Doesn't God share some blame for the way the world is?

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
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Why didn’t God create a world with a little less suffering and pain? Even if we accept that God needed to give us “free will” to make our own choices, it seems that God could have designed human nature and the earth so that there werent as many babies who suffer and die before they even reach one year old, werent as many murders of innocent people, rapes, etc. I mean all it would take is for human nature to be just a little more empathetic to each other, we could still retain our free will and be a bit kinder and sympathetic, have more of an aversion to cruelty and hatred and depravity.

But God made this world the way that it is, and so God shares at least some of the blame for what happens in it. I’m not saying we can blame God entirely, because he did give us free will so make our own choices, but God still must have known that many terrible things would happen to innocent people, that so many lives and souls would have only a short miserable life of pain and suffering, and then die horrible deaths. What makes those people less deserving of a good natural long life, where they can be happy and come to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior? What makes a poor african boy, who dies from tribal warfare by being dismembered and starving and rotting to death in absolute misery in the hot sun, any less deserving of the life and joys of an average middle-class american who has a normal and happy life most of the time? Even granting we have free will, how can God have set up the initial conditions of the world in such a way that it is even possible that life exists the way it does now? Doesnt God, in setting up the world this way, in knowing the depths of hatred and depravity and cruelty in so many humans, deserve at least some of the blame for the way that the world is?

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All that Is is Perfect. Quit the bad habit of moralistic whining, for death is worth living for!

-WL

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That doesnt answer the question I am asking - I am asking the question from the perspective of common modern Christian belief and their notion of God. If God is perfect, and if the world is perfect, then why is a child born with a crippling disease only to suffer in agony for years and years and then die? Why are young children trafficked as sex slaves all around the world, raped and murdered? Why do innocent people get victimized and suffer at the hands of the cruel? These certainly dont seem like aspects of a “perfect” world to me.

Are you trying to say that a perfect God is incapable of designing a world where these sort of things do not happen?

4

You enact moral indignation with commonplace Christian belief. When moral indignation is experienced, it is always an unforgiveable blight upon the religious mind, and its exact object (worthy or unworthy) is of no consequence.

Furthermore, what have you to do with the errors of modern Christians?

-WL

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You didnt answer my question. This topic is not about my personal feelings about Christian belief, those feeling notwithstanding I am trying to examine the beliefs themselves, objectively, based on their own merit and how they are affirmed by Christians. The point is that, based on their concept and notion of God, he must deserve some of the blame for the deplorable and imperfect way the world is, assuming of course that the Christian looks at the world and sees it in a state of being deplorable and imperfect, full of suffering and pain, which, in my experience, is universally how Christians view the world. That perspective of theirs, coupled with their notion of a perfect and all-powerful God (a God who “can do anything”), generates the contradiction that I seek to address here.

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Écouter caro mio, zvuchit rhetorica:

The sons of a donkey are donkeys. The sons of a lion are lions. The sons of God - gods. (All “in potens”)
This uncomplicated derivation addresses the question of human tabula-rasa potential most succintly while also illustrating that Man, in God’s image, is necessarily God’s universal co-creator.

There are forces and entities in the world who are, similarly, God’s co-destroyers.

The abstract evildoers you malign in your message are defenseless and mute, therefore I am automatically on their side in this discussion. Each of these tiny co-destroyers has done his part, out of selfish or perverse motivations that are no different from those that inhabit your mind as well, and the only distinction we should fairly make, is that they were more audacious and successful in restructuring the world around them, in their image, while your equivallent evil impulses have perhaps fizzled and petered out due to the simian, unconscious fear of punishment, that we call “good upbringing”.

After all, no evil personage or oppressive conglomerate originated in our world ex nihilo, “by magic”. In every case it has been the result of meticulous preparation and effort on the part of its human servicemen and perhaps the imagined or actual natural forces involved in its birth and maintanence. At every step these structures have earned the right to existence, because they were able to outwit and overcome the resistance.

And if you wished to speak of the co-creative impulse, the force for good with which you always identify by curious default, then what complaints can there be from the loser athlete, unable to lift a weight he himself designated as the one fit for him to apply against? It is good to choose a fitting weight, one that you can lift such as you truly are (and not the one seen in the mirages of wishful thinking), and if there are suffering children heavy on your mind, if this makes the world itself seem disagreeable and crudely made, then is it not your immediate task as co-creator to take a plane there and rescue them?

-WL

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Fair enough then…I’ll assume you are still interested in responses from the houses of Catholicism, Lutheranism, and Evangelicalism and that is all; no creative thinking allowed.

Well…let’s have a look at what their answers are:

Catholic:
He did, Adam introduced suffering with his use of his free will to choose sin.
Adam’s free choice is what brought suffering, and that choice was within his right as God’s first.

Lutheran:
He did, Adam introduced suffering with his use of his free will to choose sin.
This was so done so that man could be purified (cleaned/filtered) through his own will.

Evangelical:
Satan introduced suffering and evil into the world and corrupted man; God allows man salvation because it was not man’s fault, but Satan’s.
Man must now choose, with his free will, between what is right by God and what is wrong. The good will suffer on Earth tirelessly because the world is now Satan’s and Satan is waring against all of God’s chosen.
(paraphrasing heavily, and this may not be exact for every Evangelical out there as they do not use a common doctrine)

Catholic:
God did not make the word this way, God made the world as it was in Eden. Adam’s choice made the world natural to Sin.

Lutheran:
God made the design of the world starting as it was in Eden with Adam’s flaw so to purify man; it is not God’s fault as God does not will this upon man, but it is necessary that man have his own freedom for becoming pure for the final Judgement.

Evangelical:
God did not make the world this way; Satan did; God is only allowing this to continue because it is according to plan and all suffering will be reconciled at the end of times when all left on Earth that are not God’s children will suffer worse than all of God’s children have ever suffered.

There is the break down by their own merit.

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As I said it is a general set of these beliefs, not any sort of absolutism on my part. I merely mentioned those three to best express to you the essence of what I am trying to capture. It is by no means an absolute, black and white sort of distinction of these denominations vs those ones.

God designed Adam, and the conditions of the world, so even if God granted Adam free will God still shares in part of the blame for the way things are, because God choose to set up the initial conditions like this.

That is not a part of any lutheran belief I know of. Lutherans believe that Adam was “bad” in sinning, that God was “angry” with him, that God did not want Adam to sin, thus the punishment that God inflicts on Adam.

God created Satan, and once Satan “fell from grace” God choose not to destroy him, but to A) let him live, and B) let him influence Adam. So clearly here, too, God shares some of the blame for the consequences of Satan’s actions and influences over men.

God made Adam, and God could terminate the world at any moment he wishes, so therefore God shares in some of the blame by condoning everything that happens.

Once again, I have never heard of this belief. Lutherans that I know believe that Adam sinned against God and that God did not “intend” for this to happen. But if God did intend for this, based on some agenda like “purify man”, then clearly in this case God shares the blame for the results of this.

Once again, God made Satan, God continuously condone’s Satan’s existence by refusing to destroy him. So naturally God shares some of the blame for what Satan does.

Thanks, but really I am not looking at it as black and white as you are. But I appreciate the breakdown, even though it is somewhat unnecessary.

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You tend to be vague and yet specific whenever it suits your needs.
This is rather frustrating since there is no one “Christian belief” common among everyone as you posit such to exist.

How is it that we are to know that God set anything up completely?
Wait… never mind; that’s outside of your interest scope.

Well, I’ll grab the Catholic’s answer…never mind…you don’t want that either.

Well, I don’t have anything for ya guy.
This isn’t my bag and it’s really very few around here’s either.

I can’t dress up as your punching bag.
I can think for myself and tell you my perspective, but I can’t dress up as a ghost for you to chase.

But because I have nothing else, I’ll just say that the Catholic response would be that God granted free will for the need of creating a free spirit; which means that man has to have the ability to f’ everything up on his own and be capable of doing so.
All so that redemption is that much more savored and the soul that much more holy, but uniquely on it’s own merit and accord.

Same difference really.
Luther is the one that started the entire concept based on man really sucking and needing retribution of suffering in guilt for cleansing (paraphrasing).

shrug
Sure, why the hell not.
It’s not like it makes a lick of difference either way.

Still don’t really understand why you are positing on ILP with this instead of random Christian forums since you like to show “them” their folly’s.

sigh…blah…well…let’s see…in LOST, Jakob keeps the man in black on the island so that he can’t kill the entire world because Jakob and the man in black can’t kill each other, but others can kill them; so the game is a-foot.
Sorry…wait…I got lost in which religion I was speaking about.

Sure, why not.
Now how is this a bad thing?

I’ve yet to see you describe how this is bad in all actuality.

Well, if God didn’t intend for it to happen, poof goes omniscience.
If God did, then sure…place the blame on God.
And in so doing, explain exactly what’s wrong with it?

Now see…if you didn’t have these blinders on where you don’t want to hear anything I think at all freely, then you could learn something here about the relationship between God and Satan that exists in the Hebraic texts that are remarkably different than this super evil villain.

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Stumps,

Okay, let me be clear here, and this is regarding all of my similar posts here that pose a specific question on religion: in many cases, ask a Christian if, for example here, God is to blame for the way that the world is, and they will say “No”. Ask a Christian if (again, in many cases) they believe that God is perfect and all-knowing, they will say “Yes”. Ask a Christian if you have to ask Jesus for forgiveness of your sins to go to heaven, they will say “Yes”. Etc. That is the structure of my questions. Yes I realise some Christians will answer with more nuanced responses, or avoid the question, or have different opinions. But try it, trust me I think you will find a remarkable consistency in the responses: just go out and ask some one you know who professes to be a Christian, ask them those simple questions, and see how they answer.

I know many Christians, I used to be one when I was young and hadnt really thought about religion much yet. The Christians I know answer these questions in the manner that I identify here. That is my only point: that these beliefs are fairly common, and many people who would say “Yes” if you asked them whether or not they are a Christian will also answer these questions in the manner I supposed here. So. With that in mind, lets realise that these beliefs, when phrased in this yes or no format, will elicit definite yes or no responses from Christians. Some will be “No” or an evasive “Maybe, kinda”, but many will also be a definitive “Yes, God is perfect, He does not make mistakes”. Etc.

I am identifying those beliefs to which one has answered “Yes”. I am thus ignoring all other beliefs which might be similar but differing, such as more nuanced or conditional or what have you. The reason I am focusing on these beliefs in their simple “Yes” format is because out of the many Christians I know and have known, most of them answer these questions that way. As I said, go try it and ask a Christian you know how they answer these questions. So with that in mind, lets realise that A) these ideas are meaningful when phrased in this yes or no format, and B) many people hold these beliefs in the way that I present them here.

Now with all that in mind, now that I have clearly identified the context within which I am asking these questions, perhaps we can avoid any more “confusion” in the future. Asking me to clarify the belief is one thing, telling me the belief does not exist as I mention it here, is another thing entirely - I can assure you, people do hold these beliefs as I mention them here. Maybe you do not, maybe some Christian you know does not frame it in this simple yes or no format, but many, many do.

So, can you agree that people do hold these beliefs, and that it is meaningful to discuss them in a rational and objective (ie. philosophical) manner? Or, if you continue to insist that I am merely wasting my time here, assume I have negative intentions and am merely trying to show off and “get my jollies off” or whatever, despite my repeated clarifications, then I will have no option other than to refrain from posting anything in this forum from now on. I guess its up to you - if you seriously have a problem with these questions, or if you are going to continue to treat me in a hostile and arrogant, dismissive manner, then I see no use in my continuing to participate here, and will simply not do so.

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Your last post confuses me a bit. If you’re demanding the right to script the response of any Christian or other who addresses to you, why is your thread full of question marks? You see this all the time from skeptics- they pose some perennial question, and when you answer it, they fall back on, “Yeah, but many Christians don’t say that”. As if they score points for defeating the positions of the dumbest Christians.
Don’t you think you belittle your own position if you only allow it to be wrestled with by the easiest targets?
Anyway, in answer to your question, I think you’ve got two major issues. The first is that you’re trying to play around with things like ‘tendencies’ while retaining free will. I.E., you say that God could have left us with our free will, but gave us a ‘stronger aversion’ to doing evil. Two things- first, most of us already have a pretty strong aversion to doing evil, people do wicked things in extreme circumstances, most of the time. Free will has to at least allow this possibility. Secondly, how much stronger could you make an ‘aversion’ without being a curb to will?
The other issue deals, ironically, with an oversight on what ‘most Christians would say’. Most Christians should be quick to point out that humans and God aren’t the actors in the play here- there’s Satan and his demons, too, and it’s hard to say how much of the world’s evil they account for- surely they are capable of promoting evil that has no obvious agent behind it. Now, it may be that ‘scholarly Christians’ or ‘educated Christians’ or whatever don’t find Satan to be an appealing part of their theology. But you can’t appeal to just the high brow beliefs one on hand, then insist you’re talking about ‘most Christians’ on the other.

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No.
It’s pointless to discuss something of religion that has nothing to do with your own interests; your own investments.
Just waxing on about how some other people’s beliefs are folly is aimless and fruitless.

If you want to discuss how these things don’t make sense to you, great! Fantastic!
Now let’s start by talking about why they don’t make sense to you, and let’s look at why the belief’s you are familiar with are running on the doctrines they are running on by comparison to other possible answers and see if anything strikes you along the way as provocative.

If you don’t want to do that…well…then you don’t really want to talk on ILP in my opinion, as that’s what this place is about; personal investment in the discussions.

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Do you understand that philosophy divorces a person’s personal beliefs from the examination of the belief itself? I am personally invested here, but not because of my personal religious beliefs, or lack thereof – I am invested in the ideas as ideas, in the rational discussion of these concepts, in the logical analysis of them. Philosophy is objective and rational, and I certainly do not need to have a strong “feeling” about whether or not I personally believe in Christianity or not, in order to be interested in performing logical analyses and promoting rational and critical dialogue on these ideas.

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I’m tired of this back and forth…I’ll just ask for you to give us the premises for the conclusions that God created the world with suffering and pain.

By the way…we’re not in the philosophy section.

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TLM
Let me help you out here. To put faith and religion into it’s simplest form and motivations it’s based on fear and profit. That’s it, nothing left and I think you knew that comming in. So please just let them live in fear and denial. Live your life man. I enjoyed your prodding but you have to let it go. You can’t get a straight answer if the logic is circular.
John

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Let me try my point of view. This is probably one of the most intriguing questions that, I believe, every single one of us at some already asked ourselves (or others). Everytime there is a fact of random injustice in the world, it is very hard for us not to ask that question. I believe it helps if we don’t try to fragment ourselves from God. What I believe is that all of us are actually part of God, or, as Jesus said in the Bible: “You are Gods.” The metaphore I usually use to try to explain what I think is this. I believe God is the white light in the movie projector, and we are the pictures that compose the movies. Meaning, the white light is the only common denominator in all movies, but none less each movie is different. What I mean is that I believe our true nature is God, and our individuality is what colors the universe in its variuos expressions. Working with that premise; that we are actually God, we take advantage of our free will as creatures to act upon the creation. Our creativity is what acts upon the creation. It is very hard to understand this without agreeing in our immortality after the death of our bodies.
I think what I’m trying to say is; we should not blame God as a separate individuality for the misfortunes that we bring upon ourselves.

I can almost hear you asking the next question: “But what about the death of babies for instance? They didn’t bring that upon themselves?”. Agreed. However, if you start seeing our existance as more than just these 70-90 years or whatever that we spend in this state of our consciousness, we can understand that everything that happens to us serves a single purpose: The evolution of our own consciousness. Think back to your school days. Wasn’t the subjects you learnt the best the ones that were conducted by the most demanding teachers? The follow up question would be: Didn’t you think at the time you were going through the “suffering” of the long hours of study and group work, etc, that was an injustice with you and that you rather be doing something else? Well, I believe our life on Earth is nothing but a school. And if you factor in multiple encarnations; you could see this school as each consecutive life as one school grade.
In summary, I don’t think the “bad things” that happen in the world are bad after all, but learning opportunities for our immortal spirit.