Fugitive

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
1

Somebody in another thread seemed to think the bible condones slavery and I had to point out the whole book of Philemon in the bible pleads mercy for a runaway slave, and that the bible calls slavetraders evil.
Also, Moses once went ballistic and killed an Egyptian foreman who was mistreating a slave, here’s a piece I wrote about it -

FUGITIVE by Mick
MOSES (to Egyptian foreman) - “Hey mister, maybe you’d like to stop beating up that poor slave and try me on fer size?”
EGYPTIAN - “You talk mighty big mister, but can you walk the walk?”
MOSES - “Your move”…
Bam!..Bam!..Bam!..Bam!
EGYPTIAN (dying) “ugh…i’ll get a good nights sleep tonight…”
ONLOOKER - “Hey Mose you’d better git outta town real fast, Pharoahs gonna be comin after yer fer sure”…
MOSES - “I know it old-timer, I’m a-headin fer them thar hills”
PHAROAH (on hearing the news) “Looks like we got ourselves a fugitive…Average foot speed over uneven ground, barring injury, is four miles an hour. That gives us a radius of six miles. What I want out of each and everyone of you is a hard target search of every residence, warehouse, farmhouse, hen house, outhouse and doghouse in that area.
Go get him!”

“One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. Glancing this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand” (Exodus 2:11)

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While the Bible may cry for the mercy of that one slave, what about these cherry-picked quotes:

When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property. (Exod. 21:20-21)

If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out by himself. (Exodus 21:1-4)

And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee.And when thou sendest him out free from thee, thou shalt not let him go away empty: Thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy floor, and out of thy winepress: of that wherewith the LORD thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him. (Deuteronomy 15:12-18)

And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. (Exodus 21:7)

Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. (Leviticus 25:44-46)

After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him: Either his uncle, or his uncle’s son, may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself. And he shall reckon with him that bought him from the year that he was sold to him unto the year of jubilee: and the price of his sale shall be according unto the number of years, according to the time of an hired servant shall it be with him. (Leviticus 25:48-53)

Or what about Jesus’ tacit acceptance of slavery as suggested by:

Who then is the faithful and wise slave, whom his master has put in charge of his household, to give the other slaves their allowance of food at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom his master will find at work when he arrives. (Matt. 24:45-46)

A disciple is not above the teacher, nor a slave above the master (Matt. 10:24)

And what about Paul?

Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among those who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain. (1Tim. 6:1-5)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. (Eph. 6:5-6)

Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior. (Titus 2:9-10)

Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God’s approval. (1Pet. 2:18-29)

While Jesus, that crazy nice guy, never comes out in favour of slavery, he does aknowledge its existence without stopping to say, “Oh, by the way, it’d be great if people stopped owning other people.” So there is no repeal of the existing slavery laws established in the Old Testament from Jesus. On the other hand, Paul talks a fair amount about slavery and goes so far as to put it in a very positive light – strengthening the OT’s position on slavery rather than weakening it.

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Xunzian quote - While the Bible may cry for the mercy of that one slave, what about these cherry-picked quotes:
"When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property. (Exod. 21:20-21) etc etc…

Mate do yourself a favour and get your time machine fixed, you’re stuck in the ancient Old Testament :slight_smile:
Jesus trashed all that harshness and gave us the final Directors Cut update -
He said “It was said ‘eye for eye,tooth for tooth’ but I say turn the other cheek” (Matt 5:38/39)
And people quickly gladly cottoned on -“Jesus saved you from the empty way of life handed you by your forefathers” (1 Pet 1:18 )
“In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.” (Acts 17:30)
“Through Jesus we are saved,and not through Moses” (Acts 13:39)
“The law brought us to Christ like a schoolmaster,but now through Christ we are not under that schoolmaster” (Gal 3:22-25)
“The covenant of Jesus is superior to the old one” (Heb 8:6-13)
“Jesus is worthy of more honour than Moses” (Heb 3:3)
“We serve in the new way of the spirit,not in the old way of the written code” (Rom 7:6)
“The epistle of Christ,written not in stone,but in the heart” (2 Cor 3:3)
“The first covenant had rules of worship,but Jesus’s rules are not man-made” (Heb 9:1-15)
“The law was given by Moses,but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ” (John 1:17)
“The veil covers the old covenant,but is removed by Jesus” (2 Cor 3:12)
“Preach the unsearchable riches of Christ” (Eph 3:8/9)
“Jesus gives us all we need for life” (2 Pet 1:3)
“Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith” (Heb 12:2)

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Two Questions:

  1. Then how do you feel about homosexuality?

The main reason why I’ve heard that the sexual passages of Leviticus still apply is because 1) Jesus never says not to obey them and 2) they are, if anything, strengthened in the Letters. How is this situation different?

  1. How do you explain the letters section that I posted, as well as Jesus’ tacit acceptance of slavery?

Just curious. Personally, I don’t think Jesus would approve of slavery, but the scriptures definately make such an interpretation possible.

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Xunzian quote - how do you feel about homosexuality?
…How do you explain the letters section that I posted, as well as Jesus’ tacit acceptance of slavery?

Chill dood :slight_smile:
Sure,Jesus left all the strict Old Testament laws in place -
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them” (Matt 5:17)
[size=150]BUT[/size] and its a big but - he showed us how to apply or even overule those rules with enlightened commonsense.
“It was said ‘eye for eye,tooth for tooth’ but I say turn the other cheek” (Matt 5:38/39)
Classic example is when the mob dragged an adulteress to him and asked him to rubberstamp her execution, and he told them “on yer bikes”…
Here’s what happened, lets call her Molly -

MOLLY by Mick
Molly grew up in orphanages never knowing who her mother and father were apart from rumours about a prostitute and a Roman soldier,and by her teens she was a sad lonely little girl.
But then she discovered men liked her and bought her presents and gave her money if she smiled at them and let them love her, and it made her feel good and wanted, even if they went back to their wives afterwards…
She grew into womanhood and still liked being loved by men,but wished she could meet one who wanted to marry her and stay with her for the rest of her life, but by now her bad reputation made a lot of single men stay clear of her.
Eventually people grew tired of her and her ways, so a mob led by the snooty priestly classes kicked down her door and dragged her off by the hair to kill her with stones.
As they pulled her through the streets, people came out to jeer at her, calling her all sorts of names and punching and slapping her, but she refused to give them the satisfaction of breaking down in tears even though her lip trembled and she could feel the blood draining from her face in fear. “I’ve never cried in my life and i’m not going to start now” she thought.
“But where are all the men who loved me?” she wondered, “why won’t one of them rescue me?”
However no-one came forward and the painful dragging through the streets continued. She felt utterly alone and sick to the stomach and wanted to cry out to the mum and dad she’d never known, but realised there was no-one to help her, so in her total despair she muttered under her breath “Oh God, please help me”…
More slaps across the head from the mob knocked her near senseless, and when she recovered her wits she found they’d thrown her on the ground at the feet of a man who she recognised as the young carpenter Jesus from Nazareth.The mob were standing around her with stones in their hands ready to kill her.
“Alright” one of them said to the young prophet, “The Old Law tells us that we must stone adulteresses to death, can you please confirm that to make it all legal and above board?”
“Sure” said the young man, “let whoever’s perfect among you throw the first stone”
Hearing this, they dropped their stones and slunk off in shame.
Then Jesus bent down and hugged Molly close to him in an embrace of such beautiful loving tenderness that she’d never experienced from any man before, and she began crying her eyes out on his shoulder.
“I know you won’t want a trollop like me” she sobbed, “but I don’t ever want to be on my own again…”
“You won’t be” he softly whispered in her ear, “whoever comes to me I’ll never turn away, I’ll be with you always til the end of the world”

(John ch 8 -Jesus said “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”
At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there")

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Xunzian quote - how do you feel about homosexuality?

Like this :wink: -
GAYS by Mick
I like gays and lesbians and transexuals/transvestites,as the world would be a drabber place without 'em, in fact i think God showed his sense of humour by putting them in the world to send stuffy fundie xtians bananas :slight_smile:
Here’s a contender I hope to see become Archbishop of Canterbury one day -
bbc.co.uk/oxford/stage/2003/ … view.shtml
We’re all sinners in one way or another, for example motorists are killing asthmatic kids, just look at any church car park. (i don’t drive)
Gays lesbians and trannies are no better or worse than anybody else and will have to take their chances on Judgement Day along with the rest of us…

7

most rationale thing I have heard from you.

8

Bravo!

I might not agree with you on most things Mick, but I will give you one thing:

You are consistant.

I like that.

Thanks.[/list]

9

Bible does not condone slavery. It does condone servitude with rules!

There are rules against mistreating your servants. Slavery is really different. Yes people may enter into life as a servant but they also are to be given a chance at freedom when their time comes or an offer to stay.

You will find that most people like to abuse their servants and often ignored following the rules of being a good master.

If a master is wise and just He will often serve His servants. This is the relationship of a Christian with God. Because other than love, what can we Offer God? You will find that God serves His servants far more than the servants serve Him!

If you are employed are you not in a sense a servant of your employer? Who gets to make the decisions? You? I think not! Your only options are to follow the rules or lose the benefits of having a master! In other words… someone to take care of you!

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Astral,

Since the words used are ebed (in the OT), and the most common word used in the NT is doulos – I’d be real careful about saying it is talking about ‘servants’ and not ‘slaves’ . . . when ‘slave’ is the best translation of ebed and doulos.

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Leave it to Astral to embrace slavery. #-o