Normally I would try to be nice to atheists but your views are frankly insulting to the highest degree to disregard Judaism, Christianity and Islam as “silly beliefs” is totally counter productive and enraging. You have no sense of any intamate knowledge of any of these religions. That is in other words “ignorance” and the fact that you claim there is no “foundation” is only evidence to your lack of real research. Surely is you were so firm on your own beliefs you’d very much have come to the logical conclusion that not only is evolution a far fetched theory, modern genetics proves that it is theoretically IMPOSSIBLE to have the sufficeint ‘benificial’ genetic mutuations to occur to create the species of the earth (multi-cellular organisms). See the key foundation of the modern theory of evolution is centerd on singular celled organisms that when cultured over successive generations produce ‘benificial’ mutations. But in hindsight these are adaptations on a cellular level. But what the scientists who believe in this theory fail to recall is that single celled organisms are nothing like muti-cellular organism in which trillions of cells form organs or functioning body parts. The key disillusion is that ‘benificial’ mutatuions are only speculatively 0.01% out of all mutations. The other mutations are actually hindering to the cell and the organism. So in order for reptiles to evolve into mammals a number of benificial mutations had to occur, such as 1) Scales to skin 2) Breasts to form on Females 3) Babies to be born in whomes instead of eggs. Now this is where the statistically impossible probability comes in. Now surely an intelligent person like you has done the math. Now based on 0.01% (regarded as a highly generous figure but I’ll let you have it) and multiplied by 3 we come up with the figure 0.000001%. Now since you already knew that because you’ve researched what you believe so thoroughly cuz thats why you believe in the first place, you know when you talked about logic and reason… So you basically have a 0.000001% you are right that God doesn’t exist. Oh well excuse me for not believing in what you believe and hey maybe my beliefs are “silly” or maybe I am “unintelligible”. But if I am then I’d hate to think of what that makes you…
Oh dear… Well now that were insulting each other this doesn’t look like it will get anywhere productive. So lets play nice and have a thoughtful debate for a second. You in fact have no proof that God doesn’t exist, in fact that’s why you are called an Atheist - someone who doesn’t believe or dennie the existence of God. But when you say “there is no God” then we assume you’ve come up with the long sought after proof that there is no God. Take a trip down memory lane if you will around when Darwin first introduced his ‘theory’ ever since then you Atheist have been DESPERATELY seeking your proof that there is no God. Not trying to proove your theory right but more or less trying to proove scientifically that its more probable than the existence of God. But since I “possess some mental handicap” you are right and I am of course wrong and ignorant to believe in God. But if you’d bother to actually read the site I sent you instead of thinking long and hard of witty insults like “you’re a retard” then you’d realize that I was in fact right and you were… lets not go there. Anywho since you OBVIOUSLY didn’t read the entirety of what I sent you lets recap the main points shall we…
- There is no human work in existence that contains statements as far beyond the level of knowledge of its time as the Qur’an.
2)“And I created every living thing out of water†Qur’an, 21:30 (not known at the time)
3)“Do the disbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then I split them apart?†Qur’an, 21:30 (prooved by modern Science)
4)“Did you see how Allah created seven heavens, one above the other, and made in them the moon a light and the sun a lamp?” Qur’an, 78:12-13 (there are 7 layers in the earths atmosphere [not known at the time])
5)“(God is) the one who created the night, the day, the sun and the moon. Each one is traveling in an orbit with its own motion.†Qur’an,21:33 (Not known at the time)
6)“I built the heaven with power and it is I, who am expanding it.†Qur’an,51:47 (expansion and continous expansion of the Universe [lucky guess? or divine revelation])
7)“Have We not made the earth an expanse and the mountains stakes?†Qur’an, 78:6-7 (Mountains act as ‘stakes’ that hold to tetonic plates together where they overlap [lucky guess?])
“I fashioned the clinging entity into a chewed lump of flesh and I fashioned the chewed flesh into bones and I clothed the bones with intact flesh.†Qur’an, 23:14 (How an embryo forms into a human being know at 600 ad before confirmed with modern science)
Here is another site http://www.it-is-truth.org/Index.shtml
I’m sorry if what I believe seems mentally handycapped cuz you know I must be crazy to believe in facts and scientific proof. Maybe I am out of my element maybe science is better off in the hands of people like you Hombre who can tell me what to believe and what not to believe because obviously you know what your talking about. But when your done debating and insulting perhaps you can provide your PROOF that there is no God, otherwise your just going to have to admit I’m right.
Seriously if you’d admit I was right i’d probably be speachless for a month.
Crux… if your going to use math in an argument… at least whip out a calculator.
Hombre:
being new I just briefly read over your post your wondering given rational thought why would someone believe in something unproveable? well there is no rational reason to believe in something unproveable. That’s why it’s called faith. You go on faith that as you drive your car today you’ll be statistically on the safe side and won’t get in an accident. You go on faith that as you walk out on a mostly cloudy day, without your rain coat or umbrella, it wont’ start raining until you get to where you need to go. I bet there’s 100’s of things you do in a week that rely on complete faith.
The way I see it Evolution as a theory is nearly unproveable, a majority of the “skeletons” they have found are comprised of bones found miles apart. and while there are transitionary forms, the driving force behind the evolution is complete conjecture as there is no way to prove how it happened.
so there you have it. God is unproveable, and evolution is unproveable. it’s just a matter of where you put your faith. (and from the sounds of it your not 100% atheist anyways.)
As cheesy as it sounds you can develop a personal relationship with god, without religion. It happened to me several years ago, I was in a similiar position that you are, but more agnostic than atheist.
in the end though this entire topic borders on futility. your only going to believe what you want to. and clearly you don’t want to believe in god.
I would...but I have a feeling that you as an atheist-agnostic, and me as a Christian have very different ideas of what faith is, so I'd hesitate to agree with this until I know exactly what you mean. :slight_smile: But yes, as far as I understand faith, it is part of the reason I believe.
Those are the ones I’m most familiar with. Much of the hardcore argument-based stuff I do is refuting absolute claims that God can’t or doesn’t exist.
My understanding of it is that you're saying there isn't enough evidence to believe there is a God, as compared to some of the alternatives to theism, such as atheism or polytheism and so on. With insuffecient evidence to distinguish between these options, the safe bet is agnosticism. That's the argument, right?
If I've phrased it correctly, I guess my opening defense would be that 'not enough evidence' seems extremely subjective to me. It needs to be objectively determined what 'enough' evidence is, before the argument can apply on more than a personal level. You are quite justified in saying "There is not enough evidence to convince me", but to say "There is so little evidence that no one ought be convinced" would require a stronger argument than I think you've made.
To say that there is [i]no[/i] evidence seems an exaggeration, for the traditional theistic arguments- even if you ultimately don't think they are sound- do exist, and have persisted for a very long time, and they [i]do[/i] convince many people. Therefore, I would think it's more correct to say that there is evidence for the existence of God, but you could argue that it's very weak or inconclusive.
I’m sure you could have two extremely powerful Beings. But, it seems to me that having multiple Beings who are all Omnipotent, and all have free-will would be impossible- if for any action you take, there is another Being with the power to undo or cancel that action, are you truly Omnipotent?
If that’s the case, then it’s more rational to suppose 1 creator, due to a principal of simplicity. We don’t suppose multiple agents when one will do, do we?
Science is an example, math is perhaps a better one. My point is this- Simplicity is a factor in any argument, because there will always be mulitple solutions to choose from, which equally support whatever evidence we have. As you pointed out, there is the possibility that 2, 10, or 97 Beings are responsible for the creation of the Universe. However, if 1 will work just as well as 10, then we are best served by believing in the 1. Similarly, we ought to believe this Being has as few properties as possible.
Simply being Powerful may be enough, but as you and I seem to agree, evidence favors the idea of there being a mind behind the Universe. So, the Being must be a powerful mind. So, it seems a single, very powerful, very intelligent Being is responsible for the creation of the Universe- or at least, that is the best guess, without more evidence.
scythekain, I liked your post. Faith is a very tricky topic. Instead of responding to your argument I’m going to have to say that most of what I’d say is in the 6 pages of posts. It’s a lot but it’s mostly there. To sum it up, though, I argue that it is not fair to to call faith in the external world, faith in traffic, and faith in a single, perfect, intelligent first cause the same faith. The argument is huge but it’s in the 6 pages and not over yet 
As for your argument against Darwin’s Theory: first I’ll say that no theory is provable. Secondly, disproving Darwin’s Theory doesn’t prove Creationism. Thirdly, as a Naturalist, I’ll going to find it hard to believe in any variety of Creationism.
CyruxMafia, I apologize for the flames. It was just that your oober-hostility and your obvious enragement fueled me to go down a couple of levels and flame you. Nevertheless, you’ve gotta calm down, man.
Your first argument translates to, “I do not believe in Darwin’s Theory of evolution therefore God exists.” What do you know. The God of Gaps makes yet another apperance of this thread.
Proves it’s impossible? Strong claim you got there. Still, I have to agree with you. Darwin’s Theory is unintelligeble at best but CyruxMafia, just because people don’t come from apes doesn’t mean that “God did it”. For the love of God, spare me the God of Gaps story. I don’t know where Homo Sapien Sapiens came from but how can you say “God did it”? That’s ignorant.
No, I don’t have proof of the non-existence of God. Agnosticism. Look it up.
That’s a good argument. When it comes to Judaism I’m very ignorant. After seeing Pi I’ve always wanted to look into Judaism.
Let me look into it, do some reading, and get back to you. We could start a new thread or something. I have little idea of how the Jewish God is defined or what it’s other arguments are. The current discussion is on the God of natural theism and Christianity. I have my plate full with that one
Still, I have a couple of questions about your God. If your God wants us to know he exists and he is super-powerful then why don’t believe that he exists? Why aren’t there any more prophets? If he is all knowing and powerful then how can we be responsible for our actions? How is it fair that we get judged?
There are basic questions that apply to most religions but I am curious as to how Judaism answers them.
(Not to say that I don’t make many spelling mistakes but you’ve been spelling prove “proove” just about time in your posts)
STOP CALLING ME A JEW! Its not Judaism its Islam you ignoramous. Okay lets review, God first prophet was Adam the first human being, people went astray from God’s path then he spoke to Abraham to guide his people then eventually they went astray. Then Issac then Moses then Jesus Christ then the final Prophet Muhammed. And the prophet is the last messenger of God and has the last revelation the Quran. But each time people went astray and a messenger had to be sent. Now that muslims are going astray Jesus will be sent to guide humans again when the time is right. Look if you don’t know anything about religion don’t call my beliefs silly or call me retarded k? Cuz its obvious you haven’t spent 10 hours researching anything about religion to know even these basics! So if you think your sooo smart and people who believe in God “retarded” maybe its not based on faith maybe many people have seen God guiding them to a path in their life. Its fine if you don’t believe but there is a satan out there and he’s your friend and you listen to what he has to say and you are lead astray. Believe there is no God and you shall find no mercy or no guide, believe in God and you will find God infront of you. Do not bring God down to your level he is above you in all things and is beyond what you can grasp k? Look go read the Quran it talks about people like you, those who choose not to believe, everything you argue it talks about in the Quran. Not because these people have anything intelligent to say but they are there to moch those who believe and have faith but it is they who will be the most humiliating punishment be reserved for. You want more proof of God’s existence?
http://etori.tripod.com/dajjalsystem/judgement.html
Everything there is coming true… Oh btw these were written in 600 A.D.
(see below)
you are really hard hearted for being someone who as christ said “should love one another.”
personally I take no credence in the fact that mohammed was a prophet. he was as much of a prophet as Joseph Smith. if the prophet line would be anything it would be more like this
adam - abraham - krishna - buddha - christ
except the last 3 taught VERY different rules about god than the first 2. Abraham was all about sacrificing animals (a practice taken from the local pagan religions of the day, except they sacrificed humans.) The latter 3 were about self sacrifice. putting others above themselves. Mohammed and Smith were selfish prophets who put themselves above others and used that power to control the followers. it still happens to this day.
prophile,
Will you tell me the part about Vishnu and all that other stuff again?
In the words of Forrest Gump:
“I like that alot.”
I define faith as unjustified belief. We all have faith whether it be in the external world, in our futures, or in God. As you know, a lot of what I argued in this thread was about the difference of degrees of faith. From what I understand, you have faith in the existence of God and you reasons. I argue that the reasons to believe in the Christian God and the God of natural theism aren’t sufficient to justify the belief in any of the God. That, of course, is my personal claim.
Mostly, that is correct. I have other personal reasons why I deny these Gods but it’s hard to articulate all of my thoughts but for arguments sake that’s pretty much the bulk of it.
You would be right in saying that it becomes subjective in the end. I suspend my belief when it comes to an intelligent first cause but the evidence for it is convincing. After that, though, I find it hard to believe in anything more. I just find nothing remotely convincing to think that this intelligent first cause is absolutely perfect or even conscious, for that matter.
When I started this thread my goal was to explain why I feel that faith is no term for belief in any deity. I am very glad to find that you don’t argue God with faith. I feel that the problem with most theists is that they cling on to this dogmatism.
I made a mistake early in this thread to say that there is no evidence for the existence of God. As you said, it was an exaggeration. In my defense, though, there is evidence for many things that aren’t likely to exist like Bigfoot and UFOs and La Chupacabra. I’m not trying to say that evidence for Bigfoot and God are very comparable, just, trying to explain my mistake.
Well that all depends on how you define omnipotence. First of all, I understand the argument for God having omnipotence over this reality. It seems logical. What I don’t understand is why we have to say that God is omnipotent in his transcendent reality as well.
Defining omnipotence as having all-power on this reality I find nothing wrong with the idea of polytheism. If one God undoes the action of another, it doesn’t take from his omnipotence in this reality but on the transcendent reality.
My other argument for polytheism is based on evidence on in this reality. Seeing this universe as some purposeful accomplishment I find it more likely that if intelligence built it that more than one intelligent being, a team of intelligent transcendent beings, built it. Think of how many people it takes to design and create a bridge, or a building, or software. Sure, one person alone has the power to create but the idea of many people or beings is just as likely.
Why suppose any? Why not suspend judgment? If inside a room there were 1 to 10 people would you suppose 1 because of simplicity? Wouldn’t you suspend judgment until you saw what was behind the doors?
How?
Before moving on I’d like to say that if there were a God (huge assumption for the sake of argument) I wouldn’t believe that he acts in our universe. God created the supernaturally yet nothing supernatural ever happens in our reality. If an intelligent first cause created the universe I would believe that he were either gone, dead, or just not participating. I find no convincing evidence that God is watching or acting over us.
Now, the problem that I have with moving from very powerful to perfect is that perfect is way too much to say. You argue simplicity but omnipotence is far far from it. You say that we should give this being as few properties as possible yet you give him [i]all good properties[i]. That is far from simplicity. You give God omnipotence and that grants him omniscience. Omniscience?! That’s a huge and complex property. Giving him omniscience, you could argue, gives him omnipresence. Omnipotence also grants God free will. Omnipotence also grants eternal life. This paragraph could go on and on till you grant this intelligent first cause every single positive attribute that was based on a property that was put on for assumption’s and simplicity’s sake.
This doesn’t look very simple. As a matter of fact, it looks like the most complicated thing comprehendible.
To repeat my argument, why not just say the Big Unknown is an intelligent first cause based on the teleological and cosmological arguments and suspend belief for anything else?
CyruxMafia, could you be more annoying? You are much too hostile to have a serious philosophical discussion with. Obviously, my argument was thought provocative and you have something to prove (which you spelled right this time, by the way). Nevertheless, your defensiveness and your inherent dogmatism do not justify your mindless flames.
As for your argument, it’s interesting and I’ll look into it.
OMG you honnestly think your argument is thought provoking? The Quran says in DETAIL at least 20 times some of the exact arguments you give.
Now since the Quran is the direct word of God given to the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) through the angel Gabriel. Why does God give the arguements you do and says that these people are not intelligent but in fact they are foolish and to them will God reveal himself when they are dead and be raised up before their Lord and be asked “Why did you disbelieve my signs?” “Surely we’d have believed had you shown us an Angel.” But life is a test of your faith and there is no test when you are shown a true sign of God.
See in the end I don’t care that you believe or not I am only here to warn you of great danger.
And as for scythekain if "adam - abraham - krishna - buddha - christ " is what you believe then you really have no intellectual knowledge about any religion and the fact you believe that “Mohammed and Smith were selfish prophets who put themselves above others and used that power to control the followers.” Is propably one of THE most stupidest things I have ever heard in my life. Your entitled to your opinion but your ignorance is so insulting to even compare the two is rediculous Smith was a liar and that is proven. Muhammed is one of the most beloved Prophets to God so please don’t wrong your soul by saying such blasphemy.
Look its fine to have an opinion but only when that opinion is based on fact but some how that is even to much to ask. No one here has shown any understanding of religion what so ever. Hombre your asking for God to fall from the sky into your lap in order for you to believe. Do you think God really wants you to believe if thats you attitude? And scythekain you really need to be arguing with childeren because your arguements are unfounded and ignorant.
Pompous foolishness and inconsequential drivel.
Why do you atheists have to spoil everything?
You know nothing of the ways of the world. Poor old granny who’s on her death-bed and all alone in the world doesn’t want to hear a load of shite couched in pseudo-philosophical mumbo-jumbo to the effect that there is no god and when she dies that’s it - no one gives a damn, glad to get rid of her, only costing the state money to keep her alive, etc., etc…
What about faith then - oh, we can dispense with that, let’s all be faithless, isn’t it more fun, more pleasure? Bunch of hedonistic body-worshippers! Well, some of us believe in ‘spirit’ believe in the abstract, i.e., don’t take things at their face value. Deny god and you deny everything; you deny your body - you cannot prove or disprove its existence: you don’t even know what a body is. You just have some phoney paradigmatic epistemology handed down to you over the generations that you blindly accept.
You see things, in other words, through the spectacles of conditioning. And you think somehow that calling yourself an atheist, or whatever, raises you to some higher plane of understanding. You don’t believe in god, fair enough, but don’t inflict your miserable condition on the rest of us.
Some of us god-fearing folk have gone way beyond your paltry atheism, we have visited areas of our consciousness’ that you don’t even know exist. This is some amazing life and you try to reduce it to fit in with your own myopic view.
Instead of bullshitting about something you know nothing about, and never will know anything about, why don’t you start acting like the philosopher you have pretensions to being? For, from where I sit it’s obvious that you make yourself ridiculous with all this egotistical boasting about atheism!
definitions from dictionary.com :
Is·lam Audio pronunciation of “islam” ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-läm, z-, släm, z-)
n.
- A monotheistic religion characterized by the acceptance of the doctrine of submission to God and to Muhammad as the chief and last prophet of God.
2 - The people or nations that practice Islam; the Muslim world.
- The civilization developed by the Muslim world.
Mor·mon Audio pronunciation of “mormon” ( P ) Pronunciation Key (môrmn) Mormon Church
n.
- An ancient prophet believed to have compiled a sacred history of the Americas, which were translated and published by Joseph Smith as the Book of Mormon in 1830.
- A member of the Mormon Church. Also called Latter-day Saint.
(even though it doesn’t say it in the dictionary mormons worship Joseph smith as the “chief and last prophet to god” as mohammed was. so what makes your false prophet any better than smith? Mohammed is a completely selfish prophet he used his power to try and take over Israel and Islam extremists TO THIS DAY use their religion for “evil” purposes. Why you want to be connected to a religion like that is beyond me.
you want the facts use google I’m too damn lazy to bring up the research right now (plus I’m at work and don’t have that kind of time here.) Mohammed used his religious followers to take over land. The same as Smith!! Like it or not, it’s a fact crux.
How to tell you are in a false religion:
they have more than 20 rules to tell you how to live. (pray towards mecca everyday? come on how controlling can you get.)
they take attention away from an important historical figure like christ or krishna and make you do ridiculous rituals (like those practiced in mormon temples, the ridiculous chants the hare krishna had) to get you closer to “god”.
you are welcome to continue following Islam. why you want to after researching other religions (which I seriously doubt you’ve done) is beyond me. and remember the first noble truth.
“all life is suffering”
Do you really think your faith in the external world is unjustified? With something as universal and important as that, I’d sooner believe that our system of justification is lacking. The way I see it, the need for belief in the outside world or other minds shows us that rationality is not the only source of justified belief.
It seems we’re coming to some sort of understanding here. Could you explain for me, though, what you mean when you distinguish intelligence from consciousness here?
Well, faith is important to my own religious practice- when I see some powerful-seeming argument for atheism, faith is what causes me to research a defeater for that argument as opposed to being immediately convinced by it. I've never seen the use of referring to faith when talking to the unbeliever, though.
As far as most theists are concerned, I have no problem with most theists believing on faith alone, simply because not everybody has the time or ability to research these things deeper. We can't all be philosophers, and non-philosophers are entitled to have beliefs too.
That's a good point. Something I wanted to say that hasn't come up yet may relate to this. When I started reaching my personal 'age of reason', I had with me several beliefs that I gained just because "Mommy told me so". Belief in God was one, belief in Santa Claus was another. My belief in Santa Claus was easily dispatched, as soon as I realized that adults didn't believe in him, and that he was an intentional fantasy. For a little while, I felt that way about God- it seemed like all the smart people were atheists. I've since learned that's not the case- There are plenty of people who believe in God, from philosophers to scientists and etc. I'm not using that as a real argument, what I'm saying is, the existence of that intellectual community of theists is part of why I feel no pressing need to drop my theism, unless and until some compelling argument moves me to do so. When a skeptic comes on too strong, and implies that all theists are deluded, or that all the evidence is 'obviously flawed' or non-existant, I balk because I've read enough to at least know that isn't so- this is a real, live debate among intelligent people.
I say all this to illustrate a difference between my religious beliefs, and other sorts of beliefs we get for inadequate reasons as children.
Can you describe what you mean when you say that God is part of another, transcendant reality? You’ve used this terminology a few times, and I’ve never been quite clear on it.
[i]That's[/i] Where the theistic arguments come in. Those are what suggest that something created the universe, and that something is probably intelligent. Simplicity demands we conclude there is only 1 of these things until we have a reason to think otherwise.
Keep in mind, also, that theism was never posited as a scientific theory to explain something- it seems you treat it that way sometimes. Instead, view the theistic arguments as showing that these religious beliefs are [i]compatible[/i] and perhaps [i]likely[/i] based on what we know. These arguments were never intended as the foundational [i]reason[/i] for religious belief, as far as I know.
No, because the evidence at my disposal would be "From 1 to 10 people are in this room". You're making the uncertainty of the number of people part of the evidence. To illustrate my point, however, while we may not be able to conclude how many people are in the room, it is [i]simplicity[/i] that would keep us from forming the belief "There are 1-10 people in the room, and also 1-10 cats". The idea of there being cats in the room as well doesn't conflict with the evidence we have, but it would be irrational to believe in the cats without further evidence, and simplicity is the sole reason why, as far as I can tell.
As far as I can tell, our evidence is "some agent created universe". The idea that "maybe it was several agents" seems to be added complexity that needs a reason before it can be considered.
Many thousands, if not millions of people would disagree with this claim, and they would say they have first-hand experience to the contrary. Atheism is far too easy to argue for if we just assume that nothing supernatural has ever happened.
I don’t Omnipotence as being relatively complex.
I see Omnipotence as “Being able to do all logically possible things”.
I see Very Powerful as “Being able to do things A-K, but not L-T, and only U-Y under condition Z”.
That’s why I see Omnipotence as being more simple than lesser degrees of power. I would argue the same for Omniscience and so on. Does this attitude seem faulty to you?
[/quote]
[/quote]
(even though it doesn’t say it in the dictionary mormons worship Joseph smith as the “chief and last prophet to god” as mohammed was. so what makes your false prophet any better than smith? Mohammed is a completely selfish prophet he used his power to try and take over Israel and Islam extremists TO THIS DAY use their religion for “evil” purposes. Why you want to be connected to a religion like that is beyond me.
you want the facts use google I’m too damn lazy to bring up the research right now (plus I’m at work and don’t have that kind of time here.) Mohammed used his religious followers to take over land. The same as Smith!! Like it or not, it’s a fact crux.
(see below)
ok, since you clearly think “I know nothing of mohammeds life” I won’t argue that with you until I pull up some proof. clearly you being so educated on world religion have proof BESIDES THE QURAN that shows mohammed being the last prophet of god.
another point of interest though is how angry and hateful your posts seem. seriously that is how you are coming off.
First i hate ignorante people and i am ‘ANGRY’ because what you are saying is Blasphemy in my religion. And actually in the original Bibles they did talk of the coming last Messenger but since the original Bibles were burn corrupted and badly translated the likes of you never read about the final messenger. And the fact is the Christians changed their religion around in the Council of Nicea and screwed everything up.
first, I’m not being ignorant. second your borderline breaking a rule in this thread:
i) No ad hominem arguments
This is not a playground. In order to produce high quality philosophical discussions we expect the posts to contain a good level of courtesy and respect. If something has angered you, walk away from the computer and come back when you have a clear head. It helps no-one to start throwing insults around the place. This rule is two-fold: Do not use personal attacks to further your argument (argumentum ad hominem) and don’t use insults at all.
I thought about how to present this evidence… in private message or in a new topic or what… I just decided to do it here, so that anyone in here even considering islam can see the truth.
first this to start things off from the Qur’an.
Sura 17.22: “Do not associate with Allah any other god, lest you sit down despised, neglected.†[By his own mouth, Allah is NOT the God of Avraham, Yitzhak, and Ya`akov!]
I’ve noted that several times you’ve said that mohammed is part of the prophetic line that he is the last of and christ was before him. Christ prayed to the god of Abraham, NOT ALLAH, which as we’ll see as this continues is a figment of Mohammed’s imagination.
first is this which covers the rise of islam (from a messianic jew site, read their disclaimer at the top before you judge their information. it is the truth and they are not out to cause hatred.)
familybible.org/Teaching/Rel … fIslam.htm
so for a little “balance” this site presents a brief overview of Islam and leaves out any of the “damning” stuff that is in the other one, like the city siege.
religioustolerance.org/isl_intr.htm
then we’ll go through the similiarities of mormonism and islam (some of this info is repetitive)
first
bible.ca/islam/islamic-mormo … rities.htm
second
danishgrove.com/yildiz/writi … onism.html
third
basicchristian.org/muslim_mormon.html
I know what your thinking crux, what about all the lies and death mormons have caused? well guess what mormons DON’T teach that to prospective members and definately don’t teach the true history of mormonism to current members they are left intentionally in the dark, and when something damning against the religion comes up they are just told that science is inexact.
How do I recognize the similiarities? because I was a MORMON. I left the church 5 years ago and went searching other religions and thoroughly researched Islam, it is so similiar to mormonism it’s frankly a bit scary.
and here’s my final thought. You won’t read any of this, you’ll continue to think I’m uneducated prick just trying to get you to leave islam. whatever your free to practice what you want but the minute you call someone out on a lie you better be damned well ready to accept the truth.
edit: changed below to above
this is another of your futile arguments that really needs to be backed up with fact. several times throughout this thread you have said "the original bibles were burned and corrupted (again as you’ll see above mormons say the exact same thing) christians didn’t change the religion in Nicene, they took the writings that supported their beliefs. Pauls letters become the fundamental basis for the whole of christianity, and the whole of Islam which started AFTER the bible as it is now.
“saying is blasphemy in my religion” again a MAJOR similiarity with mormonism anything said against the prophet is a lie. anything said against the religion is a lie. the religion couldn’t stand up on it’s own and the creators knew it so they had to throw in that disclaimer. do you think because native americans are known to be asian in descent and not jewish that it will stop the Mormon church from getting more mormons? no. of course not. They’ll continue their lie as Islam will continue it’s lie.
I have nothing against the PEOPLE of either of these religions, including you crux. I am against what it’s turned you into. I feel people are free to practice whatever religion they want to. BUT as soon as one of them or a group of them start spouting false information about their religion or other religions I feel I need to step in to help balance the conversation. I’ve made a study of nearly every world religion, and am tolerant of all of them… but as soon as they start to spout intolerances towards other people or religions that is a wrong that needs to righted.