Drama

Drama examines the weakness of humans, exposes that weakness, and attempts to give catharsis to the human audience by showing the weakness as somehow overcomeable even though overcoming weakness usually means death. (Miller’s Death of a Salesman, for example. Willy Loman was a Christ figure, who gave his life for his family. Miller’s plays examine death. Life leads to death.)

Death is very private and alone. No one shares death. It’s the people around death who try to share their feelings about your death, thereby focusing attention on them rather than on you and death. That shift in focus can be beneficial for them and their audience. But it may totally neglect your dying, physical, needs while answering your emotional needs as you die.

Have people died because of too much love?

I would think they have. Stong emotional attachment can create severe issues

liz-------weakness also can lead to strength not just death…we don’t have to die on some type of cross to be helpful…

Pets are known to morn and sometimes to die when their masters die. Is this love or dependence?

Exactly, love creates a severe dependency state between two people, exclusively a man and woman desperately in love with each other. The rule of love is reciprocity. One leads, the other follows, and benefits are reciprocal, yet rarely mutually beneficial. The benefits of love are determined by expectations and conditions, conditional love. “I love you if” or “I love you under conditions x, y, z”

This has already been discussed in my other thread.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=182728

Love is an enslaving experience, not a freeing experience. Love does not free people. Love enslaves others into responsibilities, emotional attachments, obligations, duties, with distinct benefits and costs.

That is not love, that is obsession…

You’re talking about love without passion, Kriswest. Maybe you’ve never experienced it. Maybe it’s too rare. Most people talk about “love” but look at them, divorced, bitter, jaded, uninspiring, forgotten. Love without passion is just, worthless.

I think that’s more along the lines of what you’re talking about, an uninspiring form of love, bland, uneventful.

Forgettable.

lizbeth, is this sort of about your sister and you? Is everything OK?

Maybe, but not directly because of his act. Anyone can perform virtually any act, and it can be Inherently selflish or inherently selfless based on the motivation behind it. Motivation is really what matters, rather than any perceivable cause and effect.

As an interesting anecdote, anytime one overcomes a perceivable weakness in life, a little bit of their old personality and optimism dies along with it. This is why as individuals get older, they become increasingly more and more bitter, jaded, and hostile, while less frequently repeating the mistakes of their past. Its like having a monkey on your back, and that thing just keeps gaining weight by the day.

And those people who love “with passion”, don’t also experience these things? The sole difference is in the intensity, not the outcomes. O:)

Sometimes I think emotional needs are the most important needs - more important than food and shelter, for instance.

Sort of, Kris. Mainly, it’s about what I’ve learned about myself and my extended family over the last few days. It’s a kind of existential dilemma–but one I think I’ve answered for myself–I hope.

My sister has metastasized cancer. She’s dying. Last week, another sister called to say our sister awoke at 3:30 am in terrible pain and was now on morphine and had only a week or two to live. Her children were, understandably, practically hysterical. My husband and I went down the next day to see what was being done and to see if there was anything we could help with. So far, so good.

People were invading the house–visiting nurses, hired caregivers, family. She had no will, so one was drawn up quickly by my older brother and my niece’s divorce lawyer, signed, notarized, and filed in a day and a half. A day-time caregiver arrived and announced she’d brought her own food–which she began to eat. My sister’s youngest, my nephew, cornered anyone he could to say his mother should be taken off the morphine. It was crazy! It was understandable.

I stayed up all night playing solitaire at the dining room table. If my sister died during the night, I didn’t want her to be alone–her family had either left or had gone to bed. M. spent a comfortable night, so I went home the next day. When I went back this past Sun., I was told to leave. M.'s family didn’t want me–or anyone else–around. Only one thing–M. had said I was welcome any time. She asked for me, when she learned I was there, and we had a nice, quiet, conversation before I left. M. texts me when she wakes in the morning so I know she’s made it through the night.

I spent Mon. thinking about what had gone on over the past week and came to the conclusion that it was all more a comedy of errors than anything else. This may be my own denial, but I don’t think so–at least, not all of it.

We all have a certain amount of ‘essence of drama’ --my family and I perhaps more than most. My older niece posts updates about her Mom on FaceBook, for goodness sake! My nephew alternates between crying on my shoulder and ordering me out of the house so his Mother can die in peace. The middle child, pregnant with her second child, has tried to maintain some sort of sanity in the midst of the chaos.

Enough venting. The question is, “Can people die of being loved too much?”

Willie Loman loved his family. He also realized he was an utter failure in life, as were his family members. Perhaps I shouldn’t have used him as a literary example, except he was so conflicted. My sister’s family is also conflicted: do they do what they can to prolong their Mother’s life or do they “do” things just to be doing them and to give them purpose? Do they love their Mom, or do they love themselves? This is the existential dilemma, to me. And it’s probably an unfair set of questions because the answer is the same. Yes.

Remember, in Little Big Man, how the old Chief went up to the mountain top to die, but came back down because it wasn’t his time yet? I don’t think it’s M.s time to die yet. All her symptoms point to gastric problems which have since been exacerbated by a lack of treatment. She isn’t being given the proper ‘binding’ foods, her strength is being sapped by diarrhea and everyone’s acceptance of her coming death from cancer. Is she in danger of dying because of those treatable medical problems or because her children love her too much?

I don’t need to know anyone’s motivation. I want to abstract, to question, and, hopefully, to understand it all to the best of my ability.

Please remember what the thread is about if you decide to reply. It really isn’t about me. It’s living philosophy as you understand philosophy. :slight_smile:

Any strong emotion can and does block logic. That is why courts acknowledge crimes of passion. Even animals succumb to this. A tiny mockingbird can terrify a large predatorial animal into running in fear when it could easily kill its tiny attacker. Strong devotion can lead us to see wrong answers. As much as we need strength of emotions, they are a two edged sword.

I could reinvent this thread under a new name, except I’m sure I’d say a lot of the same things. So I’ll try to get this one back on track, instead, if I can.

Yes, this stems from my sister’s approaching death and the drama that surrounds it. Death is very dramatic.

My sister has chosen to die on her own terms, hers is the leading role, after all. She wants to die with dignity, and she should. She wants no extraordinary means used to prolong her life.

But what constitutes “extraordinary means” to keep a dying person alive?

This is the dilemma. Do you do what you can to make a dying person physically comfortable, which may prolong a life that will end soon anyway? Or do you do nothing–even though doing nothing may prolong physical discomfort in the already dying?

I label this an ‘existential’ dilemma.

In cases like the the person normally gets a morphine drip.They get control of it if they are alert or semi alert. They have signed a DNR. resuscitation is the extraordinary as are feeding tubes and oxygen. Its hard as hell for all.
Keep her last days happy and no stress. Let her know love and happiness. In this, you must contain your pain and be what she needs. Later you will recall her last smile at you. That is what you keep. The good not the pain. This is a time for the gifts of strength and love. I wish I could loan you some to help you all. Live in the past right now, it may help both of you.