g?d evolves!

g?d evolves!

does god evolve? where everything in the universe and the universe itself changes, why wouldn’t its intelligence and being? in theory if there is a ‘god’ then it is the intelligence of the universe, perhaps the entire set of communications [between events, potentiality and other mechanisms of existence e.g. laws, dimensions, time etc] adds up to some kind of intelligence.
i don’t know if it is like the brain or anything we would normally call intelligence [yet the brain is form by ‘it’], yet what it is by any name or description something that is directly relative to physical existence as we would normally see it ~ hence what we have is something that must mutate according to changes that occur in existence. as the universe evolves so must its ‘intelligence’ as it is directly relevant and indeed inherent within it.

so does g?d change as existence changes and hence evolves just like anything else?
no matter how wise or intelligent g?d is always learning, there never comes a point where omniscience is reached because all the ingredients of that are never arrived at. that is to say; you can only have knowledge of something once it has occurred yet the point where all things have occurred never arrives, hence all knowledge is never arrived at.

the hands that mould the clay
to visualise evolution in an engineered and perhaps intelligent universe, we may see evolution from a duel perspective; we have a ball of clay, it may be shaped in any way, either from the outside [the hands that mould it] or internally as with our present understanding of evolution. i think it works mainly from the inside as the ball of clay is alive/self animating. in either case it can only be shaped relative to its environment and in steps, you can’t jump to humans form nothing as you have to build what that form is made from with the materials available at the time.

to this we may perhaps add the idea that, even when we have an immensely intelligent universe it can only act as a guiding presence and lawmaker at most. creatures react to nature as an entity as well as to individual aspects of it i.e. the immediate environment. the very presence of intelligence is that which drives and builds the tree of evolution. we may go on to say that even law and pattern/math are constructs of both intelligent operation and self creation, a law is made between the interaction of given forms, from energy and dimension to the more macroscopic shapes of existence.

in all cases and from all perspectives, nature finds shape. intelligence, mindfulness and form are results of that, not makers of it. this may seam contradicting as we may say that neither come first nature nor intelligence, both are present throughout. so what is to say one take precedence over the other, well my point is that they don’t and that is exactly why neither dictate to one another! so g?d just lets things occur naturally knowing that things take shape by intelligent mannerisms as described in science and philosophy, that there is an inherent design to how things can only take shape, things are as they are because that is the way nature grows.

let it be

an interesting question for me is that there are two fundamental philosophical properties of existence, which are very relevant to the intelligent universe as seen on a grander scale; a) there is no beginning, and b) infinite potentiality. if existence is eternal [which it must be] then it goes beyond the life cycle of our universe and into the previous and next universes. at some point there would be no events or a skeleton of minimal universal events e.g. the dimensions that transcend one universe and go into the next. so in the the greater cycle intelligence is minimal at this time perhaps even non existent.
at that time the entity of truth to which that intelligence belongs would be in a kind of deep sleep, yet it is dreaming ~ the soup of infinite potentiality is stirring up blending with what has gone before, the result of that cycle of the universe. the next universe just like any life cycle is the result of the previous. so g?d would change dramatically and evolve which each entire universe cycle and the cycles therein!

more exploration…

do all incarnations follow the same rules, is one incarnation the same in essence as a given other? in other words if nature transcends its life cycles on a universal scale then do we also reincarnate by the same universal properties. do we and everything else sleep, dream then become re-manifest in form? there would thence be an ‘it’ that is carried over, the ‘you’ and its essence like a living mass of the results of events, remains and continues.

thank you.

If God involves the three Os (omiscience, omnipotence, ominpresence) as many theologions assert, he/she/it is something in and out of the linearity of human history. Out as prime mover and in as involved in human history. A similar situation arises in discussions of genetics. Does the genome determine all adaptational possibilites of organisms or do these possiblities rely on interactions, feedback, etc. between organisms and environments?
Looking at scriptures attributed to God, this being began as a tribal diety, still is in many parts of the world, and evolved in some instances as a universal diety or at least as a sum total in holistic considerations. Piaget in “Biology and Knowledge” (1967) believes that holism entails belief in a order of existence that does not evolve. The “whole” was there “ab initio”. Some of us parts just can’t see it. :smiley:

Ierrellus, hail

indeed an evolving god would negate such absolutes!

you mean like how does DNA have the potential for all creatures ~ how does it know what it may yet become? good point to which i have no answer, but i expect there is one. i would think that as dafodils have 35% the same genes as humans etc then there is a general genome that fits all, but i don’t know how nature arrived at that. perhaps at first it built up the genome piece by piece until it arrived at soemthing that could encompass all?

well a notion in druidry [that i believe in to some degree] and that belongs to something very much more ancient is the awen ~ the entity of inspiration and invention. i use it all the time and i am sure those who know me would agree that i come up with many original ideas even if slightly insane at times :smiley:
is it just a ‘coincidence’ that a japanese study showed that over 70% of what we use originate in british inventions? the awen is to britain what the tao is to china, it is part of the nations inner persona regardless of racial, cultural and religious changes.

so with the awen we could see a similarity between it and the tao or even god in an impersonalised form. i think we should go beyond all these ways of constraining ‘it’.

hmm yes i would think there are two eternals in this, the stable and the changing, permanent and impermantent. you cannot have change without it flinging between the two in some way.

“does god evolve?”

Absolutely! The notion or concept of him that is.

God never existed but the notion of him was created and is constantly evolving and changing.

I miss Oxford! I lived there for 3 years and haven’t been back in years. I plan to take my wife there in April or May 2009.

Quetzalcoatl is one of my favorite examples of Gods that most people dismiss. He’s so exotic and different than most Gods. How do people know that Jesus is God and not our feathered-snake-friend Quetzalcoatl?

bane, hail

perhaps god never existed but our projection of him onto the aether did. the difference with ‘pagan’ gods is that usually we find that at some time they were real people that later became gods. that makes more sense to me as we can envisage it in a similar way to how mediums talk to the dead [apparently], i.e. a dead famous chappie was accesible by the same kind of person as mediums today.
even in this day people are convinced by such things, indeed i think the jury is still out to some degree.

quetzalcoatl is very cool indeed, he taught ideas against human sacrifice ~ if only they had listened! what would the conquistadors had against the mesoamericans then? hmm i am sure they would have thought of something to get their hands on all that gold.

oxfordshire is very pretty in the main. :slight_smile:

Guns, Germs and Steel. :wink: They still would have obliterated them.

indeed, the slightest difference in theology would be enough let alone a different and pagan religion. even if they were better more righteous people they would still have done it.

Germs was enough to holocaust them. even, unintentionally, it would have happened e ventually.

I like the ancient notions of the ten mathematical archetypes.

In the beginning would be the monad. The monad splits into the dyad and this results in the triad. With the triad all things become possible. We can see this from the beginning, if science is right? There is the electron and protron and later the neutron, and then an explosion of particles, and elements. Elements begin with Hydrogen and through transmuation become all the rest. Life (DNA) begins as a single cell and evolves into a great variety of life. Each step of evolution being a mathematical/geometric step, and as said, does not begin with man, as such a complex creature is quite impossible in the beginning. We think of ourselves as the end of evolution, and interestingly, we are capable of consciousness far beyond the consciousness of plants and animals.

Chardin said, God is sleeping in rocks and minerals, waking in plants and animals, to know self in man.

Now as an embryo, I could not expereince myself as the being I am today. I think it reasonable to assume, neither could God have the consciousness that is possible today.

good point athena! there may come a time when we are not the most advanced beings on this planet. man could diversify as it has in the past, and we will be able to make that happen ourselves. also there may already be far more advanced creatures out there in the universe somewhere. so g?d may have already evolved beyond us, which makes the bible rather pointless in my mind.

i like the triad thing, in druidry we have / | \ which is called the awen [three-fold manifestation], apparently everything comes from that, language especially in the poetic tradition.

so what you are saying is that god would begin as very simple, possibly more simple that any given form. then would grow just like anything else.

i wonder if it has more within that simplicity i.e. the innate wisdom of math, law and pattern etc. when the universe ends will the end space be the same as the beginning space? if so then would that innate wisdom be learned form its previous existence? this idea i call ‘the ghost universe’ as in, the universe is the ghost of itself.


What you say reminds me of Indian-Hindu mythology. Vishnu became the primary God and is sometimes thought of as the dreamer. However, the information I am finding tonight speaks of his incarnations. According to this myth, he has incarnated 9 times and will incarnate once more. Each incarnation is about ridding the earth of an evil and increasing the good.

I Ching, and others, speak of the blending of heaven and earth, which some hold will occur in 2012. Sort of like the game telephone, each account of this blending of heaven and earth is a little different. If heaven and earth are blended, that is a return to the Monad. All begins with the Monad and all returns to the Monad. I presume this can happen repeatedly and for eternity. However, the author of “The Mayan Factor” Jose Arguelles, speaks of this blending as a time of new consciousness. Evidently earth life will continue but be aware of other other universe beings. The consciousness is different from our present consciousness, it is a New Age, because those of the New Age will not be able to relate to our past expereince and consciousness.

Then there is psychological theory that are we distained to experience a spiritual reality, as it is programmed in our DNA to do so.

I would say many have of spoken of that which you speak, and I wonder if that of which you speak is intuitively your thoughts, or the result of being aware of those who have spoken?

athena, hi

the 2012 thing is interesting as we can clearly see a condensing of events especially over the last few centuries. this is happening exponentially as existence becomes more complicated, and we may note that events are not purely physical, they are of the mind and consciousness too!

i don’t think there is a specific time for it, usually in any mathematical evolution pattern we get a time of great change followed by a time of calm. this is a little like a sine-wave with a sharp turn, in evolution itself we get a mutation then a new breed.

perhaps humanity is going through such a period, but in this time i don’t think it is one person but all people who will be transformed. what else can happen with current state of condensed events? i have a theory i call ‘sardine fever’ whereby if you get a lot of people in one place it reflects on the consciousness of that place. like if you go on the tube there is a strange sense of awe that makes people not talk and feel anxious, this is one reason why city life is more dangerous than country life.

the point i am trying to make is that a condensing of events and consciousness will have an effect, then will be followed by calm.

interesting! i don’t think that much info can be put into our dna, but i do think that there is something like what the hindu’s call the akashic ~ which is the collective memory of everything that has been said. probably 96% of what we think of is a result of that with just a little bit of new stuff coming through as inspiration and invention [as i see it via the awen].

again we see a pattern; the mass of ideas [as like events], is the vast majority with just a little amount of spice, which creates a massive change and a new cycle. a single invention just like a change in the genes can change the world!

thank you for your insights. :slight_smile: