Maybe a better focus would be to say what love is in the first place. All diagnoses… of disorders… of issues/problems (be they affective/emotional, behavioral, cognitive)…stem from an alienation away from wholeness (person=person, self=other).
Embrace the awkward.
I’m not only talking about pathological narcissists like sociopathic type people or the personality disorder, but also in the classic sense of narcissism as simply loving yourself at the expense of others, thinking you are the best and most beautiful and most wonderful and no one else compares. Like how Narcissus fell in love with his own reflection.
That is more so a kind of, what’s the word… egoism I suppose, thinking you are better than others. Not necessarily trying to manipulate others to love you and not really coming from any self-hate. So there are distinct types of narcissism we should be aware of.
I like your emphasis on self-acceptance, I was interested in that too. To avoid or pre-empt any types of narcissism it seems like an open and authentic acceptance of self (to accept what one is in reality including the good and the bad) could be a form of self-love.
" Immediately accept that those feelings are there and then explore them. Where did these feelings come from? Was there a situation that led to this conclusion? you know all the psych stuff."
^ Yes exactly, this is a philosophical approach. This is touching on why I was interested in this issue in the first place, to determine the fine lines where the “love yourself” idea separates from being either childish platitude or some form or another of narcissism but rather does indicate something meaningful and philosophical. Tracing the reasons for why we think and feel the way we do, including about our errors and incorrect or harmful impulses is essential if one wishes to philosophize. Doing that can also be called psych, yeah. A proper psychologist would certainly be to some degree also a philosopher.
“…trying to integrate…”
^ Precisely. Integration across the spaces, distances and divisions within oneself is also essential.
The idea of self-hate is also interesting and should be phenomenologically broken down to see all the different ways this has meaning. But I’m not going to do that here. I just think that narcissism cannot be reduced to self-hate, although certainly some people who act or think or emote narcissistically probably have a decent amount of self-hate that they can’t get rid of. I think self-hate is probably more so a kind of pain directed at oneself due to past failures, shames, and traumas.
Anyways thanks for the response 
Not what you said last night ;^)
“Rodjewels” wink wink, nudge nudge
This is a good summary of the idea you were getting at, and I somewhat agree with this. I think some narcissists can be accurately described in this way. I also think there exist other people who could be called narcissistic to whom this doesn’t exactly apply, because they may indeed have quite a bit of self-knowledge and really do see themselves positively. They might not need to brag about themselves, for instance think of a very successful person, a CEO billionaire for example. That person may have built up an entire company from the ground and succeeded tremendously in life. This person is undoubtedly very intelligent, brilliant, perceptive, driven. They might feel no need to toot their own horn or punish others for not praising them, because such things are childish and unnecessary when you have already proven and demonstrated your superiority in reality in a way that everyone can see. Like, your name in huge gold letters on the top of a skyscraper seems like a pretty clear signal “I succeeded”.
For such a person, they might indeed become petty narcissistic as you describe, but then again due to their higher intelligence they might avoid that and simply know they are awesome. Maybe they are really a more humble or introverted, empathetic personality type who just happened to be very intelligent, driven to success and in the right places at the right times. Now they own a billion dollars and run a huge company. They know they are awesome, but they are also aware of their flaws. They see no need to brag or to seek undo praise from others. They have a very positive image of themselves, enjoy being who they are, “love themself” and don’t have any extreme degree of self-hatreds but rather are quite comfortable with who and what they are. Maybe they use a lot of their money to do good. You might not call that person a narcissist, but what if you learned they avoid other people because they find them tedious, boring, superficial? What if they don’t date because others can’t really stimulate or interest them and they prefer to be alone. Maybe they stare in the mirror at their perfect body, looking around at their perfect mansion and piles of cash and think how awesome they are, how good looking they are. Maybe that isn’t fully Narcissus mode but perhaps like 50% there. I don’t know, just exploring the fact that it’s possible there are people like that out there. We shouldn’t put the category of narcissism into so tiny a box that it only includes petty or superficial, non-self-knowing types of narcissism.
I was joking previously about “Rodjewels” but had an even funnier follow up. Oh well.
Guess I’ll also not bother replying to someone who has me blocked. And isn’t talking to me. Even indirectly. MagsJ is so right.
Over & out!
That fits with what I’m saying: need admitration, no empathy. Behavior is a reactions to feelings of rejection and unworthiness. Person does not admit weaknesses.
In contrast with most people who have self-hate who tend to have empathy and admit weaknesses. Heck, may even invent weaknesses about themselves, since they judge themselves negatively and are conscious of this.
No, it is difficult to treat because the person can’t see their faults as faults. They blind themselves to their imperfections (or interpreting them as imperfect) by believing/maintaining their preferred self-image.
For example.
A mass murderer may blind themselves from the evilness of their acts by the interpretation that they are ridding the world of so many ills. How Hitler “solved” the Jewish problem. How all in the abortion industrial machine “solve” the …. I mean …. guhhhh … baby problem??? Imagine actually looking in the mirror. Sadness forever.
Fast forward please.
I’m feeling like the idea of self-hate isn’t useful and we should start referring to this in another way. Self-hate seems to aim at a set of feelings and actions that stem from anger, maybe suppressed or redirected anger from past traumas, or simply at one’s own inadequacies and failures that are too painful to come face to face with so one takes out that anger on others or upon oneself in self-destructive ways.
Maybe some people really do “hate themselves” although it’s hard for me to imagine what that would really mean. Are they suicidal, do they think they are ugly and unworthy? Maybe that’s just depression or boredom or body dysmorphia. I think there are always more specific causes underneath that should be identified instead of covered over with the blanket term “self-hate”. That that may go for self-love too, perhaps that is also a blank term falsely covering over and concealing deeper more precise and varied causes. As a philosopher I want to get to those more specific causes and refer to these phenomena in those more accurate ways, rather than relying on more generalized blanket terms that appear to explain something but really only indirectly refer to or weakly relate by some linguistic provenance only to the real issues at hand.
Start over. Are they depressed? Are they bored? Do they have body dysmorphia? Maybe that’s just….
…stemming from alienation from wholeness (person=person, self=other)…
And maybe they ARE ugly. Start over.
I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with or what this has to do with my sense of self-love, self-acceptance, self-hate are about. In any case the narcissist can’t bear to look at themselves. Any criticism or seeming criticism triggers their awareness of their own self-hatred, which seems endless and unsolvable. So, others are to blame.
That’s different from someone who hates themselves but has this close and often in consciousness. Who has many judgments of themselves - that they are stupid or pathetic and these thoughts arise and are noticed.
Humanize wondered when self-loving might slide into narcissism, though he was thinking in the more everyday sense, I now know. I actually think the every day sense is a kind of overcompensation for a poor self-image.
Self-acceptance is not a kind of ongoing excuse to be mean to people. Or to think one is great, perdiod, though I think it would include acknowledging to oneself those thigns one is good or great at. I don’t think it’s narcissism for Messi to think he’s a great football player. If this means he craps on people in stores, he has a problem, but being an asshole is a separate problem. They need not be connected. One can generally feel good about what one does and what one does as a parent, professional, spouse, for example, without thinking this means you can treat people poorly.
The narcissist, either the clinical version, or just someone who is often a pompous ass or an entitlted person is adding something to self-love/acceptance. And perhaps they can only accept themselves if they think they are better than other people. (which would be some degree of narcissism iop.)
Sure, people can do that. I’m neither excusing such behavior nor calling such things self-love and self-acceptance.
I’m certainly not denying that some people are horrible.
I’m not quite sure what you are reacting to in my posts or how you are interpreting things. Perhaps if you could specifically quote something I say, then explain that it entails X or justifes Y and those are false or bad, I would understand what you mean.
I think this can be worthwhile, getting more specific. But I think self-hatred is widespread, but at various degrees. IOW its occurrances can’t all be assigned clinical forms. I think we can all be hard on ourselves in toxic ways in some facet of our lives. Professionally for some, in the realm of romance and sex for others. Teenagers for all sorts of things, without any real way to priortize and be objective about what I am calling self-hatred. I am not saying everyone should this term, but I find it useful. Part of the reason I use it is because I think a lot of belief systems assume we have to relate to ourselves in what I consider toxic ways that I want to batch under self-hatred. I want to highlight provocatively - thought I think also accurately. I could go more into that but the guilt and shame that have come through religions but presented as being loving or good, I would want to highlight as not that at all. But it isn’t limited to religoius moral systems and attitudes. Not at all.
GF, I don’t disagree with anything you said in this last post/reply to me. Carry on.
Great. I mean, of course you can disagree with me and it can be great, but I was puzzled about what was going on and now I am less so.
…ain’t nothin wrong wit that!
Once we love ourselves, we are open to loving others… anything less is… perverse.
Y’all sound like Ayn Rand saying that selfishness is a virtue.
I’m over here like in the Princess Bride saying “I don’t think that word means what you think it means.”
I can’t find the word ‘selfishness’ in this thread except in your last post here. Who sounds like Ayn Rand?
Which word?
Narcissism in MagsJ’s quote of Hum: Exploring the idea of "loving yourself" - #34 by MagsJ
I punt back to this: Exploring the idea of "loving yourself" - #18 by Ichthus77
or… love (in MagsJ’s reply to Hum).
I punt back to this: Exploring the idea of "loving yourself" - #21 by Ichthus77
So, ‘ya’ll’ is addressing MagsJ?
Loving yourself is narcissism and necessarily selfish?
You can’t love yourself and feel empathy?
This is one of the punts. Could you explain what that has to do with selfishness since I don’t see that mentioned in that post?
Are you wanting me to make distinctions because that feels good to you when I do that? What question are you really asking here?
Which one do you like better?
A) At least two profiles, possibly more/all (besides mine), in this conversation/forum are sock puppets of one person (besides me).
B) At least two profiles (possibly more/all (besides mine), are being used in a very “musical chairs” fashion by at least two people, possibly more (besides me).
C) I was not referring to your profile, unless there is something that your profile said that was similar to what the profiles MagsJ or Humanize said in the afore referenced reply.
Y’all.
I was trying to find out who you thought was saying something specific. And yes, trying to see if ‘y’all’ referred to me, which you answered, sort of.
I was being more specific with my question, since it seemed clear it was referring to at least Mags, but I wasn’t sure if it was referring to others. I also couldn’t see anywhere directly what you were saying a person or people were asserting.
I don’t know anything about the sockpuppet issue. I’m certainly not using my real name, but I’m not anyone else here.
So,…
Is loving yourself narcissism and necessarily selfish?
Can you love yourself and feel empathy?