You can’t have both, it is either one or the other.
Freedom is a construct or myth of society. In reality nothing is free and all that exists is dependent on somthing else in some way in order to survive.
Freedom is a beautiful lie constructed to install fear into individuals for manipulation and control so that people will give up a part of themselves in laboring for others in the name of the myth that is called freedom.
In reality freedom has never existed on this earth ever and never will.
Freedom: “The condition of being free of restraints.” Society puts many restraints on the individual.
Yes freedom in society is a myth it does not exist for the many, only the few at the top of the pyramid (called society) have freedom. The many are just serfs despite them thinking they have freedom. Society and freedom cannot coexist. In society most are slaves. The perceived societal freedom is the illusion of choice. Choices produced and put into place before your birth. A working class child has two choices either works or starve. Work/labor becomes associated with freedom. People must work in order to have freedom or they will end up homeless, dead or in prison.
In reality everything is free without society, things become unfree when man turns things into commodities and he could only do this through the power of society. Air is free, but it is only free because man has not learned to control it yet. When he does he will turn it into a commodity and sell it.
How about before the birth of society/civilizations?
In ancient times people used to and believed they working and building for the gods, in modern times?
And without society existence and nature is full of restraints too. Freedom does not exist.
Freedom is a elaborate illusion.
Even those on top are not free as they are slaves to their various responsibilities and ambitions.
I’ll agree that there exists many who are more restrained than others but this does nothing in describing your myth of freedom as being real.
Sure, choice is another big illusion. Can’t disagree with you there.
Yes that is obvious.
Air isn’t free. Air exists by a bunch of chemicals in the atmosphere that it is dependent on in order to exist.
Without these essential chemicals there is no air. I suppose you meant to say that breathing air is free but we couldn’t breathe air either without a vast asortment of dependencies.
There is no freedom in existence. There are dependencies, confinements, restraints and futile exchanges everywhere.
Do you truely believe that beyond society amongst nature and existence there are no restraints or confinements?
I hope you don’t…
The restraints of nature and and existence are more favorable than the restraints of society.
Everyone would rather be one of them(the illusion we can all be at the top) than one of the dull masses.
I never intended to proof or disproof the existence of freedom. We can define freedom as the degree of restraints. The less restraints the more freedom, the more restraints the less freedom.
Natural freedom, contains the restraints of nature and existence. The restraints of natural freedom are part of life. Man tries to free himself from the the restraints of nature and existence through technology and science but ends ups creating Societal freedom, which contains the restraints man creates and his institutions.
I don’t disagree because life is interdependent. Every life depends on another life for something. Man depends on plant life for food. Plant life depend on animal waste for food. Mutual relationships.
Freedom is the degree of restraints.
I don’t but like I said above the restraints of nature and and existence are more favorable than the restraints of society.
How?
Just another delusional entrapment.
I’ll give you this…Some people are less restrained than others but to call that freedom is beyond me in that nothing is free from all restraints.
What is freedom?
Mankind assumes that it can free itself from the restraints of nature and existence but for the most part finds it to be a futile exchange instead trading in one natural restraint for a more crueler artificial restraint of it’s own making.
Humanity is nothing but folly and mass stupidity.
Then you admit that freedom doesn’t exist but instead there only exists the restraints of all the millions of interdependencies that exist all throughout life.
You still haven’t told me what freedom is.
How exactly?
Any of you guys read this before?
You answered that yourself.
“Mankind assumes that it can free itself from the restraints of nature and existence but for the most part finds it to be a futile exchange instead trading in one natural restraint for a more crueler artificial restraint of it’s own making.”
Freedom is lack of restraints. A mouse in a cage is less free than a wild mouse becuase the
mouse in the cage is more restrained than the wild mouse. This is freedom.
I agree, total freedom (freedom from all restraints) does not exist. Men will always
be restrained by something. Some restraints are more crueler than others. Natural restraints are less crueler than societal restraints but it seems like most men prefer the cruel restraints of society either through freewill or delusion.
What is freedom to you?
Why not just say that one person has less restraints than another?
Why use this misleading word known as freedom in discussion?
While I agree with the analogy that one is less restrained than the other how that equals your elaborate word freedom I find to be un-understandable.
An elaborate illusion used in mind control.
If it’s an illusion, did someone freely create it? If control exists, and is used intentionally against our minds, then who’s responsible for the intention? No one if nothing’s free. Help me out here.
Perhaps one was determined to create it in order to install a mass pandemonium within society in order to control others to make new constraints through that of other people’s own hysteria or fears on life.
As I said I view the illusion of freedom to be nothing more than a elaborate illusion at mind control and since humanity as a whole is determined in a way of surviving by conquering or enslaving others to say that a person was determined to create this illusion for mass control of society would not be too far off from realism.
So you’ve been to the boundaries of the universe, measured everything, and come to the empirical conclusion that things are all explainable with mathematics? Finite mathematics?
I wouldn’t be so bold to say that but I do try to understand things in this finite universe with all the biological limitations any organism has which does include our own species.
Freedom is the word we use to describe those who are less restrained than others.
Are you free? Are you restrained? asks the same thing.
Interesting.
You use the misleading word freedom. I instead speak of a person as being less or more restrained.
There is nothing else to say in this conversation.
It is. Watch a political campaign where politicians speak of freedom through that of politics. Read between the lines.
Clearly it is. Why do you consider the word freedom misleading when you understand what it represents/describe?
Because the word freedom does nothing other than explain a state of a person or organism being less contained and restrained.
Freedom is a misleading illusive word in the way it is used because often enough people try to make it sound like it is more than it is actually is without ever explaining.