe in the future at an arbitrary point in time, when it’s impossible for this feat to be accomplished. We can use people’s individual behavior to make predictions about their future behavior since that can be a pretty good predictor. But why this discussion is important is not about predicting after a murder takes place. It is about preventing those behaviors that lead to what none of us want. Secondly, what you wrote does nothing to prove that the past actually exists in real time. We know the past was at one time the present. Now it is but a memory that we save through pictures, books, oral commentary, etc. Thirdly, making this type of prediction that is utterly impossible, is not necessary in order to understand how to use determinism (not the definition you are using, which is causing confusion) to create the kind of world that increases our responsibility.
Fatalism is also usually framed within a religious conception, and determinism is an absurdity as you point out. So let’s not get ahead of ourselves.
Why free will? Nobody has answered this.
We are a mentally ill society, unfortunately.
[i]Decline and Fall of All Evil
p. 38 When Jesus Christ told the rabbis that
God commanded man to turn the other cheek, they threw him out
because the Bible told them that God said — “An eye for an eye and
a tooth for a tooth.” When his enemies nailed him to the cross he
was heard to say — “They know not what they do.” “Turn the other
cheek” he said. Because Christ exemplified in his behavior the
principle of forgiveness, and because he saw such suffering in the
world, he drew to himself those who needed help, and there were
many. However, the legacy he left for Christianity was never
reconciled. How was it possible to turn the other cheek in a world of
such evil? Why was the mind of man so confused and in spite of
every possible criticism how was religion able to convince the world to
be patient and have faith? Where did these theologians receive their
inspiration since there was no way science could reconcile good and
evil with a God that caused everything. They solved this problem in
a very simple manner by dividing good and evil in half and God was
only responsible for the first. Then they reasoned that God endowed
man with freedom of the will to choose good over evil. To
theologians, God is the creator of all goodness and since man does
many things considered evil they were given no choice but to endow
him with freedom of the will so that God could be absolved of all
responsibility for evil, which was assigned to Satan. This is also the
reason why religion is so hostile towards any person who speaks
against free will. Is it any wonder that Christ and Spinoza plus
innumerable others pulled away from the synagogue? Is it any wonder
Spinoza became a heretic and was excommunicated? According to
the thinkers of that time how could any intelligent person believe in
Satan? Religion has never been able to reconcile the forces of good
and evil with a caring and loving God, therefore Satan was destined
to be born as the opposite of all good in the world.[/i]
And, as if to prove my point, a Christian defense of a position.
Why free will?
Thank you for that explanation. I think it may make things clearer for those who want to understand. If they don’t want to understand because they are too attached to the definition of determinism that says the past causes the present, all bets are off. Going from A to B takes time, and it’s time that is always traveled in the present. As you correctly said, the past didn’t CAUSE squat!
Because it gets God off the hook.