God and Epistemological Realism

I had originally posted this in the thread ‘A Predictable Proof for God’. Upon further review however, that thread has pretty much devolved in to flame-baiting. My own concern is only tangentially related to the proof being debated in that thread, so I thought I’d post it here, if anyone was interested in it. If this sort of thing is a not allowed, my apologies; I’m sure the thread will be closed in that event forthwith.

Note that ‘the argument’ I am referring to in the beginning is Chester’s proof for the existence of God from design.

Greetings! Such posts are perfectly allowed, and most welcome. I read your (well-written) post as an argument against rationalism, and the whole Cartesian project. This may not have been your intention…

Time is part of nature. “In” is, I think, a misleading preposition. Nature began along with time. And I would agree, causal questions have no meaning with such an event - our language and consciousness arose long after the fact, and have no reason to have developed to take into account such situations.

What would consitute grounds for such knowledge?

By choosing to believe something without any evidence, unaided reason has already thrown the towel in.

Does the agency have to be outside nature, rather than a part of nature that our senses do not directly percieve?

I agree, excellent & well written post. You’ve essentially captured, in a few paragraphs, what I have spent multiple threads trying to convey to Chester. Not to say he is “wrong” by any means, but I find your logic, and reasoning, to be far more complete, concise, and practical.

Perhaps just a realization that we can’t even be certain of the totality of our own cognitive functions or the effect they have on our perception of reality. Therefore, reality itself is made uncertain by perspective.

Thanks for the warm welcome, guys. Glad you liked the post.

OnlyHumean:

I am more oriented towards Kantian/Humean terms, but yea it’s definitely tied up in Cartesian rationalism.

What the exact relationship of ‘time’ is with ‘nature’ is not, I think, something which we can say with certainty, since I believe Kant showed pretty convincingly that space and time are intuitions of the human mind which we use for the purpose of observation. It’s possible that they are also features of the world-in-itself (and I believe that they are), but we can’t assert that with certainty. What I meant to show there was that ‘causal’ relationship arise from the mind’s structure, and therefore attempts to attribute them to reality-in-itself are founded on shaky ground. Essentially, unaided reason can not provide its own foundations; whether its perceptions correspond to a real world, what that real world is like, or even how to explain its perceptions as presented to it.

With regards to the first paragraph, I agree. Unaided reason must throw the towel in either way; either nihilism, or faith in something which it cannot provide direct evidence for.

What I will say I think the entity must exist outside of is the spatiotemporal & causal structure that we perceive as ‘the world’. Whether the word ‘nature’ would be or could be still be applicable to this would probably just lead us down an endless semantic rabbit hole. In this case, causality still breaks down of course; it cannot build its own foundation. But in choosing to believe in an entity outside of this structure which creates, sustains and reveals it, even if we can say nothing about this entity, we can at least, it seems, make the structure itself comprehensible, and salvage causality for purposes, at least, of explaining the structure.