God of War.

Over the years myself and JT have had many attempts at pulling the rug of religion out from under God’s clay feet. Here’s another.

I was sitting on the balcony today reading the newspaper. The headline was “something blah-blah senseless killing” And that got me thinking. The killing wasn’t important so much as the senselessness of it. As if that adjective was necessary to drive home the evil of the whole business. That the killing served no obvious purpose, was wasteful somehow, achieving no sensible goal.

Then one of the cats that uses our small garden as a stomping ground and occaisional creche tootled by, and for some reason I remembered my vivisectionist/terratologist days. Myself and a bunch of variously snot-nosed kids straight out of highschool sat around a very clean table killing animals, disecting out their wombs and checking their near-term young for chemically induced mutations. That was killing too, but not senseless in that it served a purpose that outweighed its atrocity. And so protected by a sense of a greater good, our daily quota of death lost us not a wink of sleep.

Then I imagined the horror I would inspire if I were to catch that cat, and repeat now the process of disection I had undertaken a thousand times prior. And I wondered how doing it would effect me, without now being able to wear the handy justifying mantle of science. I decided I’d feel pretty bad. Lucky old cat.

Anyway. I then assumed that most people, if not all, have an (inate) aversion to killing not so much as an act in itself, but only in it as an act without some sanctioned or sensible purpose.

I think I’m pretty safe in that assumption. Afterall, I’m pretty sure that if I went up to some random bloke or blokette in the street and told them to kill another random person right then, they’d probably refuse.

But then I remembered an old conversation I had with Polemarchus on ILP a long time ago. He posted up what I think was part of a diary of a German woman who had worked at one of the death camps. She spoke of camp life, then blithely went on to describe how she was going to redecorate her kitchen with the money she’d earned there. It most certainly wasn’t the writing of some evil psychotic madwoman, but just the hum-drum story of an average housewife in an extraordinary setting. She, like me and the poor stretched out cat-corpses, lost not one wink of sleep.

I then kinda made an another assumption - that anyone can do anything, given the right justificatory program. In fact, given enough justification, there is no such thing as evil. at least not within the sphere of people that justification encompasses, it becomes simply distasteful, but necessary. Sensible. Like taking out the trash lest it fester in the bin. Or cleaning the goop out of the fridge.

With killing people, beyond the already over explored notions of kinship and empathy, there’s something else to be taken into account - our predictions of consequence. Like Dr. Doolittle’s Push-me-Pull-you, there’s our natural aversion to kill-you-kill-me.

So, how to set things up so it becomes so sensible to kill others that it doesn’t seem like anything in particular…?

First, you need some greater cause that the killing would serve. There are any number available - freedom, nationalism, protection, ‘what about the children’ etc. whatever, as long as it’s fairly lofty, by whatever standards lofty is judged by given the sociopolitical umbrella of the day. I’ve an idea “lofty” started pretty low back in the old times.

Then second, some way of detaching fear of consequence from the act. Probability shifters like better weapons and armour. Insurance against the worst - a “retrieve our guys at all costs” policy. Anti recognition and retaliation devices - secrecy, masks, uniformity etc.

Nothing spectacular. Then I noticed that pretty much all the justifications, save nationalism, were reactive - they needed some threatening or oppressing force to render them sensible. Doable.

But then any good general knows that the safest and most effective strike is a pre-emptive one. Well, unless there are nukes involved. So, how to get harmless people to kill other harmless people without some kind of perceivable threat perpetrated by either group prior…?

It’s not nice, but in terms of group prosperity, and given that after a certain point in our species’ pre-history man became man’s greatest predator, it becomes quite a good thing to kill everyone around you who isn’t bound to you by blood.

Anyway, me and JT have tried various tracks to explain why religion could be so prolifigate, unless God was real. We’ve tried neuroscience - that human kind just naturally has a bit of the brain that for some reason renders us susceptable to visions of etheric and all powerful beings. We’ve tried theories of group coherence, and motivation. We’ve tried logical extrapolations of naturally percieved comparitive scales - Jack is stronger than Jake, John is stronger than Jack, leading to the assumption that there is something stronger than John, however strong he may be. We’ve tried a lot of things.

But anyway. Whatever the reason, pretty much every established culture alive has some kind of attendant religion. And the most established cultures, have pretty violent religions, especially those that have a history of intercultural warfare - unrelated group X against group Y.

Perhaps you see where I’m going with this. :laughing:

Wouldn’t it be ironic if the principle socio-political advantage of having religion at a cultural level, and having a tendency to be easily inspired toward blind faith in some kind of God(s) at an individual level, was to make it easier to personally achieve the degree of justification, and the accompanying neurochemical states involved in overcoming our natural aversion to violence and killing, that would enable pre-emptive strikes on other neighboring tribes/cultures, without any prior physical threat on their part, by lifting the perception of threat (and consequence) into a more metaphysical realm…?

ie. The cliché of “All established cultures have religions” is autocatalytic - in that cultures with religions kill cultures without.

Which leaves us with God as a social tool to inspire atrocity, rather than alleviate it.

Iz funny, no…?

I think this OP brings up a good point… but it’s a bit tainted by directing it at religion.

Any kind of “purpose” to anything which is treated as an absolute fact or truth, rather than a pragmatic context to reduce one’s likelihood of subjective discomfort (or “suffering”, or “evil”, or whatever one calls it), has this potential. The usual concept of “God” is simply an easier target because it’s more clearly irrational…

Upholding freedom, fighting terrorism, defending honor, blah blah blah.

Hey Matt,

Why…? It’s an extrapolation.

As I said, these are reactive modifiers to behaviour - To uphold freedom, someone must first be attempting to take it from you, or indeed have already taken it. To fight terrorism, there must first be terrorists. To defend your honour, someone must first have infringed upon it.

Religions, by having a metaphysic component, require no physical action on the part of another to percieve, or concieve of them, as a threat. They are first strike mechanisms.

The problem is that “honor”, “freedom”, “terrorism” etc. are not simple things one can point to in the environment; they are very abstract symbols which fluctuate depending on the individual. They also depend on other “rights” or “wrongs” (why is it right to be free, why is terrorism wrong… why is that which terrorism infringe on right, what is honor and why is it right to be honorable about some right thing–and why is that right?).

Whenever someone assumes a very abstract word is “good”, and “right”, and let that guide a “right” purpose, their is a potential for war, killing, etc.

Perhaps the range of reaction fluctuates on an individual basis, but as I said, that’s not the point. The point is the holder of these values is passive, and his or her capacity for violence, latent - until some kind of provocation or direct trespass is actively perpetrated by a second party.

It’s not all that abstract though, is it. Not really. Go down to any boozer on any night of the week, and you’ll find plenty of consensus concerning honour. Stroll past the place where the twin towers used to be, and you’ll find plenty of consensus regarding terrorism. Ask anyone black, and again, you’ll find pretty sharp lines concerning freedom, and its lack.

But again, these are secondary concerns. Concrete physical-realm causitives and effectors. Religion, and to some extent radical nationalism, contain meta-physic components, requiring no physically active second party to provoke violent behaviour.

Richard Dawkins would love the idea :slight_smile:

The leader probably doesn’t even believe what he’s preaching, especially early on in the history of the religion. It’s a tool to extract subservience to his rule and to encourage military expansion to further increase his power. Oops, brought Nietzsche into this.

The problem is your idea is grounded (even of not consciously) in the idea what a lot of people (as in most in a certain place) agree on/how they would see it = real.

I’ll clarify what I mean below.

What actions of a second party? It takes a mind to label some (subjectively experienced) “external” object as some A, B or C which calls for (or condones, or whatever) actions X, Y, Z.

Well sure, a bunch of people see things the same way. By abstract I don’t mean complicated (like an idea far surpassing some quality of thought incapable of a drunkard), I mean symbols that–rather than directly referring to some phenomenon (one can point to in a photograph, for instance), like a tree–only get meaning from describing “interactions” between concrete things. There are a lot of abstracts that are required for “Honor” to even mean anything.

Right… you go into a group or area that is identified by certain events, the people of that group/area will have picked up certain key (abstract) words that they use to describe or explain that event.

But exactly what is “Terrorism” and “Freedom” outside of their definitions applying to those specific circumstances?

Religion, and to some extent radical nationalism, contain meta-physic components, requiring no physically active second party to provoke violent behaviour.
[/quote]
You think you can think about something without coloring it with concepts/memories not (as in, no longer) physically existing?

What you experienced is certainly influenced by whatever is “out there”, but they are not even close to the same thing…

we’re all subject to illusions and (to a varying extent) resulting delusions. Until one realizes it there really isn’t much of a difference (in terms of avoiding ignorant, delusional thinking) between one’s “atheist” views as those by which they oppose.

I realize “the leader” you speak of isn’t Richard Dawkins, but the statement would make a good deal of sense, that way (with the exception of him not believing his nonsense).

Religion, along with everything else man has access to, has always been used to aid violence.
It will continue to do so in the future.

So will Science, Politics, Economics, etc…

In short…so will man.

Violence is part of what man does; always has…always will.
Sensible or senseless doesn’t matter.

Hey Matt, thanks for your replies,

“Even if not consciously” huh…? :laughing: No offence, but you probably live somewhere where there is no strong culture of honour. Here it’s pervasive to the point where my local grocer shotgunned the flowerseller on the stall next to his after said flowerseller dared to place a few of his bouquets on the grocer’s stallspace once too often. In the east brothers are sent to kill sisters for besmirching the familly’s good name through the harmless crime of loving the ‘wrong’ man. Honour is real. You can see it splattered all over the sidewalk. You can see it in the shaken heads of the lookers on, that particular twisted expression that mixes condemnation along with acceptance and understanding.

Fish know nothing of NaCl, nor of chemistry, they never hold symposiums on “You and salt - does it cause wrinkles…?” but through the simple condition of swimming in it constantly for generations, have developed to encompass its properties nonetheless.

I’ll clarify what I mean below.

I never trust sentences with more than one set of parentheses involved. :laughing:

It takes some sort of recognition system sure, I wouldn’t go so far as to specify something so high falutin’ as a ‘mind’ however. Our immune systems do a fairly reasonable job of discerning ‘self/not self’ without so much as a single neuron to rub between them.

All that is required for honour to mean anything at a visceral level is a girlfriend. Or property, or a good reputation. You are right, I’ll stop kidding around. But despite that you rightly note there are abstracts involved in anything, there is a dividing line.

Sexual ‘honour’ is an abstract combined with a concrete physical anchor - a woman or a man. Proprietory ‘honour’ is based upon a physical structure, and visibly demarked boundaries. A reputation - the most abstract of the three - is still a communal thought object that is built up around the real and physical actions and orations of the one bearing that reputation through time.

And this is the level of foundational physicality that religious abstracts lack, giving them a dangerous flexibility of what can be interpreted as threat. If you step over my fence, trespass is obvious - even if the concept of ‘real’ ownership, and what it means is not, beyond the mundane level. Where is the similar fence to my belief set…? And how can you ever know which side of it you are on…?

But the - real, physical - event came first. The words later. With religion it is the other way around. “In the beginning was the word” remember…?

They are foggy, dissolute and un-motivating of action. And this is exactly what I mean. Without a concrete, physical example in the real world for concepts like terrorism and freedom to coalesce around they remain relatively dormant. And so do the populace.

But again I must stress, religious affront, necessitating by its nature no foundation in physicality, may crystallize around something invisible to the hapless transgressor. Spurring violence and retribution for… seemingly nothing.

No, of course not. But then, the story of Little Bo Peep contains references to familliar objects - sheep, shepherdesses, crooks - without containing a single ounce of reality. There is a difference between thinking about real events and linking them to abstract generalisations of conduct, and thinking - even if using ‘real’ experiential terms - of unreal events and linking them to similar behavioural codes. Reality - being constrained by the finite - carries with it its own natural balance.

A terrorist/anti-terrorist force face the same problems of logistics, secrecy, transport, economics. There are limits to the degree of terror/retribution they can generate simply because both themselves and the materials they use are real.

Unreality, however has no such constraints, save imagination. Which upsets the balance. The Pharohs prove intractable and boom - it’s raining frogs. God gets pissed with mankind and suddenly Noah’s packing elephants into a big boat.

In reality, of the non-magical type, I can judge the consequences of both my actions, and yours with a reasonable degree of accuracy. But chuck miracles and magic into my concept of ‘reality’ and suddenly I have no such guarrentees. I don’t know about you, but that would give me a really twitchy trigger finger.

Say some kid with a spray-can writes “ILP ROOLZ” all over the side of my house, and I see him. I run that kid down, grab him by the ear, and make him clean it up. My house, my decision about punishment.

Now say that same kid does the same thing to my sacred place of worship, and again I catch him. Here, I am not the owner, even if I built the place. God is the owner. So now, regarding punishment, I’m left with second guessing God’s will. And since he’s:

a) Not around in any concrete form to ask.
b) Has been also known to punish his own devotees for not punishing other people sufficiently…

I’m going to err on the heavy side. So spray-can kid gets flayed, and gets to clean the paint off the wall with his own skin.

A magical system of behavioural governance both over-reacts, and reacts in an unpredictable fashion in response to hidden and unfathomable stimulus.

I’m not an atheist. Simply irreligious. And on the meta-physical world, where nothing matters at all, you are right, no difference.

But, and this is the ‘but’ you seem not to be getting (a forgivable lapse btw. I also used to want to hoist everything up into the air where it can be carefully examined from all sides, and carefully wiped clean of the muck of reality - freed of consequence and hurt) is that these delusions, when applied to reality are not the same.

Delusions of themselves, don’t kill you. The real, fleshy people believing in them, equipped with equally real pointy bits of metal, however, do.

You want me to reply to that, or was it just a personal mantra…?

Roll with it however it strikes you.

The words are beyond my mouth, so they are no longer mine to dictate.

Lovely OP…

I almost hate to say this, but I kinda agree with matthatter’s remarks about you’re excelent points being cheapened by the mention of religion… though for different reasons.

It strikes me that what you observed was not that man overcomes his aversion to murder by way of a higher purpose or greater good/casue but by way of a stronger desire. After all a starving man might very well kill to simply feed himself. Given that you’ve read up on your neuroscience you likely know that most rationalizations tend to come after the fact, so it’s simply not true that people need the justification prior.

Also killing BECAUSE you enjoy killing is scary for those of us who simply CANNOT relate, not because it’s “senseless”, but because it’s alien and dangerous hence us calling them “monsters” and “evil”. I feel much the same way about people who get turned on being kicked in the nuts by a woman wearing big boots. I can’t relate at all so they put me off a little but they don’t worry me… unless they start kicking the rest of us in the nuts thinking they are doing us a favor… then I’d be worried!

I’ll grant you that religion does tend to detach our judgement from reality by introducing “things to desire” that don’t actually exist like the love of your God or entrance to heavan or what have you. But we can’t just want something because we heard about it… it dosn’t “connect” to any emotion automatically, that part is conditioned. And that conditioning to WANT the love of a god or entrance to heavan (despite never having known either)… that could be done in regard to anything. You could condition people to WANT a communist state, such that the desire could drown out their own survival instinct and have them commit suicide attacks to see it happen. That kind of conditioning is usually cultural.

The fact that religion conditions you to want things ultimately detached from reality only makes it harder to un-condition you… The communist might be turned off by evidence of how communist states have failed in the past, evidence of how human nature simply rules out such a system by forcing internal conflict ect. There’s nothing you can do to un-condition the religious person, short of constant and continues criticism of his stupidity for believing that crap. (his social instincts will take care of the rest). but usually they have “support groups” they turn to, who re-inforce the whole thing… and tell him to ignore you.

Anyway… Those are the thoughts that came to mind…

Hey, Stumps,

Okay. Look. This is why what you wrote is useless from the POV. of creative discourse.

ie. “Everything, made or utilized by man, is used either directly or indirectly toward violent ends.”

iee. This statement contains no distinctions or qualifiying scale. A teddy-bear is equal to a jihad, or a doorknob.

ieee. How can I possibly get a foothold on that…? Like climbing a glass wall in my fluffy slippers.

Accompanied by the “has always been” from the preceding sentence it also negates any temporal distinctions. Add some woolen mittens to the slipper-glass-wall climbing scenario.

A redundant statement, since all three are covered in the blanket statement you made prior.

ie. “Everything, made or utilized by man, in fact man too is used either directly or indirectly toward violent ends.”

I’m now seeing some big guy hitting another guy, with a guy.

This is a classic “everything is everything” post. And when everything is everything, then nothing is nothing and something is something and I get a headache wondering why someone came online, and used the miraculous power of mankind’s technology to write:

“Blue is blue, and that’s it.”

Ice-cream is part of what man does.
Whistling is part of what man does.
Menstruating is part of what woman does.
What man does is part of what man does.

Well, you are right apparently - it seems that, sensible or senseless, you can write whatever the hell you like, and expect it to be regarded as deep, meaningful and erudite.

Lovely. So catchy. Ooooh. Deep. Emo-deep. Except… Wtf. does it mean…?

That your words tumbled like so many sheep out from behind their toothy pen, and now that they’re capering all over the field in a random fashion you - duh - forgot your sheepdog…?

C’mon The Stumps you are:

a) the moderator of the religious forum, and as such, supposedly expert enough to judge the worth of the postings here, implying a certain degree of theological accomplishment.
b) a general member of a philosophy site, and as such familliar enough with debate and fallacy and general linguistic expression to know better than to toss out such trite soundbytes, and expect anything other than what I’ve just supplied.

I’m missing Uccisore right now.

Up your game man, up your game.

You say honor is real because of the significant affects it has on people (by leading people to act certain ways). But how is this kind of honor (going so far to kill people who are not endangering anything other than a prolonged “blasphemy” of one’s “honor”) different than the religious beliefs you speak of (in terms of their potential effects resulting from “metaphysical” ideas/interpretations of physical “forms”)?

I made the mistake of not being clear enough, particularly when I mentioned freedom. I was trying to say that that word is ambiguous and isn’t always practical (just as one’s concept of God isn’t always practical). I’ll try to clarify by giving a relevant example of freedom, and a similar relevant example of God.

By the way, by “practical” I mean a concept that aids one in minimizing short and long-term subjective angst/suffering/discomfort/etc.

So one has a house one worked hard to get, and that is their place to rest and not be bothered when one is not out working or “compromising” ones potential comfort when going out to shop or whatever (we are all bound to be offended/made uncomfortable when going into a large group of varying peoples). One stomachs any distaste in public in order to not increase their own discomfort, as well as that of other’s, by actively trying to curb any minor irritant. However, when one is home one should have the right to relax, calm oneself, “recharge”, etc. In this case, another stepping into their space and degrading it (in a way that taints the peace of one’s personal “sanctuary”) can be described as a violation of one’s freedom. This makes sense to me, because freedom in this case is clearly defined by something practical to both the peace of that person, and the peace of others that may be compromised if that person can’t rest at his own own.

The concept of God can be similar. For this example I’ll simply define God as an idea that their is some being
(external to one’s mind and other’s minds–by “mind” I simply mean the subjective experience of a moment, dependent on the Homo Sapien nervous system)
that deems some meaning/purpose (and resulting values) to existence. As long as this concept is used in such a way to promote that practical subjective long-term alleviation/prevention of suffering, it is as practical as certain concepts of “freedom”, right? And, if it is not–oftentimes, if the word is taken too seriously, as if there is definitely some external thing that is known as it is, rather than merely being “known” according to one’s own mind–it can lead to (at the very least) impractical results.

I’m just trying to make the point that, as long as these words are grounded in the idea that “wrong” pretty much comes down to what one’s mind deems wrong (the only way one knows/understands wrong), and that “wrong” itself is that which feels “wrong”–that which one wants to escape–rather than some externally wrong thing according to some actually existing (and yet somehow subjectively known…) external being (whether that be “God” or “Honor”), they can both be practical.

Certain religions/definitions of God/faiths/etc. do seriously impede the goal of preventing avoidable discomfort/pain/suffering, but that is also the case for (words that are also very abstract and can mean different things to different people, such as) “freedom”, “honor”, etc.

I thought you brought up a potential good point, but (like Dawkin’s The God Delusion) to focus it on religion misses the mark. I’m not defending religion in general, you know (I don’t consider myself a theist or an atheist either)…

Tab,
What Stumps posted was important given the goal of your OP. What he has raised are obstacles, questions about the end you seek, to which criticising religion is just but a means. Your means/end idea may be flawed, resting on assumptions about the nature of man that are ill defined or incorrect.
Yeah, sure, let’s get the rug out from under religious feet- let us show how it promotes the very thing it claims to alleviate- we cannot demonstrate that God is a fiction, so let’s refute religion by reducing it to an absurdity.
What Stumps is throwing in there is a monkey wrench that is, expectedly, not that well received by you. He did not deny that religion can be reduced to such an absurdity–it can be-- but that nothing is really gained by it.

Nietzsche, through his “Madman”, cried that “God is dead”, and immediately asked what shall we replace Him with- not out of a conscious choice but as if God and ideology was a natural disposition of man. God is then merely superceded. If you object religion because of “it’s” violence, you must address where human aggression begins and where it ends, or, to say it differently, whether aggression is a predicate of religion. As I see it, religious aggression is NOT different from scientific aggression. You might still dislike religious aggression and like scientific aggression because scientific aggression has a sensible, physical value but that is a prejudice that only the physical has value. Science itself is but a faith. In the name of science, just as in the name of faith, thousands were made to suffer. Of course the scientist does not see the damage he or she inflicts as aggression…just as any good inquisitor.

Killing people with a clear conscience can be done in the name of many different things, not just religion. It will always be “sensible” from someone’s perspective. This is just the way we are. Does it upset you that we reduce politics and economics to the status of religion, or as guilty as religion? You shouldn’t be. It may seem like robbing you of all dicerning, but I would have said it just to make you aware of how arbitrary your agenda is, and the distance between your perspective and reality. You propose a vision that is itself a faith and religious.

Omar

Oh come on!

I could say the same about your whole post! You’re agenda is to make people stop thinking poorly of religion so you’re downplaying the role it plays… what Tab wrote ruined the rosy picture of religion that you would like everyone to have and that made you write an emotional respone. I’m only saying this “to make you aware of how arbitrary your agenda is, and the distance between your perspective and reality.”

That’s the problem when people don’t actually present arguments or alternative perspectives for the other to argue against and just dish out some broad generalizations that are worthless like “human’s are violent, that’s just the way we are” when you could just as easily have said “humans are non-violent”… Allot of people go their whole lives without ever getting in a real figtht much less killing another human… So where does that get us? That’s right… nowhere!

The question is: WHEN are humans violent and WHY? That’s what Tab was adressing… and nothing you nor stumpy have said adressed that!

Tab

I see you posted right after I did so you might have missed my post… In case you did, read it… I’d like to hear your thoughts.

Thankyou for your replies, Omar, MadMan and Matt, please allow me a little time to put the kids to bed, then I’ll answer.

Hey MMP, thanks for replying.

Murder and killing are different things. I only specify killing. But, fair enough, you’re right, with behaviour, the strongest desire, or grouped desires, overrules the weaker, and manifests itself in action.

You bring up good examples of two states. The starving man, and the sociopathic killer.

Let us imagine that I’m on an island with someone else, isolated, with limited food supplies. We’re not stupid, so we begin to ration what food we have strictly. Now, I feel hungry. And because hunger is a physical thing, something pretty much pan-human, I can feel pretty certain that the other guy is too. My state, reflects his state. I get hungrier, and I again surmise that the other guy does too. I do not know for certain, but I’m pretty sure. No help comes.

We start to catch each other looking at each other’s staches. I know he’s thinking about taking mine, because I’m thinking about taking his. Only the degree of seriousness differs. Maybe he’s only idly day-dreaming, maybe he’s already sharpening a stick while I sleep. I begin to starve, and guess that so does he.

But because hunger is universally shared, as a motivator toward behaviour, violent or otherwise, it is transparent. Understandable. And as such, can be planned for. I have other choices except violence. I could:

  • Just talk about it. Ritualise the business of eating. Cement some kind of agreement.
  • Just scoff all my food right now, and remove the temptation, at least until we turn cannibal.
  • Wait till he’s asleep, and go hide my stache, then subsequently eat only at times when he’s not conscious of it.
  • I could, if the island allows, just bugger off on my own. Hiding my trail.

And with violence, I could pre-empt him, and bash in his brains first. All of these alternatives are available to me, because we share common physical motivations.

Now, say I am a man with some weird fetish for bow-ties. I have a vast collection, and wear a new one every day. Completely harmless, if a little eccentric. Now, say I get a new neighbor. What I don’t know is that this man is a recovering psycho-killer, who complulsively slaughters anyone wearing a red bow-tie with yellow polkadots. Unfortunately, I have such a bow-tie, and it’s on the rack for friday. Today’s Monday. I see this guy everyday, because we share a mailbox, and for some reason, check our mail at the same time every morning - 7am sharp.

Monday - 7am - “Hi neighbor.” “Howdy.”
Tuesday - 7am - “Yo, howzitgoin…?” “Eh - same ol’ same ol’.'”
Thursday - 7am - “Hi man…” “Sup dude…?”
Friday - 7am - “Mornin’…” “ARRRGGGGHHHH” hackslashstabstabtwistgonadstomp.

I couldn’t plan, because his core motivator, being arbitrarily conceptual, not to mention wholly personal and irrational - with no root in any shared physical state I could have used my own experience to predict, did not allow it. It was untransparent, hidden from view. The only outcome was abrupt and cataclysmic violence, or no violence at all.

Admittedly, these are highly polarized examples, but I hope they illustrate why I’m trying to emphasize the difference created by the lack of an intuitive physical basis to religious behavioural codes, when compared to behavioural codes based around real physical states, shared, to a greater or lesser extent, by everyone.

I don’t really want to go into conditioning, because it makes it sound like it’s necessary to have a conditioner, and a conditionee. There doesn’t have to be. Simple generalized exposure is enough.

Hey Matthatter,

Well, like the bow-tie killer I mentioned to MMP, the difference is in the predictability of honour. Everyone has it to a greater or lesser degree. So upon first meeting, I can assume you have it. I can also assume it’s probably based on something similar to my own sense of honour - because our physicality, and the requirements of preserving our physical (and social, to a lesser degree) selves within societies as human beings are similar also. So straight off, I know there are some things I cannot say - “Your mother is a whore” for example. Nor should I make a pass at his wife, or slap his children, or take a piss in his sink.

But with religions, and religious criteria for transgressions… There is not necessarily common ground, because there is a hidden, untransparent non-physical agenda, that I cannot intuit from past experience based on my own physicality. And this ignorance, could possibly prove fatal.

Imagine I’m a tourist, back in the medieval times. In my country we believe the world is round, goes round the sun, and have the maths to prove it. I make the mistake of getting really drunk, afterall, I’m on holiday, and spout off about this down the local pub, near a monastry. Next thing I know, I’m banged up in a cell, with a red-hot poker up my arse, being asked somewhat stridently to recant my blasphemy and what kind of wood I’d like tossed on my pyre.

“I didn’t know guv. Honest I didn’t.”

Yeah, I thought your definition was something along those lines, and yes, I completely agree, from such a perspective, concepts such as religion, freedom, and whatever do blur. I agree with you violently, rather than oppose. But… But, but, but… That’s not the kind of practicality I’m trying to draw attention to.

With freedom, and property, however metaphysic you wish to get, they are still, at their most base level, anchored in the body.

Property: the first thing, and perhaps the only thing I truly ‘own’ is my body. The first fence I errect - this side mine, that side yours - is the one that dilineates my personal space. The distance to which you can approach without me getting antsy. All other structures I may purchase later, all other conceptual spheres I may demark as my territory, mental, social or physical at some time in the future, remain, at base complexifications of this initial physical state of being, and as such, remain predictable, intuitive.

But, what bright-line boundaries can I intuit for your soul…? How can I know where the welcome mat ends, and the armed response begins…?

The same with ‘freedom’ - the most basic, is that of freedom of movement. An aversion to being physically constrained. All other freedoms are extrapolated from this. get someone to tie you up and leave you for an indefinite time if you don’t believe me. :laughing:

I’m leery of Dawkin’s seemingly fanatic atheism myself, but to be honest, I think, and have certainly belaboured in this thread, that the magical/physical divide bears a little stressing.