how would you know that.
Best post ever.
Why would God do that?
I think Dan is on to something here. I myself asked this question when I was a mere child. If god created us, who created god? another god that’s greater than him? Than another god created that god and on and on?
Well, first of all, why would God need to be created?
well, why would we need to be created? Doesn’t the universe run well enough without an ultimate being?
to answer your question, would be to state the usual, no effect is causeless. God created us, who created god? was he a causeless effect?
it feels… logical for god to also need a creator in the universe we live in, if you assign a creation to our existence.
Come on, basic logic here. Something as complex as God needs an even more complex designer; ergo, there is Super-God that made God. 
scythekain
Well, The Universe is really just a set, so far as I can tell. All the things in it (including us) come about because of a previous cause, exist for a little while, then cease to be again. The whole point of putting God into the picture is that you need something at the beginning that [i]does not require [/i] something else to create it. Something eternal, in other words.
Yes, if the statement is “Everything needs a cause” then God would need a cause if we wanted to be consistant. But if the statement is only "Everything we see, " or “everything around us” or even “everything in nature”, then I think the argument still works quite well.
Here lies another subtlety. God is not an 'effect', He is a thing. An effect is a state of affairs, and that's what causes bring about- states of affairs. My parents having sex brings about the effect of my birth. If theists asserted that there was an event of God's beginning to exist, and that that event didn't have a cause, that would be truly bizarre. The idea here is that there is no such event as "God's beginning to exist"- and yet nevertheless He does exist. The argument is that there has to be at least one such thing- something that exists without their being such an event as the beginning of it's existence- in order for causation to not be an infinite regression.
Because we know that humans are not self-created, there must be something that created them. We can go back as far as we want, but eventually we will have to arrive at something that is either (1) eternal or (2) self-created. Whatever that is, let’s call it “God” since that’s what the Christians, Jews, and Muslims (And whoever else that believes in some kind of “God”) will argue.
“In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God” - John 1:1.
or if you will…
"The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The named is the mother of ten thousand things. - Tao Te Ching
A
yeah it feels logical because in this universe that god created, there is a thing called cause and effect and time. the nature of time is such that every single cause has an effect.
whatever created the universe also created time, right? and so therefore also created the entire concept of cause and effect right?
so before the concept of cause and effect existed, you cant say that every single effect has a cause because that might not be the way that the rules work when time isnt a factor.
saying that god requires a creator just like the universe does is NOT an unavoidable paradox because we dont know that things that exist without time require creators, we only know that things existing in our universe, with time, do. saying that our rules neccesarily apply to the thing that created all our rules is like saying that i cant make a video game where there isnt any gravity. im pretty sure if i tried really hard, i could do that.
im gonna quote something from wittgenstein that we can only learn by reading philosophy: things we cant understand, we should pass, fast like gas out our ass. translation by future man
Eternal is not a being for it is either a place or a thing. God is a being and beings must be created by something super intelligent. Next question you may say what created this super intelligent thing, this may be the eternal thing that existed?
Another debate is cannot people be wrong and living in a lie with this concept of a god, look at the life of decartes and gallieo, they have proven many things that religious leaders hold to be true was actually false. Was it not man, the thinking being created the conception or idea of god in the first place thus alienated everybody. We cannot believe whatever great teachings or the bible says, even if it is true, until one, and only one, the individual, has explores and proves to himself that it is true.
Answer: no.
Answer: I don’t. Nobody does.Nobody is in the position to know.We are helplessly limited beings. There is an exit, however.There is hope-we are not mere worms.
But to assume that God created himself would mean to imagine a surrealist creation, not a creation of something out of nothiing, but of the same thing out of itself…Doesn’t it imply the pre-existence of God?God which creates himself again after existing for about an eternity or somethiing…What a delirium of logic. 
why would you claim something if you do not have knowledge of it. Then you are just playing the guessing game.
And since you say that god did not created himself, then, are you claiming that there is another higher authority that created God?
Not really. It’s an infinite regression. The only way to get past it is to assume and ending. i then chose to call that primordial origin “God”. i never said that this was the same as the orthodox Christian concept of “God”.
Think of it as a modified ontological argument.
so, you have a time machine and can go back to the point before cause and effect existed? The big bang is considered the ultimate first cause of the universe… What caused it? A previous big crunch. The universe is like a yo-yo. It expands, then contracts, into a giant super blackhole. When all that dead energy is compressed into the super blackhole, it’s released back out into the universe as another big bang.
well certainly… space is infinite, and perhaps were thinking about God in the wrong way. Perhaps God is space?
I think sometimes even if we don’t do it directly we anthropromorphize god. It’s much more likely that god is nothing but the quantum energy that drives the yo-yo of the universe.
Think about this from another angle… you, yourself stated that god existed before cause and effect and created the system. That means that he can’t exist within the system of cause and effect, he’s an outsider looking upon us like rats in the maze trying to find the way to the cheese.
Not to rattle too many cages all at once, but perhaps, when christ spoke of “make your body a temple to god”, what he meant literally is that the quantum energy of god exists within us all.
But, that would be looking way to far into what he’s saying, especially when much of what he says is so grounded into judaistic history. (which is a anthropromorphized god.)
Right. Which means god wouldn’t be able to judge our actions. he’s outside the system of cause and effect.
I think I would argue for god being a quantum web that strings the universe together… is that a thing? yes and no.
I also think we are not the only intelligent life in the universe… as one intelligent thinker said before me, “it’s an awful big waste of space”. If you consider god to have creative energy, and you consider the size of the universe, it’d be contradictory to think he only used his creative energy on one planet.
Let’s consider something… How important is the moon to our survival? It’s generally agreed upon that when the Earth started it’s development, it was violent and chaotic. Then the Moon struck the earth, combining the materials of the moon and the earth together, and effecting the magnetic core of the earth to calm down and gave rise to the seas… without the moon life on Earth wouldn’t exist.
Was it just random chance that a small planetoid collided with earth and became the life giving force that it is? Was it just random chance that the moon eclipses the sun nearly perfectly?
Let’s consider our purpose (which I may start a thread on). I think one of our purposes here is to overcome entropy. I think the greatest humans, were able to overcome the drive of mediocrity and do great and strident things.
so does god need a cause? it depends on your definition.
Hi scythekain,
The big crunch was once postulated, but it is now thought that because of the expansive energy of space (dark energy) that the universe will continue expanding ad infinitum. In fact, it has been suggested that the force that is expanding the vacuum will increase, eventually becoming so great as to rip apart all matter in the universe.
The great thing about that kind of science is that it’s all postulum, in that until it happens no one knows.
“It feels logical” can often contradict a vast, missunderstood fact.
And at what time did he create time? And what caused him to create “cause-and-effect”? And why didn’t he create time sooner then he did? And what was his motive/reason for creating the universe?
Creation is cause and effect! there must first be a will, a desire, and then a plan and a bunch of actions. Cause = will/thought, Effect = creation/design.
If our rules and physics/time does not apply to God, then he is not relative to our reality and we cannot effect or be effected by this anti-relativity being.
Lol! Well scientists have to be rather compulsive before they gain new understanding, butt I see your point.
(* puts on gas mask *)
Don’t let creationists confuse you.
Read Dan’s law of spontaneism:
It’s a matter of ‘possible’, and then a matter of ‘already existent’. It is not a matter of creation.
(* Dan looses his focus and drifts off *)
God damnit that last archive was too sexy… Reminded me of nexus… So much ass… Transhuman-zooman-paradise… 