Freud vs Deleuze - Sadism and Masochism

According to Freud, masochism is a response to sadism; it’s sadism turned on oneself due to guilt, guilt over one’s sadistic nature.
According to Freud, sadism is primary.

According to Deleuze, sadism is not primary, but rather reactionary - the response to masochism, a sort of hyper-masculine rebellion against it.
He set out to refute Freud’s interpretation of sadism and masochism.

It’s important to keep in mind that both of these fellows were of polar opposite psychological dispositions;

Freud was very phallogocentric; penis over the pussy.

Deleuze was gynocentric; pussy over penis.

Deleuze created a concept called “Rhizomes”, which was opposed to the “arborescent” model (tree-like, sky-scraper-like, phallus-like).
Rhizomes grow amorphously, scattered, flat, unlike the arborescent, which grows upward, like a penis. The “rhizome”, therefore, is akin to
a vagina; flat, dispersed, opposed to the “arborescent”. Deleuze highly preferred the rhizomatic system over the arborescent.

One’s psychology or bias definitely ties into this.

Nobody is immune to this, but honestly I think Deleuze was wrong and simply responded to Freud’s interpretation of sadism and masochism out of
a sort of knee-jerk reaction to the “arborescent” underpinnings of it.

My take:

I agree with Freud. People start out sadistic. From the earliest years of a human’s life, in childhood, kids will stomp on ant hoardes, throw rocks at deers, torture animals, smash and destroy things, etc. How often do you see little kids slitting their own wrists for pleasure?

Sadism is primary. Masochism is a response to sadism; masochism is the corollary of the child’s guilt, when he develops a conscience via
moralistic inculcation telling him that his actions are evil/wrong and that he should be ashamed.
The guilt causes the sadistic impulse to turn inward on one’s self as a punishment for being guilty of “immorality”.

I propose a third alternative.a true sadistic act is morally oriented, it exists in the moral sphere. a child, on the other hand, displays acts that are interpreted as sadistic only by someone who has a working understanding of what sadistic means. a child does not have this.so, his acts can’t be called sadistic.

acting sadistically, then, means to have a working understanding of what the word means. to enjoy causing another to experience pain.this notion is already morally embeddedand one does not by default want to.

Instead a kind of vengeance is expressed in the sadistic act, making it reactionary; wanting to cause pain because one feels wronged.

I’m saying people do not want to cause someone else pain just for the sake of doing so. there is always an underlying motive, whether known or not, for wanting to cause someone pain. in any case I think sadism is purely reactionary. it is a sublimating act of anger, and to be angered means to feel offended. To feel offended is to have a certain weakness. hence, the reactionary act.

Also, a key point: Deleuze saw sadism, from a symbolic point of view and from the point of view of a male sadist, as father to daughter. Father as the sadist. From a male masochist point of view, it’s mother to son. Mother as sadist, the dominatrix. Compound this with the OP and it begins to make more sense.

Sadism only appears primary, because of the cause and effect relationship it has on masochism.

However, Masochism is the main agent, triggered by several causes, sadism is only one of them. For example, an accidental mistake could cause guilty masochism.

Whether or not masochism can trigger sadism is clear…it can…one may wish to spread one’s pain to others, and view it as a kind of generosity.

I agree with the OP for the most part.

Sadism is a result of the child’s awakening to its own power.
Some here claim that power is indifference, I disagree.
Indifference is usually proportional to power and a consequence of it, because when we are powerful we are indifferent to that which is less powerful because it poses no threat to us.
But the essence of power is an ability to affect the other, both physically and intellectually.

Children then explore this power and test its limits others, usually starting with the weakest, like ants, from which some humans move on to smaller animals and eventually to humans.

I think that masculine sexuality underlies sadism - the man is required by his sexual role to be dominant, which is to say powerful and aggressive - both towards other males, and the female whom he has to penetrate.
Masochism would be more closely tied to female sexual disposition because the female has to tolerate the penetration of the male and enjoy it, and then proceed to care for and ween the needy offspring.
Therefore, for masculine entities sadism is primary, while for feminine entities masochism is primary.

Genetically/Internally:

According to Freud, our physical apparatus consists of genetic urges/drives.
We seek to fulfill the need of those drives because of the in-built pleasure principle - fulfillment of those drives releases surplus energies and thus provides us with pleasure, a sort of a relief.
The pleasure principle weighs in potential costs (suffering) and reward (pleasure).
These genetic urges/drives manifest themselves as representatives of urges/drives in the unconscious part of our psyche.
The representatives consist of sensory images we associate with the fulfillment of the drive/urge and the release of energy. For example, an image of a beautiful woman in case of a sexual drive.
These sensory images always strive to break through the subconscious to the conscious part of our psyche.

This is where genetics/what is internal to us begin to interact with the environment, the external:

Our subconsciousness is an intermediate stage between unconscious and conscious self and consists of various stages of censorship.
Censorship is socially conditioned and not something that is innate to human beings.
Just taking food and eating it might provide us with pleasure, but if we stole that food from somebody else we will probably experience retribution by the social group and thus the suffering/displeasure would overweigh the pleasure.
This is why the pleasure principle also has to take into account external factors - the social environment, whatever it may be, and this is the function of censorship.
Censorship determines which sensory images are allowed to enter our consciousness, and which ones aren’t based on whether they are socially permissible or not.
Censorship is socially conditioned and not something that is innate to human beings.

This results in self-repression of certain behaviors and drives that are deemed shameful due to possible social repercussions.
However, because the censorship isn’t absolutely perfect, it can be partially tricked and some drives might simply change form to accommodate censorship and manifest themselves in our consciousness in socially permitted ways.
For example somebody who is a necrophiliac probably won’t go to a graveyard to dig corpses and fuck them, but he might become a mortician so he can be around corpses and interact with them in a socially acceptable manner.
He/she might even live their entire life not knowing why they are morticians and that they are necrophiles, if they possess little self-awareness.

Yes. What you’re talking about is socially caused masochism and it is a defense mechanism.
All defense mechanisms involve repression of some sort, in fact, Freud sometimes used the terms ‘defense mechanism’ and ‘repression’ interchangeably.

Sadistic personalities may turn masochistic and redirect their urge to cause pain in the other to causing pain to themselves because we are indoctrinated from an early age that causing pain on others is morally wrong, so there is nobody left to cause pain to but ourselves.
It also may be that masochism is just an indirect form of sadism.
For example, if we feel animosity towards our parents and desire to hurt them, we might choose to injure ourselves instead and since our parents care about us we are, in a sense, hurting them too.

On KT the terms gene and meme are used to describe this conflict between our natural, genetic, internal desires and the environment of social norms, rules and doctrine (memetic)

At that stage the child’s use of wanton force is premoral and not really sadistic. The child’s intent is to experiment with his power, not to necessarily hurt something. Hurting something might be a consequence of this but it can’t be a motivating feature until the child learns how to feel morally wronged. Without feeling morally wronged one cannot be sadistic… unless they are role playing. As I explained, the default condition is not one of offensiveness to the ‘Other’ but rather a cautious neutrality. To cause someone else pain for the sake of it (without being an act of vengeance, defense or military offenseive) is too costly, requires effort, and can make you enemies. None of these are efficient stratagies so any sadistic element in the genealogy would be suppressed or eliminated… evolved out of.

But there is a difference between feeling joy at the exercise of one’s power which incidentally hurts another, and feeling joy at the exercise of one’s power at hurting another.

I would say damage, frustration, lack of outlet, being suppressed and controlled
are primary.
Then sadism and masochism - which are not muturally exclusive - are patterns in response to original treatment.

One can be sadistic in one area and masochistic in others. Each pattern allows one to have one’s cake and eat it too, though in not the same way. (they are not great solutions to the root problems, but they are attempts to solve them)

But before these compromise solutions their is some serious disruptions of the organism’s natural life energy and expression.

Rhizomes can be a like a lot of penis, since they send shoots up. Or to put it another way, Deleuze is trying to decentralize the self. Allow for anything. I like him as a contrast to secular monoselfisms. IOW he serves a nice contrast to the fascism inherent in those. But he ends up worshipping this colony self with no center, which is not a solution.

I disagree; sadism is simply pleasure derived from inflicting violence on others.
Many children, especially at a very young age, are unaware of morality; yet they can still derive pleasure from doing violence to others.

Also, yes, sadism can be a response to masochism; but this does not refute the primary nature of sadism.

An example:

Let’s say that my act of hitting someone in the face represents sadism. Now, someone comes along and hits me in the face; let’s have this represent masochism.
I, in return, decide to hit this person in the face, who hit me; let’s consider this the sadistic response to masochism. However, does this refute the primary nature of sadism? No. Sadism was primary, masochism was secondary. And a sadistic act was the counter-response to a masochistic response. I started out hitting someone in the face, someone else came along and hit me, and I responded to this by hitting them back. But my act of hitting someone in the face, the sadism, was the initial act, the primary one.

Sadism is still primary.

Also, yes, sadism is motivated by something. I’d say it’s a combination of extreme pride, contempt/hatred for others, and a strong desire to exercise one’s powers.

This all reminds me of a passage you fellas might enjoy.