Do YOU See the Emperor's New Clothes?

(Discussion below line.)

The Emperor’s New Clothes
by Hans Christian Anderson

Once upon a time there lived a vain Emperor whose only worry in life was to dress in elegant clothes. He changed clothes almost every hour and loved to show them off to his people.
Word of the Emperor’s refined habits spread over his kingdom and beyond. Two scoundrels who had heard of the Emperor’s vanity decided to take advantage of it. They introduced themselves at the gates of the palace with a scheme in mind.

 "We are two very good tailors and after many years of research we have invented an extraordinary method to weave a cloth so light and fine that it looks invisible. As a matter of fact it is invisible to anyone who is too stupid and incompetent to appreciate its quality." 

 The chief of the guards heard the scoundrel's strange story and sent for the court chamberlain. The chamberlain notified the prime minister, who ran to the Emperor and disclosed the incredible news. The Emperor's curiosity got the better of him and he decided to see the two scoundrels. 

 "Besides being invisible, your Highness, this cloth will be woven in colors and patterns created especially for you." The emperor gave the two men a bag of gold coins in exchange for their promise to begin working on the fabric immediately. 

 "Just tell us what you need to get started and we'll give it to you." The two scoundrels asked for a loom, silk, gold thread and then pretended to begin working. The Emperor thought he had spent his money quite well: in addition to getting a new extraordinary suit, he would discover which of his subjects were ignorant and incompetent. A few days later, he called the old and wise prime minister, who was considered by everyone as a man with common sense. 

 "Go and see how the work is proceeding," the Emperor told him, "and come back to let me know." 

 The prime minister was welcomed by the two scoundrels. 

 "We're almost finished, but we need a lot more gold thread. Here, Excellency! Admire the colors, feel the softness!" The old man bent over the loom and tried to see the fabric that was not there. He felt cold sweat on his forehead. 

 "I can't see anything," he thought. "If I see nothing, that means I'm stupid! Or, worse, incompetent!" If the prime minister admitted that he didn't see anything, he would be discharged from his office. 

 "What a marvelous fabric, he said then. "I'll certainly tell the Emperor." The two scoundrels rubbed their hands gleefully. They had almost made it. More thread was requested to finish the work. 

 Finally, the Emperor received the announcement that the two tailors had come to take all the measurements needed to sew his new suit. 

 "Come in," the Emperor ordered. Even as they bowed, the two scoundrels pretended to be holding large roll of fabric. 

 "Here it is your Highness, the result of our labour," the scoundrels said. "We have worked night and day but, at last, the most beautiful fabric in the world is ready for you. Look at the colors and feel how fine it is." Of course the Emperor did not see any colors and could not feel any cloth between his fingers. He panicked and felt like fainting. But luckily the throne was right behind him and he sat down. But when he realized that no one could know that he did not see the fabric, he felt better. Nobody could find out he was stupid and incompetent. And the Emperor didn't know that everybody else around him thought and did the very same thing. 

 The farce continued as the two scoundrels had foreseen it. Once they had taken the measurements, the two began cutting the air with scissors while sewing with their needles an invisible cloth. 

 "Your Highness, you'll have to take off your clothes to try on your new ones." The two scoundrels draped the new clothes on him and then held up a mirror. The Emperor was embarrassed but since none of his bystanders were, he felt relieved. 

 "Yes, this is a beautiful suit and it looks very good on me," the Emperor said trying to look comfortable. "You've done a fine job." 

 "Your Majesty," the prime minister said, "we have a request for you. The people have found out about this extraordinary fabric and they are anxious to see you in your new suit." The Emperor was doubtful showing himself naked to the people, but then he abandoned his fears. After all, no one would know about it except the ignorant and the incompetent. 

 "All right," he said. "I will grant the people this privilege." He summoned his carriage and the ceremonial parade was formed. A group of dignitaries walked at the very front of the procession and anxiously scrutinized the faces of the people in the street. All the people had gathered in the main square, pushing and shoving to get a better look. An applause welcomed the regal procession. Everyone wanted to know how stupid or incompetent his or her neighbor was but, as the Emperor passed, a strange murmur rose from the crowd. 

 Everyone said, loud enough for the others to hear: "Look at the Emperor's new clothes. They're beautiful!" 

 "What a marvellous train!" 

 "And the colors! The colors of that beautiful fabric! I have never seen anything like it in my life!" They all tried to conceal their disappointment at not being able to see the clothes, and since nobody was willing to admit his own stupidity and incompetence, they all behaved as the two scoundrels had predicted. 

 A child, however, who had no important job and could only see things as his eyes showed them to him, went up to the carriage. 

 "The Emperor is naked," he said. 

 "Fool!" his father reprimanded, running after him. "Don't talk nonsense!" He grabbed his child and took him away. But the boy's remark, which had been heard by the bystanders, was repeated over and over again until everyone cried: 

 "The boy is right! The Emperor is naked! It's true!" 

 The Emperor realized that the people were right but could not admit to that. He though it better to continue the procession under the illusion that anyone who couldn't see his clothes was either stupid or incompetent. And he stood stiffly on his carriage, while behind him a page held his imaginary mantle.

I would just like to say that those “scoundrels” were mean.

But – atleast they had a ‘lesson’ in mind, and not just ‘being mean’.

I would also like to say, that everybody who knew the dude was walking around naked… knew there were no clothes, but went along with it – were idiots. But the strange thing is, you see it all the time.

Some of us probably do this on occasion (there are studies of it actually, in social psychology)… we hesitate and go with whatever the ‘others’ did (even if we know we’re right… we doubt ourselves)… then we look back and see how we should not have doubted.

But this story was not so much about being sure of oneself, it was more about not being so vain about one’s image.

It was because of vanity that he doubted himself… because he did not want to appear “stupid and incompetent”. The irony is that he thinks the people who don’t see it, don’t matter (and to him it is funny that they can’t see it) – when there’s really nothing to see (and it’s not just the ‘lesser folk’ who realize this), and the joke’s on him. In his fear of being thought of as ‘stupid and incompetent’ – he proves himself so.

I think there can be an ‘internal’-image obssession, as strong as the more well-known ‘external’-image obssession. For example, intellectual snobs.

I’ve been hearing the ‘emperor’s new clothes’ lingo alot lately, and I’m just sort of confused on whether the authors interpret this story the same way I do…

How do you interpret it?

I sort of started this thread very late at night and, reading over it, my thoughts didn’t come out quite as articulately as I thought they had.

  1. Correction: There is no lesson by the scoundrels (they were just taking advantage of the emperor’s weakness), but there is a lesson, a moral, from the author. The lesson is not at all to take advantage of others who have the same weakness as the emperor (see paragraph below paragraph ‘3’)… the lesson is actually to pull your head out of your ass if you are like the emperor.

  2. The main focus was how our thinking can be skewed if our identity is wrapped up in how image-obssessed others (obssessed with fashion or with being perceived as smart and competent – or whatever) perceive us. We can convince ourselves of the most outlandish things, if we feel our image is at stake if we don’t “see it” the way others do.

  3. Notice how, rather than stop living under the illusion of his image, since everyone obviously now sees it as illusion – the Emperor insists on maintaining it – to protect his own vanity? His self-esteem is rooted in others being lesser in comparison to his image. I don’t know why I said he thought it was funny that they couldn’t see it – that had nothing to do with the story. :wink:

He is no brave stand-apart. But neither are the people who kept up the illusion /for the same reason/ he did. Fear of being thought of as stupid and incompetent.

The child, who had no ‘impression’ to keep up, was the only one who had balls enough to tell how he /really/ saw it.

I hope that came across a little bit more articulately.

Another way to say what I’m thinking:

There seems to be four characters to relate to in this story:

  1. The scheming tailors, who wish to take advantage of and expose the Emperor’s weakness. Because they get pleasure out of another’s weakness, they, too, are weak.

  2. The Emperor, who is taken advantage of by the tailors due to his dependence on his image being perceived as ‘better’ than/by others. (Because he gets pleasure out of others being “lower”, he, too, is “low”.) Invisible clothes… invisible… ‘ideas’… whatever.

  3. The various ‘people’ who have the same weakness as the Emperor and so are afraid of calling “bullshit”.

  4. The child who does not have the weakness, and so is able to see things clearly, and actually tell it like it is – rather than having to fool anybody to feel “less-vain”, or having to maintain an illusion to escape feeling ‘stupid and incompetent’ himself.

Question: which would you rather be?

I get a feeling of revulsion when I read people enjoying talking over others’ heads… at the same time pretending to rebuke it… I can’t help judging it as pathetic.

Self-reflection and honesty are enemies to those self-deceivers, and they lash back as they drown in lies.

There are two different kinds of laughs… the kind I hear from them… it breaks my heart with pity.

Maybe I am overly sensitive and should get thicker skin, and not care. Maybe my standards are too high and I should expect less from people? I just want less bullshit. Is that too much to ask?

Knowing you are superior, and needing to be recognized as such (whether you are or not) (and all the ways in which that effects one’s behavior) – a fine line between them.

She, have you gone mental? Have you truely gone fishing? Are you a mad-woman running naked through the night with a lantern…seeking God?

Who are you talking to?

Look, just relax, sit down, and tell me what happened.

Well, you’ve made me think. . . and here is what I see:

recently, I made a post in the philosophy section using certain (I guess you can say) esoteric terms – and one of them, perhaps more, I used not in the way they were intended by the philosophers who used them. One such example, that I recently discovered in my own writing, was the concept of “intentionality” (which I had a misunderstanding of)–now, to someone unfamiliar with these ‘concepts’ they – I draw the analogy – would resemble the crowd which is afraid of sounding stupid or incompetent – and so they would praise, or say nothing, about the thoughts presented. However, the reason for a philosophy forum in the first place, in my opinion, is to share the ideas one has, with others, and learn from their feedback – so that one can obtain a greater sense of clarity about one’s own thoughts. I personally look forward to criticism whenever I post something because it gives me an opportunity to learn; I think, we can only grow by recognizing our own mistakes.

P.S.

Please take this the right way, I intend no malice: I hope, the next time you read something of mine, or anyone else’s, in the philosophy section, that you offer constructive criticism rather than an insult. How else is one supposed to learn? Be the kid and tell the emperor he’s naked, but don’t be childish by sticking out your finger and laughing at him – the emperor, if he’s wise, won’t keep on riding through the parade, but will say thank you, and go and put on some clothes.

Best regards,

-andré

Well, I am no scheming tailor, and I am not laughing and pointing, either. The one I was talking to, understands me… the rest of you – relax (well… including the one I was talking to) (not too much relaxing… lest it breed indifference… :wink: ). If this ‘speaks to’ anyone unintentionally… hey… that can’t be a bad thing.

TUM – if it is in my capacity to challenge anyone’s points in the philo. forum, that I definitely will – so far, I’m mostly in observing-learning, maybe toss in a few cents… mode.

I am completely relaxed… thankyou, D.

to be yourself is all that you can do… as my 2nd-favorite band would say.

Yea I realized I got you and ‘someoneisathedoor’ confused – too many someone’s in this world! anybody lived in a pretty how town I guess.

the emperor might be in on it if he hung like donkey

lol :laughing:

just for the record… I don’t look like that at all when I laugh…

I’m beginning to notice the annoying-ness of emoticons…

The parable simply illustrates the extreme conclusion of self -delusion, and the willingness to grant authority extra rope with which to hang themselves.

I suspect that the parable is making the rounds because of a certain government administration. (everyone furtively looks at their own government)

Gamer makes a good point. Interesting how a few extra inches turns a laughingstock into a hero.

Must look into transplants…

JT

Self-delusion… yes… this might have something to do with that… a little bit…

Authority/administration… no. I fear I am being completely misunderstood, and yet I don’t fear it… the consequences are not great. If that is just your take on the story, tentative, that’s fine – that’s not what I get from the story at all.

People love mystery… love… scandal… it’s elementary… a distraction from the real concerns of life…

tentative, if what Gamer said was not meant as a joke (which is hilarious) and was actually part of the story, this would not have been part of the story:

The emperor is so embarrassed by the reality of the situation, he refuses to ‘behave’ within it… It’s like a guy trips but tries to play it off like he meant to do it, and ridicules anyone who acknowledges it as an accident… but then roasts the hell out of the next person who trips… we all trip now and then…

somenewname,

To be sure, the parable is but a mirror- one that each of us must see into…

my tongue and cheek on authority/administration: The general observation would be that our delusions are fed by the illusions presented by those around us. The ‘enablers’ are with us - always.

And yes, no one wants to be seen as the fool, but enjoys catching others…

It’s a good parable because there are so many lessons that can be taken from it.

JT

As far as the parable being a mirror… I have observed this as well. I posted it elsewhere and got an interesting reaction… something else was seen that I hadn’t seen in the story.

The author of the parable had something specific in mind, of course, which the readers may not see.

that could be said of all of our interactions (on- and off-line)… a thread I posted in the rant forum got some very interesting interpretations not intended by me, the author…

as far as not wanting to be seen as the fool – I couldn’t care less… I am not here to make an impression, but to learn, help others who love to learn (if I can), and maybe goof off a bit… and as far as enjoying catching others – I ain’t no scheming tailor.

Good observation as far as delusions being fed by illusions of those around us… sometimes, who we are is formed in giving others what they expect of us (this is true on many levels) – and sometimes we play into another’s delusion, but not always to strengthen it… sometimes it can be about … understanding… and letting things take their course naturally, rather than forcing your own selfish goals carelessly.

somenewname,

A piercing insight. Coercion destroys all. Hey! How old are you? You gotta be at least 50 to intuit that understanding. :slight_smile:

Anything we call art is a form of mirror. We project our precepts onto our percepts. An author writes to themselves. The reader will only see what they can see, and no two will see the same thing. An abstract painting evokes a thousand different ‘seeings’.

Most of those capable of honesty aren’t too concerned being the fool. We know who we are. Still, some prefer to not get caught and that inflated ego creates an emperor - not that I’ve seen any of that sort of thing here. :unamused:

JT

I don’t think you have to be ‘old’ to understand that sort of thing, though. A lot of kids are pretty intuitive naturally and will exercise it if you don’t silence them. Well… I’m getting dangerously close to 50, lol… life is too damn short. I’m 28.

unless s/he publishes it publically…

well… sometimes that sort of thing may not be on purpose. Do you think the emperor knew how foolish he was being? That’s what I don’t like about the story. Bring in a friend for the emperor, to kick his ass into shape in private – not humiliate him in front of a crowd of sheeple. But – I do like how it showed the kid fearless … neither attempting to please… or displease… because he did not have an impression to keep up.

I don’t really see this as an inflated ego thing, or a piece speaking against holding a position of power.

I see it (in my mirror, lol…) as … well… I pretty much said it up there already… “Knowing you are superior, and needing to be recognized as such (whether you are or not) (and all the ways in which that effects one’s behavior) – a fine line between them.”

The kid is the opposite of the emperor in this story, to me. It’s saying (to me) – don’t be like the emperor – be like the kid.

Don’t have to be 50 to be like the kid…

Yeah, I’m guessing ILP is a petre dish for this sort of thing, but I’m not sure it’s a problem. Yet I can’t help but look at myself through this lens you’re compulsively honing, She. For me the question isn’t “Am I an emperor?” rather, “how am I being an emperor?” Because you just KNOW you’re being an emperor, your bare ass flapping out in the wind, it’s just a matter of time until you discover your folly and play the game of denying it until you’ve built up enough scar tissue from your nagging suspicions and you’re willing the accept/change it. According to the parable the emperor knew all along…so it’s different, granted. But what if it isn’t?

The simple read is of course, someone on this site is being sort of a douchebag. I only recall two or three bonafide douchebags on this site. One was whitelotus, and the other two may be reading this. But we’re talking weirdos, god love 'em.

And stop apologizing for the way you look! In fact, your smile looks a lot like mine. :smiley:

Well, I’ve definitely showed (shown?) my ass, Gamer – sometimes knowing… sometimes only in reflection knowing (and perhaps sometimes not knowing). I don’t claim to be 100% like the kid… I just aspire to be so…

If anybody sees my ass, and I don’t know you’ve seen my ass – please let me know in private – okay? Thanks. Don’t be a scheming tailor and make an ass out of yourself

:smiley: <— I’ve lost weight since that picture, btw.

When I wake up, my smile looks like this: :evilfun:

(pssst…Satyr, watch me work)

If you want me to leave just ask, Gamer.