Gay Rights, or gay wrongs

[b] I have one definite question for everyone to answer before you choose to read my opinon on the subject. That question is:

Should the ACLU be demolished or furthermore upheld?

You decide.[/b]

I think that gay people are trying to fool themselves into beleiving they HAVE to be attracted to the same sex. It’s funny to me with gay people, how when they begin to try and find their feelings they act like they are all alone, etc.
If a man is a man and a woman is a woman, they SHOULD be attracted to the OPPOSITE sex. Now in science we understand that we like the opposite sex not only because of reproduction, but because of love, romance, family and the FULL enjoyment of sex the way ‘mother nature’ (if you want to use that word) intended it.
Already when people think of someone using the view which I HAVE stated a few lines up; they automatically think that people are trying to PUSH their views on someone else.
The funny thing about that; is that the ACLU has been intruding into other people’s lives for far too long with their ‘gay power’ message and other issues (which have to do with certain races). For some reason I never see people bashing the gay rights organizations for PUSHING their views on other people, sounds like quite a bit of hypocrasy to me. They obviously use the constitution and ammendments to try and justify what they are doing as “their right”.
I understand that also in the law; you cannot intrude your views on people (like the ACLU and other gay rights organizations HAVE!)

Tell me then, WHAT THE HECK justifies gay organizations for trying to eliminate the idea of a ‘family’ in american life?
It isn’t bad enough that our country is slowly turning into a melting pot of selfishness; with minority groups thinking only of the people who are the most threat and NOT thinking on which issues can ACTUALLY improve our lives (such as a family atmosphere, etc.)
Every person who reads this knows that ‘deep’ down inside a family is right and being gay is NOT natural. Whether or not you actually admit that however, is another story. Perhaps gay people are so depressed that they actually beleive that they MUST like the same sex or something BAD is going to happen to them. Perhaps they were molested as a child by someone of the same sex and forever after their spirits are altered. Whatever the reason, it’s usually not an ingrafted one.
Now I, in no way, HATE gay people, nor have I ever been hurt by one. It’s just that I am trying to explain my view on the issue. Sorry if I have offended anyone, please keep an open mind and I will also…

P.S. Please try to keep on the subject and try not to make this an issue of freedom. Freedom exists soley so that people can BE KEPT alive. Freedom is misused when people destroy themselves and others with it.

I am in a hurry so i will be brief and come back later. I’ll single out the point that came foremost to mind when reading the post, and reply to the rest tomorrow.

Prove it. I have not thought that in a looong time, ever since i knew that gays existed. If I were to say to you that I do not believe that there is anything unnatural about homosexuality, or that there is nothing natural about “normal” families, then what would you say to me?

I am speculating, (and that is all it is, I could be wrong. but by the content of your post, I think not) that you would say I am deluding myself. now how is it possible to argue with that? You would never believe me if I say that, and yet you are the one asking me to keep an open mind. How can you say that you will keep an open mind when it is clear that you have already made yours up?

Hmm, more love from the ACLU. I don’t care if they have religious connections or not. More hypocrasy it seems.

Pretty funny that on the ACLU homepage there is a link that directs users to their page “supporting” religion. For god sakes, with these people behind us, who can be against us!?

ACLU should die :slight_smile:

My dog is gay.

Mr lee If every person in your family was a set race/color(green) and you had your own new sexual preference(bananas).
I would say, “Hi green people”.

I would not come up here and say

This forum is to discuss idea’s, Not to force one’s Dogma of persecution against homosexual’s or any other creed, race, or interest on others.
But if you want to discuss things with out hating Fine, More than welcome. If you can make one post with out trying to hate somebody, or blaim somebody for something Id be suprised.

And even if we did discuss homosexuals, we would ask for better reasons than. “well every body knows that its just not right,” Here we require damn near scientific evidence, not somebodys simple belife.

That was MY opinion. It is only supportable by ME.

I wonder what Mr. Lee would have to say behind John Rawls Veil of Ignorance?

I’m not familiar with that particular veil. Could you enilighten me?

It is one of the greatest philosophical principles to date!

And it’s about the only thing John Rawls is known for, as far as my knowledge of him goes.

Anyway, the veil of ignorance is a thought experiment proposed by JR as a measure of equality. To look at anything from behind the veil of ignorance, means to put everything about yourself behind you, pretend you don’t know, and judge the situation. Kind of like stepping out of your shoes. For instance, Mr. Lee believes that gay’s should not be given rights to adopt children. From this may stem many other ‘should nots’ associated to gays. From these little things comes, what we know to be prejudice and unfair treatment. So from behind the veil of ignorance, Mr. Lee would have to imagine that he does not exist, and that he is to make a choice as to whether gays should be given these rights or not, BUT; Mr. Lee must imagine that he doesn’t know what he will come back as! If you don’t know if you will be a woman or a man, you will not choose a society in which there is discrimination against women, cause you might be one. If you don’t know if you will be straight or gay, you will not choose a society that discriminates against gays, cause you might be one. This is why I was curious what Mr. Lee would say if he was to make the same decisions from behind the veil of ignorance.

From a utilitarian standpoint. If you choose a society that discriminates against gays, but not straight, and you are born gay, you will be discriminated against, which is bad or painful. If you are born straight, then everything is okay for you. So with this scenario, there is a 50/50 chance of you being happy. But if you choose a society in which gays are not discriminated against, and you are born gay, you will not be discriminated against, so you will be happy. If you are born straight, all is well, and you are happy. In this scenario there is a 100% chance that you will be happy, all other things aside that is. So, John Rawls argument using the principle of utility is that any rational being would choose the society in which gays are not discriminated against. This is what he proposes we do with all dilemma’s.

Personally, I think this principle is very useful. It has it’s draw backs, but as long as it is used in the right situations; it is a very powerful tool. I have made many people change their minds, away from dogmatic thinking, when all rational explanations had been used up for me, I resorted to try the veil of ignorance and it worked.

What’s your take?

[b]First I would like to apologize that I did not present scientific evidence or even historical facts, etc. In my next posts I shall do just that…

Also I would like to say that you are ALL great intellectuals and people who I wouldn’t mind being in “my” society. It’s good that we can all discuss different things, sorry if I seem to get out of hand and “offend” anyone. Magius has seemed to keep a cool head and patience with me (good job).
I would also like to say I am NOT a bad or mean person. Today I even TALKED to a gay guy and wasn’t rude to him at all, while the whole time I was trying to think of HOW he got gay, I simply treated him the same way I treat everyone else!

LOOK people, regardless of what I think or anyone else in the universe, the society we live is actually in control. For those who HATE gays and use violence against them, they should be judged accordingly. I beleive in every right of free speech, but when people like the ACLU cause problems and infringe THEIR rights on OTHER people’s rights, it’s wrong, period and you ALL know it :slight_smile: Certainly you would agree with me in that one, if you are gay, straight, bi or whatever. Like the ACLU excluding the Bible from schools and then teaching about GAY lifestyles in the SAME school!? Come on people, think about that one!
Anyway, this is a pretty long one, would be nice if you could read it ALL though, I love talking to you guys! Sorry if I get offensive, it’s just the heterosexual gene in me :slight_smile:


Well first of all I would ask you what your definition of a “normal” family is.
If a normal family to you is a family that never fights, then I would suppose that you beleive only families that never fight are the ones that count (and that count is 0). Every family fights.

Also I wish to cover the topic of the family reason from HVD’s quote:

A family is something that cannot be asked for more. A true HEALTHY family does NOT consist of someone in the household having to worry about what sex they MUST be attracted to. I do beleive however something I said before, “If they are a male they should ACT like a male, if they are a female ACT like a female. Since when should we NOT act like how we are BORN!?”

Well Magius, if that’s true, then why is it the ONLY thing known about him?

Well should all rest assured that John Rawls has lots of exprience in many areas of life then.

Yeah, sounds interesting enough. Would have been good if you didn’t say what you said a few lines down…

If I don’t know anything at all how would I even think to want to know what I will become when I come into being born (from wherever I am supposed to be in your theory…
Secondly what on earth does being a man OR a woman have to do with what views I am going to have? Doesn’t matter if I am either one you see, cause in the end I will always have the same view, simply this…

If I am a man, I will act like a man. If I am a woman I will be and ACT like a woman! it’s stupid to say that I would be gay and born with it (the gay gene doesn’t even exist until the person TRIES to be gay), just to further more support your unnatural hypothisis.

I beleive everything in the beginning of things had a SURE purpose. Why are most people NOT gay if it is considered natural? I ask you!? At least have the courage to answer me that question!

BTW, WOULD ANY OF YOU BE ALIVE IF YOUR PARENTS WERE GAY!? NO! I beleive that sentence alone would prove that gay people don’t have a right to be gay, in order to protect the entire civilization. Men are meant to make love to women and women to men! It IS the natural way of things, if you deny this you are only being ignorant of the facts. I KNOW these to be true because men are not born with an extra sex organ (a vagina) and women are NOT EVER born with a penis to go along with THEIR vagina in case they want to change their idea about things! BTW I also know that the penis and vagina are supposed to be the same sex organ, only one is shaped differently (something stupid like that anyway).

Animals are too stupid to understand whether or not being gay will affect them. Ya know something, we took our dog to the vet to get her fixed. After she was “fixed” the vet said she WASN’T going to hump anyone anymore. This guy was a “qualified” vetranearan too! Few months after, we were watching TV, (me and my two heterosexual parents) and the dog started humping MY leg. Hmm, now how would a vet get something like that wrong, we even went back to him and he said that I was lying! That’s why I am so harsh with everyone about their “facts” and theories. Even the smartest people mess up things we’ve never heard before.
lol anyway…

Speaking of that, remember the stuff about the “Gay Gene” well looks like it’s a bunch of lies. As an artical from a web site points out:

For the link to that site go here

You all know that there are also other findings and other articles about the Ontario team who found that there is no GAY gene. If you don’t, simply do a search on the web for, “Gay Gene”.

I suggest that gays be kept OUT of the school system’s education. Their “views” and rights should NOT be taught in school. If gays and lesbians need to get help, it should come directly from the government, not children and teachers. I agree that all people are created equal, but gays and lesbians need to infringe on someone else.

[b]The ONLY way I would beleive that a gay lifestyle is to be taught in public schools, is if the Bible is allowed to be taught in the same school. It’s only FAIR and equal. Take out the Bible, take out the gay lifestyle classes! You know I am right!

My final closing statement is that gay people are not bad people. They just need all the help they can get to turn their lives into something good. I’m not being “dogmatic” by saying that either, obviously you make a lot of assumptions people, try to get to know the TRUE me before you judge (I will not judge before I know the true gay either).
I don’t think I will ever have a friendship with a gay person because we hold NOTHING in common. It wouldn’t make sense if I am NOT gay to NOT want to be friends with gay people, would it?
God bless all (if ya want, if not, shut up! what I have to say to make a friendly compliment around here!?) [/b][/url]

gay lifestyle classes?

Mr. Lee stated:

Why does that make a difference? What is the point? A guy came up with something that made a difference in the world, so what if he didn’t come up with anything else. Does coming up with things that change the world come in pairs, or triplets? Furthermore, you should read my post with a little more caution and you will notice that I specified it to my knowledge. Since I don’t know everything, it is quite possible that he thought of other great things that I have never heard of. For this reason I specified, so people would not think what you are thinking, that it IS the only thing known about him.

Mr. Lee stated:

You are suppose to start afresh, you know nothing, then you know that you have to pick a society to live in, but you don’t know what you will be, do you pick one that discriminates against gays, or do you pick one that doesn’t discriminate against gays? Given that you don’t know whether you will be gay or straight when you enter the world. It’s not my theory, Mr.Lee, it’s Rawls theory. Try to read behind the lines, it is a thought experiment and not an ethical law because you have to use your imagination, rational, logic, and a little wit.

Mr. Lee stated:

To the former, what has to do with your views is the following…if you were sexist, let’s say you discriminate against women intentionally, and you put yourself behind the veil of ignorance, and you don’t know whether you are going to be a male or a female - would you choose to live in a society that discriminates against women? No. Because you don’t know if you will be female or not. Which leads to creating a society that doesn’t discriminate against women. The value of this thoughts experiment comes in that it brings out equal and objective views from even the most closed minded people. Many affirmative action programs before their creation, were based, in argument, using the Veil of Ignorance. So your view will no longer be that you should be discriminating against women, because you are led to imagine what it would be like if you were a women. So you stop discriminating, isn’t it wonderful.

Mr. Lee your view of the sexes is a little naive, you make it sound like all women are the same, just as all men are the same. What are you saying when you say you will act like a man? In detail if you can. Then answer what you think you would act like if you were a woman. In detail if you can. Mr. Lee, your extreme assuredness of your claim that a gay gene doesn’t even exist until the person TRIES to be gay, is less then reassuring. Genetics is a little more sophisticated then that. Furthermore, no gene comes to exist because of a sexual tendency one may have. If you don’t know about something, the worst thing you can do is articulate yourself as someone who does. It’s unbecoming.

Mr. Lee stated:

Be careful what you say about anyone’s courage, you obviously know little about it. Answering a question on this message board has almost nothing to do with courage. You make a obtuse remark like that and I will ignore everything you post and let you have a piece of my mind. Don’t apologize, just don’t do it. Which brings me to another point; I hate how useless apologizing has become in my eyes…so many people find it so easy lately to just say “sorry” and five minutes later their doing it again. I don’t want any apologeze from anyone, if you know you did something someone doesn’t like, JUST DON’T DO IT! Most people are not gay because if they were then we would die off - since in order for the population to grow we need at least 50% of the population having two kids (+1). But that is what you want to lead me to. Well there it is, but so what? It is heterosexuals that create gays! Let me remind you that being gay is evident in the animal world as much as it is in the human world. Many gays do not leave any babies around. Furthermore, statistics have shown that children growing up with gay parents, either both male or both female, have grown to be healthy, smart, well developed citizens, and like I said before…they grow up to be heterosexual. So don’t think that being gay is contagious.

Mr. Lee stated:

Not so. Some gays do not realize they are gay till after they are married and have children. Others stay in the closet until they are married and have kids. So even gays can pass on children. What would you say if your great-grandpa was gay?

About your comment for what a penis or vagina is made for. Don’t go there okay, there is adaptation and there is exaptation. There are many things in the world which have a plethora of exaptations, like your hand. Your hand presumably wasn’t made for typing, yet there you are typing away you paradoxical fellow, get your fingers away from that keyboard - how dare you do such an unatural thing! I hope you’ve never masturbated young man, that’s not what your hands are for you know. According to who, do we say what a thing is made FOR? You ever got a BJ before? Well don’t you ever do it again, cause your penis wasn’t meant to go in there. It could just as easily be argued, that if something isn’t meant for another thing, then how come we can use it for that other thing?

Mr. Lee stated:

You an animal Mr. Lee? You appear to be afraid of becoming gay. Please inform of us how being gay will affect us…go on…

About your article wise guy…

The guy who did the research was trying to prove that the gene isn’t part of Xq28, he was trying to prove it was somewhere else!!! Not that it didn’t exist!!!

What did you do Mr. Lee read the title and the subheading and think you have solved a mystery? Pretentious if you ask me. You have the gull to post the site thinking it’s all there. Obviously you haven’t read it.

Mr. Lee stated:

Careful Mr. Lee this is bordering on spreading hate. Which is distinctly prohibited by the disclaimer on this message board. Plus it’s just arrogant and obtuse.

Mr. Lee stated:

Gay lifestyle taught in school? What school do you go to? No school I have ever heard of actually teaches lifestyles, or how to live. Especially public schools. No one tells you how much sex to have, with whom, on what day, for how long, in what position, in what location…etc. I think I hear a screw comin lose in that box of a head you have.

Mr. Lee stated:

Judge!?! Your the one coming out with “come on atleast everyone can agree with me on that”, you are the one who hasn’t judged any individual gay, you’ve judged them ALL.

Mr. Lee stated:

The above quote is just plain dumb! You are a sick person Mr. Lee, do you think all there is to people is their sex preference, can gays not have anything else worthwhile to provide for the world and society!?! Do you think friendship is based on sex preference?

What’s your take?

Actually you said it wasn’t natural to be gay. My dog is well… not artificial so I’d say it’s natural. Hell my girl rabbit humped my boy rabbit. I got pissed off and ate it though don’t worry. If animals were too stupid to know the difference then we’d all be dead. I don’t think they could rely on chance. Naturally there are more females than males. So the chances of a male inseminating a female would be so small that all the species would die. Which is cool because they are evil but that’s besides the point. So my conclusion is naturally it doesn’t matter where you stick it just as long as you get it right every once in a while. By the way the vet was probably joking. Probably to break the awkwardness after chopping off your dogs balls. If someone chopped off my balls they better have a damn funny joke for me afterwards.

I also agree that they shouldn’t teach sexual preference in schools. Mostly because it has no relevance to anything just like religion. It’s possible to go years without religious intervention. Why teach something you’re never going to have to apply to anything. You’re better off going with a philosophy or a psycology class. The only reason I can see teaching religion is if people are using it as a guide to observe where certain beliefs originated or study past cultures. Nowadays religion doesn’t play a very big role in society so naturally it’s been removed from schools. It only makes sense to teach what you need to know. Anything else you could find yourself. If you are refering to the “under god” in the pledge then I also don’t agree to keeping that as well. Mostly because the original pledge didn’t even have that in it. Also because the original author wasn’t all that interested in religion. If you are honestly going to honor someones work and what it stands for why change it to a meaningless rehearsal?

You obviously don’t get enough porn mail.

Also I doubt homosexuality is genetic. If homosexuals survived better to the point that there was a gene developed and passed along for generations… It just wouldn’t work. It’s gotta be a social thing.

Thank you for your reply Magius. I am NOT a “sick” person. And you obviously did not read the bold parts of my message.

Referring to the comments about gay lifestyle classes:

There isn’t a “gay” class, it’s not that outright. In sex education classes the teachers often hint around to the students that they “might” be gay. If a student is to find that out themselves then they must NOT have any HELP from the outside world. You may think that is harsh or whatever, but the truth is that teenagers learn without the help of their parents as much as what happens around them. Constant harassing from teachers in sex ed trying to entice the students who are weak-minded and deprived by telling them they are gay happens all the time!
I know it must, because we are NOT a stupid society and everyone seems to want to label someone as gay. It’s really SICK from them Magius, to have to impose that everyone who has a certain quirk or a chance of where they kissed someone from the same sex MUST be gay! Certainly there is someone pushing them to go into the open with their “gayness” that doesn’t even exist!
Why don’t people want to CLEAN the closet instead of COME out of it!?

Well, here’s my carefully worded and slightly tentative take on the matter…

I am gay. I was not ‘persuaded’ or ‘taught’ to be this way, I just grew up being attracted to women rather than men. Is this natural? Probably not, but it isn’t hurting anybody. Obviously, it is the ‘natural’ way for women to be attracted to men, and vice versa, simply because this is how the human race reproduces. But if we’re going to condemn things that aren’t ‘natural’, shouldn’t we also condemn the wearing of clothes? That isn’t natural either! Babies aren’t born wearing clothes! But nobody has a problem with that…

On the subject of religion and gay rights in schools (I’m not religious, by the way), I would say that the two are quite similar, and should be dealt with in similar ways. I don’t think that Christianity (or any other religion) should be forced on children - I think they should be informed about the beliefs of other people in a totally neutral way and be left to make up their own minds. The same with ‘gay’ education. Children should be taught that this does go on, but everyone is different and free to make up their own mind as to whether they are attracted to the same sex or not.

I do not believe that gay people are simply kidding themselves, and telling themselves that they should be attracted to members of the same sex. Maybe this applies to a few people, but I’m sure it also applies to some people who kid themselves as they feel they should be heterosexual, and I have a feeling that the latter is far more common.

Personally I think that people should be left to make up their own minds, and as long as they’re happy and not hurting anyone, what’s the point in condemning their actions?

Oh by the way, I have a secret opinion that most people are really bisexual. They just round it up.

I just have one point in response to the assertion that being gay is not natural. Has anyone ever heard of the Bonobo monkeys? These bisexual monkeys frequently hump each other, masturbate each other and grab each others genitals when frightened.

I’m not trying to be mean or anything… But some people consider themselves to be more than mere monkeys.
Besides, I think that all this gay stuff is actually based on a misdirection of curiosity at the time of puberty. And this curiosity which is never fulfilled by the individual’s own sexuality, nor by that of the opposite sex, leads him/her to… gayness…
It’s not the individual to blame for this, but society. Which, after all, reduces to the individual… Hmm…

I think Marshall Daniels point is one that I echoed myself about that fact that many people believe that to be ‘gay’ is relative only to humans. But this is not that case, all sorts of animals, not just monkeys have been documented to engage in same sex fondelling or humping.

Furthermore, about being gay occuring as a sexual error, interesting view. But for males, it has been shown that it has something to do with our genes. Mysteriously the same attribute in the genes cannot be found in women.

No matter what the reason though, in my opinion, gays should not be treated as anything less than heterosexuals.

What’s your take?

The question of gay rights is a stupid and irrelevent one. Homosexuals are exactly the same as everyone else except for the fact that they are attracted to people of the same sex. What a concept, Mr Lee!! Isn’t that amazing? They are people, not some aliens from Alpha Centauri. Gays should be given the same rights as everyone else.

I am; however, against special interest groups such as the ACLU, inasmuch that they perpetuate the problem, and are infact probably working towards their own political agendas. Setting people apart from others it what creates prejudice. This is exactly what special interest groups do; they set people apart. This is one reason why I’m against the NAACP. They have outlived their purpose and exist only now to agitate. The NAACP made great strides for black, but now I think that if they had peacefully vanished that there would be virtually no, if not actually no racism in the USA. Back on the subject, though; take this example:

Suppose I am a londlord and a heterosexual couple is looking to lease an apartment. They are; however, living together out of wedlock and that is in conflict with my religous beliefs. As result I reject their application. What happens? Nothing; they go and look for another appartment.
~Now suppose it was a homosexual couple instead of a heterosexual couple. If I reject the lease then I’m liable to end up in court on some sexual discrimination suit or some other s*** charges.

Gays should not be given special execptions. They are normal people like you and I.

On the issue of homosexuals adopting, it is the intrests of the child that should be placed above and before anything else. Heterosexuals are rejected on certain basis, why not homosexuals? Equal, equal, equal, isn’t that what the United States is based on? That all people are created equal? If the couple meets the criteria then they should be given custody, homo- or heterosexual. Personal prejudice will always exist, but that can’t be helped.

Mr. Lee,

Homosexuality is defined as someone of one sex being attracted to another of the same sex. “Gayness” exists as is prooved by the fact that there are people attracted to the same sex as themselves. Emotions are purely subjective and belong to the subject. I suggest you take a lesson from Diogenes and stop trying to fight over the subjective. Who are you to tell someone what they feel? . “Gayness” is real; believe it, you ignorant fool.

Right now I see you ending up in the same room as Protagoras, yelling out in vain, “It doesn’t exist because I don’t believe in it!!”

Although, I completely agree that homos should be given equal rights, I must agree that homosexuality is not natural, at least according to Darwin’s theory. If we were all gay we would have some serious problems. This really makes me wonder though. What is it that makes me like females? Why is it my natural tendency? What makes the homosexual different? I tend to agree with h2o’s theory, at least until someone gives me a better one.

Magius, you will have to give me some more info on this concept of the gay gene. It only occurs in males? I am very interested to read more on this subject.