I’ve come across a strange concept when talking to non-Christians. Whether a person believes that the Christian God exists or not, they almost uniformly seem to believe that God does (or would) love them.
Can someone explain where this idea comes from? Is this an expression of the ego or a belief that human beings in general are inherently loveable, therefore God must do so? Or does it stem from some scriptural reading or understanding of who God is, as defined in the bible. I find this concept very strange! But maybe someone can explain it to me.
Many live good lives regardless of God’s existence. Therefore if they show a bit of imagination and pretend God existed they look back at their lives and understand they would most often not be perfect Christians but still good people. Also God loves all his children?
I have never heard of this. Is this non-Christians in general or a select few you have come across in real life or on ILP? Your use of the word “uniformly” suggests that you mean all non-Christians in general.
Now, as I recall, when you and I were having talks about your belief, you explained rather arrogantly how your belief requires not only implications about your life but mine and others as well. This, I have surmised stems from the Christian precept that God loves and forgives all (except for doubting the Holy Spirit apparently). You clearly made a case in your mind that even though I don’t accept your religion, you believe it must apply to me no matter what I believe. Considering this, it would seem more likely that you are embedding your expression of ego upon their responses or personalities.
Now, if you want to make the case as being that God is love and that all humanity is capable of love, then that would mean that everyone can be in sync with God and through love are empowered by God. In this case, it would be reasonable for people to say such things as they are only looking for love (compassion) from other human beings. However, I doubt that this is the point you are trying to make, or am I wrong?
Actually, as I recall, we talked mostly about your belief in the origin of religious hate. Maybe you should re-read your thread.
Actually, I don’t find this concept, as you describe it, to be Christian at all. In fact, the presumption that God loves everyone is precisely what I’m asking about here. Thank you for illustrating my point.
to be loved strongly is to be adored and people want to beleive god ( an all knowing all wise and powerfull being ) would see them as good or somewhat perfect the way they are. it pleases them and they find comfort in the idea that such being ( God ) finds them good (loves them)
and thus the idea that comes into their head when they think on that matter is as you stated.
Yeah, I think this is probably true. I’m just surprised at how often I have encountered it. But maybe human nature is just such that it is inevitable. “If there is a God then obviously he loves me”. Why? “Because that’s the way I would like it to be!” It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense really…
I always got that impression because it is what the various missionaries who sought to convert me told me.
They tell me that God is love and that God loves me, even though I’m a sinner and that God is all-loving. Then they turn it around and explain that, though God is all-loving, and all-forgiving, if I don’t worship Him, I will spend an eternity in torment in Hell.
I think a lot of it (if not all of it) stems from Henry Ward Beecher, who taught the Gospel of Love, which is basically what I’ve described above.
The whole concept in itself of there being a God does not make a whole lot of sense either. Mankind at its barebones is excessively vain to believe that a being like that would trouble itself with such trivial beings as ourselves. So, my logic behind my statement lies in the fact that we ASSUME there is a being watching over us. And therefore would ask what would make him not love me but love any other? The whole notion is absurd in my mind but I responded with a base human idea.
i edited what i put after what i put in the first post it was somthing along the lines of - the truth is human are stupid ( as oposed to extremely well developed logicians / critical thinkers / perfectionists / philosophers / idealist ) you wont find good reasoning in their actions their beleifs and ideas, what i posted was just the psychology of it.
You could be right. The idea may not have it’s origin in non-Christian thinking but in a certain kind of Christian preaching. But if that’s true it would suggest that such preaching is enormously successful. Or maybe it just finds some kind of bizzare synergy with an inherent need to believe that it is true, even among those who reject it. Does that make any sense to you?!
I’ve heard the gospel message presented almost exactly as you have described, and I agree it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.
I’m guessing that it is a successful strain of preaching, since most Christians who talk to me about their religion seem to believe it.
Then again, they could just be a very, very vocal minority. I live in Indiana, so it’s not like I’m not constantly in contact with devout Christians . . . but only a small subset of them feel the need to share their faith with me in an aggressive manner.
That could be why it is so widely stated by non-Christians (myself included in this), because it is what we have been most exposed to when someone tries to convert us/talk to us about Christianity. And . . . yeah, as you agreed, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. But since it is stated as Gospel Truth when these people talk to us, we just sorta take it and run with it, either saying that 1) God doesn’t make a whole lot of sense 2) clearly God is all forgiving, so we will be forgiven for our unbelief or 3) God is, errr, kinda insecure for an omnipotent being, you sure he is all he is cracked up to be?
As for it creating that syngery, I totally believe that. As Oni said, I think that most people would want to believe in a God like that, since it is comforting. I believe that harkens back to your point in another thread about seperating what you want to be true from what the Bible declares as truth. My guess is that many people aren’t as willing to let go of the former and emphasize the latter.
Heh, that reminds me of a friend of the family. He was a preacher (Episcopalian, sp?) who got run out of his parish due to some nasty politics going on. One of the comments he recieved was, “When I go to Church, I don’t want to think. I want to go to social functions, give up candy for lent, and get into Heaven.” Or something similar to that. Terrifying.
Ahh, okay; just checking to make sure you were still being pompous and arrogant about your beliefs. I’m glad that was cleared up quick.
Actually Ned, if you read my comment, I never said anything about that thread. I am not making that thread an issue here, you are. I was specifically talking about the moment when we were discussing your beliefs… the fact that they were in that thread is entirely irrelevant.
Just in case you forgot what you said exactly:
Of course when I asked what your ultimate truth was you declined to say for no given reason. This statement leads me to believe that if it is not shown because it is so weak that it cannot withstand debate, then it is not absolute.
No? Hmmm… that’s very interesting Ned.
I say it’s interesting because the Bible apparently shows that the only real eternal sin is blaspheming the Holy Spirit… illustrated by Luke 12:10 and Mark 3:29. Aside from this, there are many examples that show Jesus will forgive you for practically anything, so how can the concept of loving and forgiving all not be Christian when it started with Christ? Did it then end with him?
Another interesting thing is, while you believe that it is non-Christians that believe in this concept, I have met many Christians and from most, not all, I have confirmed that they believe the concept that God loves and forgives all. Anotherwords… I think you’ve got your tables turned. Of course, I or you could throw a poll up on ILP and see how wrong you would be, but I know that isn’t necessary.
Anyways, thank you for helping me illustrate my point.
Sure, I’m pompous and arrogant. Whatever makes you happy Sage…
Yes, and all my positions are weak and hopeless. Whatever will I do…?
Well, you obviously didn’t understand my point of this thread. The issue is not whether Jesus is, or was loving, or whether love is a Christian concept, or whether there is a limit to forgiveness etc… The issue is whether you think God loves you. I find it odd that those who don’t believe in Christ somehow also manage to hold the concept that he would love them if he somehow did exist. Don’t you find that just a little strange?
Well, maybe you’re right, and non-Christians do not assume that God loves them. But it seems like there are a few others here who actually understood what I was getting at.
Well, if you contribute a modest fee to my “ministry” and subscribe to my recent magazine on Christian underwater prayer (which comes with a life-size bronzed statue of Jesus swimming in lake galilee), I’ll see if I can work something out for you…
Well in that case I apologize for the misunderstanding. I assumed that you were proclaiming that all non-Christians think that God does or would love them, which you confirmed, and later recanted. I understood what you were getting at, but that begining assumption of yours that all non-Christians would think such a thing showed a lack of proper academic research and that just didn’t sit well with me. So it’s good that we’ve cleared that mess up. Now we can get back to the topic.
As for your question, “do I think the Christian God loves me?” Well, that question poses a problem in itself; a conundrum if you will. In order for me to answer it, I would have to first affirm (or at the very least assume) the existence of the Christian God in my own belief structure in the manner that the question automatically affirms it. Being agnostic, I can neither make the assumption to deny nor affirm that existence. In this sense, the question just does not apply to me and I cannot give an answer.
However, for the sake of argument… the original question also stated “would,” meaning under the assumption that he existed. In this case, if I went under the assumption that the Christian God existed, I would feel as I did in my youth and believe in him; for the assumption itself is by definition, an affirmation, and thereby automatically declare my answer as being a “yes.” If on the other hand I was under the assumption that the Christian God didn’t exist, I would have to reply based on the viewpoint of aetheism or another belief like Islam. The Muslim would perhaps retort saying: “Jesus was not God, he was a prophet!” and thereby dismiss your question.
It is a very good question though… one for the books. The art of words is a wonder of man’s achievements.
As I explained above, people who answer the question probably don’t even realize that it represents a manner of belief trickery. Yes I do find it strange when observing it right off the bat, but when I analyze the question itself, it makes more sense. Non-Christians may possibly recant their original answer upon ascertaining this affirmation displayed in the question.
Ned, the simple answer is that non-Christian theists are just doing Christianity without any obligatory strings attached. They only god they’ve heard of is the Christian presentation of Him, and so therefore, even when they call themselves non-Christian, that’s what they follow. You could just as easily ask why these non-Christians reflexively believe that God is good, or Powerful, or that there’s only one of Him.
The basic premise is that because we base god upon our mothers, in the “primitive” brain that develops during infancy, any connection that is “spiritual”, ir-regardless of how it develops is because of a re-igniting of this primitive brain function. Inside of it, we “feel” connected to god, and to love. So to answer your question?
God still loves them as long as they love themselves.
I don’t think you are following this thread very well. I think you should re-read the posts because you’re obviously not getting it.
So, you don’t know. Fine. I wasn’t specifically asking you the question anyway.
Why would he love you?
I think you’re getting yourself tied in knots unecessarily. It’s not a trick question to make you admit that God exists. It’s a simple question about the perception of God from those who have a unique viewpoint.
