Exploring the idea of "loving yourself"

At what point does loving oneself become narcissism? For example it’s common today for people to say things like “practice self-love” or “it’s important to love yourself”. I used to be confused by this, as to me it seemed like nothing but a shallow platitude bordering on encouraging and normalizing shades of narcissistic behavior and attitude. Or just silly childish happy-feeling for its own sake or to push away less comfortable realities. But, the more I think about it, there is something true and valuable about this idea.

Self-love seems more like confidence in who and what you are, acceptance of oneself. Even coming into contact with Know Thyself at certain points. Or perhaps there are tectonic threads and channels connecting these and flowing meaning back and forth, “pumping blood like sanguine lexicons” to borrow a phrase from a certain poet.

To what extent does loving oneself mean willful ignorance of one’s failures and putting on rose-colored glasses when viewing oneself in the mirror? Or the confidence and optimism for a better future for oneself that pushes us toward success, making our own luck and becoming ‘better versions of ourselves’?

It’s easy to lump this idea into a single camp and leave it there, on either side of the issue. Pro or con, like or hate it. But simple reactions like that only reveal our own personal motives and perspectives and largely fail to illuminate the issue itself.

The one part of this idea I do want to explore most deeply is the idea of self-acceptance in terms of both knowing oneself but more critically not having negative, critical or harmful attitudes and actions toward oneself or at best trying to moderate these away from extremes and reserving actual harm to more limited cases in which the benefits much more outweigh the harms at least in the sense of what psychologists call cognitive discounting (discounting or undervaluing the long-term harm of actions like smoking or extreme drinking because the negative effects are far off in the future while the benefits are right here in the present).

In what ways can approaching this idea of self-love in a positive sense for oneself be a way to increase self-understanding and reduce self-harms? It seems obvious on the surface, sure. But my concern is that the idea of self-love by itself doesn’t seem to be sufficient, in my opinion and based on what I am seeing so far, to really lead to any level of self-understanding and self-acceptance beyond a more surface level that may already exist as a prerequisite condition for holding a positive attitude and experience toward the phenomenon of self-love in the first place. In other words, what is the philosophical significance of self-love especially with respect to developing substantially greater and authentic self-understanding and self-acceptance, in so far as we can argue these are worth developing, again authentically, as for instance when doing so doesn’t conflict with other psychological-personal or phenomenological metaphysical needs, tasks and stages we may happen to be at and which may be ranked more favorably in a personal or even more objective value-hierarchy even in terms of what could be seen as more narcissisic inclinations? That question also splits narcissism between the low and high ends, a useful move I think in terms of exploring this topic.

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So… you want to maintain self-love despite cognitive discounting?

Am I hearing you correctly?

Loving yourself in this situation is blatantly obvious: kill the cognitive discounting.

You answered your own question in a very “I can’t bring myself to say this” way.

You can do this. Because all us f***ing a$$holes hate/love you too. Don’t forget that.

Extension of Carleas’ thread?

I have you blocked, but I feel dumb for actually viewing your post here. Thanks at least for confirming why I have you blocked. I don’t plan on viewing your posts anymore but thanks for, er I guess from your point of view, contributing… something. lol.

It’s no longer possible for me to stoop so low, is my point. Those days are over. It’s nothing personal, I don’t hate you. I am sure you are a nice guy IRL, or are good to puppies, or whatever

Yeah right. You posted in two other places indirectly to me just to be a d***. I ignored those. Without blocking you.

It’s called impulse control, toots.

This indeed is going to be a nice exploration :slightly_smiling_face:
While reading once a self help type of book the author thundered “ you should learn to reward yourself “ ! I never had worked on such an idea before. Who doesn’t love, loving himself ! I do very much but how much , when I do , how I do , all these ideas were so far very abstract , bordering to being vague . Many times I can’t distinguish whether I love myself or flatter and flirt with myself . The constant chatter that goes on in the mind mostly revolves round self elation, flattery and flirting with Self . Though some of the dreams are extremely romantic, ecstatic and elating that too can’t be called as self loving . After rejecting all such feel good situation we have to embark upon journey to find ways and means for self loving !

Narcissism isn’t self-love, but it is a radical prioritization of seeking to love oneself at the expense of oneself and others. Narcissists are walking about with montrous balls of shame and self-hate, and they punish anyone and anything that doesn’t help them suppress their awareness of this. To suppress their awareness of this they blame others - and if you look at the details of their blame you can see that it is mainly projections. They aren’t actually dealing with their feelings and loving them, so to speak.

Personally I find it easy to think it terms of self-acceptance. That I can accept my feelings and that I have a dark side. I think there is an ability to go into cognitive dissonance having to do with self-image, being right, the possibility that one has made errors or worse, the presence of emotions that often get called negative. So, the abscence to movement towards the absence of self-hate.

The narcissist can’t do these things. They can’t approach where they actually are, what they actually feel, what they have done, what they actually feel about themselves. And they drag other people into this ecosystem.

Other people who have self-hate don’t necessarily at all deal with it in the narcissist manner. Of course it can affect interpersonal relationships, but they are much less likely to act as if others should be feeing their self-image (at their own expense) and much less likely to blame others for their own problems. They hate themselves, they know it, so if anything they often swing way to far the other way: they blame themselves, even for things that are not their fault. In a sense the narcissist is like the more normal person who hates themselves, but has added on top complete denial, and then makes others the source of the problem (on their limited conscious level). This is not self-love, since they are hiding huge portions of themselves from themselves. And they hate what they are hiding in others.

Sometimes narcissists end up this way because of horrible childhoods. But sometimes it seems this need not have happened.

I think the narcissist offers a way to distinguish between dangerous problematic models of the self and self love.

It’s not about having an incredibly story about oneself. I am great and special and this entitles me to dominate others and be fawned upon in ways I would never fawn upon others. In other words its not about the story one has that one tries to foist on oneself and others.

Self-love is about accepting one’s full self, where it is and then trying to integrate the damaged and confused portions of the self so that one is not harming oneself and others.

So, let’s say you notice yourself calling yourself stupid or evil. The idea is not to suppress this or run from it and pave it over. Immediately accept that those feelings are there and then explore them. Where did these feelings come from? Was there a situation that led to this conclusion? you know all the psych stuff. Perhaps at some point it was easier, for the kid version of you, to think you were an idiot, than to feel the anger at a parent, for example. If you get to that place then you accept that orginal anger. It may or may not be right, but accept that it was a coping mechanism, say, and keep exploring. On the way from self-hate to self-love or self-acceptance one can understand why earlier patterns came out of experience and temperment. In a sense you did your best and your solution was not as good as it could be, but you understand why you were there.

Psychopaths may feel terrible, but they are not plagued by self-hate. Narcissists are precisely not feeling into anything. They have an external focus for what is an intrapsychic problem - though in the past it may have been an interpersonal one.

This was pretty sloppy as I was pretty much thinking out loud. But it’s a first foray.

noice

or take credit/responsibility that isn’t theirs, then… if it blows up… blame the actual responsibles

Too many pronouns; can you please clarify?

Isn’t it, though? Aren’t “they” blinded to what they are hiding about themselves (what they hate in others) by this false narrative/story/image of themselves they expect others to adopt, and if others don’t & challenge it, others are the enemy?

What do you mean by “feel terrible”?

Well, I say ‘may’ because they tend to have weaker emotions than the rest of us. However a decent percentage have trouble with work and the law so they can end up with pretty shitty lives. The get frustrated and bored easily and this can lead to pretty aweful feelings. I was generally feeling around the issue of self-love while looking at people - narcissists since Humanize mentioned them - and psychopaths since they might seem like people who love themselves, perhaps more than others do. I’m not sure that the psychopaths lack of self-hate (and guilt and shame) ends up being self-love. I could have fleshed this out more.

People who merely have self-hate or lack self-acceptance, are not like narcissists. They don’t jump to blame others, they tend to blame themselves. They don’t demand that others feed their egos, though they may reach out for help.

Humanize, I think it was, was presenting a concern regarding being a narcissist, if one loves oneself. It’s a good issue to raise and also the issue of what self-love is. I understand the concern that if you have a postive view of yourself, you might end up being a narcissist.

But narcissists, in fact, don’t have a positive view of themselves. They are desperately tooting their own horns, punishing people for not praising and admiring them, even for merely questioning them. They don’t know themselves at all.

People with self-hate who are not narcissists experience their self-hate. They judge themselves and notice this. They are conscious of this. This means they are vastly less likely to force others to tow the line, because it wouldn’t help. They can’t use the narcissist tricks to hide the self-hatred and shame from themselves. Further they don’t lack empathy. If anything in a conflict they are more likely to blame themselves than try to get the other person to blame themselves unfairly.

So, if the self-hating person, which most people are to at least some small degree, starts having more sympathy for themselves, understand that self-hatred, for example, might have been an understandable coping pattern as a child but isn’t fair now - this doesn’t lead to narcissism. They continue to have empathy for others. And if you accept yourself you don’t have the narcissist need to control how others think about you. You can also take criticism.

The people who hate themselves and are not narcissists? No I don’t think they do foist a postive image of themselves on other people. They may try to hide their self-hatred and emphasize positive things they do, but they tend not to leave a wake of scarred people after them. They tend to beat themselves up. And when others get pissed off, they feel, at least partly, that those people are right and have noticed the same thigns they notice about themselves. Get pissed at a narcissist and they will be immediately dreaming of revenge. They will play the victim (though more often while expressing rage, except for covert narcissists). They will say that the other person is being cruel. If a narcissist, for example, mistreats their spouse, when the spouse finally responds with anger (or even fear) the narcissist will blame them. A person in self-hatred that they are to some degree aware of is much more likely to consider the anger others have, since it matches the self-image they have and are conscious of. It’s not necessarily at all a healthy pattern, but it does not cause the interpersonal damage that narcissists do.

Hm. This does not check out, on various levels, but… if I refer you to the DSM… it doesn’t either, so. I’ma bow out.

What parts don’t check out? And if you have access to the DSM, please include what they say that contradicts what I say.

Of course, there are other international models and expert-created models for narcissism, but I’m interested in hearing about what you think is off about my views?

Weylp. It doesn’t distinguish between psychopathy (see screenshot) & sociopathy, which it labels Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD). Then there are the other personality disorders (paranoid, schizoid, schizotypal, borderline, histrionic, avoidant, dependent, obsessive-compulsive, and narcissistic), which are hard to really distinguish from each other & stuff like actual schizophrenia, obsessive compulsive disorder, or the various bipolar disorders. It’s been quite a while since I thought about this stuff, but the “misdiagnosis” of certain disorders is due in part to the DSM not having a very good classification/taxonomy. There’s more I haven’t mentioned.

Scan this doc for “psychopathy”:

Here’s an excerpt (pasting it took out the formatting) from a paper on ASPD from 2020:

The diagnostic criteria in the DSM-V focus less on symptoms and more on longstanding problem behaviors stemming from childhood, when there was already evidence of conduct disorder. These “symptoms” cause distress in others, as opposed to most diagnoses that are made due to causing distress in the individual. A person with ASPD often does not know they have a mental illness – the term for this is anosognosia, or lack of insight (which is a symptom in many mental illnesses) (1, NAMI). After ruling out schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and substance use disorder, these “symptoms” are considered in diagnosing ASPD:

A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors, as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.

Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure.

Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.

Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults.

Reckless disregard for safety of self or others.

Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.

Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another. (2, DSM V)

Notice the symptoms do not include “not wanting to be around people”. The word “antisocial” does not mean “introverted”. And note that their behaviors do not have to have led to arrest, but merely have to have been grounds for arrest.


That said…. not everyone is down to diagnose, because it sticks a person with this feeling that they can’t do anything about it… which can either be an excuse they fall back on, or a cage they feel trapped in.

The tools you give them are the same tools you would give anyone… so the point of diagnosing is what?

But calling a spade a spade… saying “I’ve seen this pattern before, and this is how I’m responding” [eff the (mis)(un)diagnosis]… that’s a tool you shouldn’t just throw out.

Here’s narcissistic personality disorder from my prof Dr. Heise’s slides on personality disorders. I’m not sure I have permission to share this. I don’t have access to DSM V where I’m at. Although… I haven’t really looked for it … but anyway.

I’m not trying to do a differential diagnosis between all the personality disorders. I am trying to get at the difference between what might seem like self-love, in a narcissist, and what self-love actually is. I mentioned psychopaths, just for a little contrast. Yes, they don’t use the term anymore in the DSM, but if I use Antisocial Personality Disorder, then most people here won’t know what I’m talking about.

Well, if the DSM doesn’t have a good classification/taxonomy - and I think there are all sorts of problems with the DSM - then I can’t see any reason to try to match it’s taxonomy. I’m focused on the topic of loving yourself and I actually think narcissism offers a way to tease out what this actually means. Narcissism includes a denial of self-hate. Which is not self-love. I don’t need to deal with schizophrenia or the difference between sociopathy and psychopathy or the rest

There is unvocalize self-talk. Some people don’t notice this, but it can be heard in the mind. If that talk is especially harsh with some regularlity, that’s what I would call self-hate. This doesn’t entail that they only hate themselves, but that self-hate is present. So, the messages could be things like: when one makes a mistake, the voice or even the person says, possibly out loud; ‘I am such an idiot’ perhaps over and over. In break up or a minor rejection the self-talk is things like: ‘She’s right to not want to be with me: I’m pathetic’. ‘No one will ever love something like me.’

The point is not that any self-critical thing said out loud or internally said or heard is self-hating. I think regret and acknowledging mistakes is of course part of a healthy self- and other- relation. But at some arbritrary threshhold when the severity of the self-talk and the frequency reaches a certain point - and does not fit the circumstances well - we are dealing with self-hate.

It doesn’t necessarily have to be in the form of self-talk - though I think it frequently his, even if the person is only slightly aware of it. It could also be negative images of the self and likely other forms also.