Heaven and Hell

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
41

Iambiguous, winks are for people who think they have power, but don’t.

Sorry Ierrellus… I had to put iambiguous in their place

42

You said that you would stay out of this thread.

So STAY OUT.

43

Come on, I gave you a chance on this thread…

…to bring your points out into the real world.

Sorry, I just couldn’t resist going with Phyllo on this one. :sunglasses:

44

I will. Iambiguous went too far with an insult against me that thought would never be replied to. Phyllo.

Iambiguous is terrified to talk to me.

Not terrified to scorn me when there’s the idea I won’t reply.

Iambiguous would NEVER get in a debate with me (as you suggested)

45

You are so lucky that I don’t have admin privileges.

Start a thread with Biggus.

Now FUCK OFF

46

I have no interest in being in this thread phyllo.

Iambiguous stepped over the line.

47

Iambiguous is so terrified of debating me that there’s no response to me. He will NEVER debate me.

But when iambiguous says that I’m a piece of shit in a thread I promised not to reply to…

I hope you can understand why I interjected.

I literally have no interest in this thread.

I think it’s moronic.

48

Holy cop-out, Batman.

All you had to do was a) admit you don’t actually love philosophy, or b) actually engage.

But, sure, let’s all gang up on the court jester turned scapegoat. I mean me, not Ec, or … me & Ec.

It’s you & me, Ec, but they don’t wanna boot me cuz I got… well. Oh, wait, I was told to run along. Def a fat joke. Hm… you know what I got? Fricken homework.

group side hug

49

I’ll take a side hug.

I hope phyllo understands that it was iambiguous who started this.

I’m not even adding content to the topic:

Iambiguous totally trolled me in this thread thinking I wouldn’t reply.

Don’t use my name in this thread iambiguous.

50

I never meant to imply that there “should be” such a doctrine, only that there is one. I mentioned it in the context of the question how minor a sin could send them to hell. According to the Calvinist the unregenerate are “totally depraved” so they can do nothing but sin. “A bad tree bears bad fruit.” [Matt. 7:17]

In my experience people are not totally depraved. We are all capable of good as well as evil.

Here’s a six minute cartoon from philosopher and professed atheist Alain de Botton defending of Augustine’s concept of original sin on a psychological basis. youtu.be/hBAxUBeVfsk

The cartoon supports Jung’s observation that people who deny the shadow side of their personality indeed may be the most toxic of us all when they blindly act it out.

That said, the concept of Eternal Conscious Torment for any finite being is too much. People may be exposed to images of hell when they are children before they are able to see through them critically.

Are Erhman’s history of how images of heaven and hell developed helpful in dispelling toxic fear associated with such images? Here’s a sample of what he says about Jesus as depicted in the canonical gospels to consider:

51

Ecmandu repeatly said he would not post on this thread. Now he has betrayed his own words. Is anyone surprised? I’m not. It takes integrity to keep your word.

52

Jesus spoke of repentance for one’s sins… or be judged by god the almighty father who art in heaven.

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Christianity (New Testament)

In the King James Version of the Bible, the term appears 13 times in 11 different verses as Valley of Hinnom , Valley of the son of Hinnom or Valley of the children of Hinnom.

In the synoptic Gospels the various authors describe Jesus, who was Jewish, as using the word Gehenna to describe the opposite to life in the Kingdom (Mark 9:43–48). The term is used 11 times in these writings.[47] In certain usage, the Christian Bible refers to it as a place where both soul (Greek: ψυχή, psyche) and body could be destroyed (Matthew 10:28) in “unquenchable fire” (Mark 9:43).[48]

Christian usage of Gehenna often serves to admonish adherents of the religion to live pious lives. Examples of Gehenna in the Christian New Testament include:

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Translations in Christian Bibles

The New Testament also refers to Hades as a place distinct from Gehenna.[citation needed] Unlike Gehenna, Hades typically conveys neither fire nor punishment but forgetfulness. The Book of Revelation describes Hades being cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14). The King James Version is the only English translation in modern use to translate Sheol, Hades, Tartarus (Greek ταρταρώσας; lemma: ταρταρόω tartaroō), and Gehenna as Hell. In the New Testament, the New International Version, New Living Translation, New American Standard Bible (among others) all reserve the term “hell” for the translation of Gehenna or Tartarus (see above), transliterating Hades as a term directly from the equivalent Greek term.

Treatment of Gehenna in Christianity is significantly affected by whether the distinction in Hebrew and Greek between Gehenna and Hades was maintained:

53

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History of purgatory

“Birth of purgatory”

Medievalist Jacques Le Goff defines the “birth of purgatory”, i.e. the conception of purgatory as a physical place, rather than merely as a state, as occurring between 1170 and 1200.[38] Le Goff acknowledged that the notion of purification after death, without the medieval notion of a physical place, existed in antiquity, arguing specifically that Clement of Alexandria, and his pupil Origen of Alexandria, derived their view from a combination of biblical teachings, though he considered vague concepts of purifying and punishing fire to predate Christianity.[39] Le Goff also considered Peter the Lombard (d. 1160), in expounding on the teachings of St. Augustine and Gregory the Great, to have contributed significantly to the birth of purgatory in the sense of a physical place.

While the idea of purgatory as a process of cleansing thus dated back to early Christianity, the 12th century was the heyday of medieval otherworld-journey narratives such as the Irish Visio Tnugdali, and of pilgrims’ tales about St. Patrick’s Purgatory, a cavelike entrance to purgatory on a remote island in Ireland.[40] The legend of St Patrick’s Purgatory (Tractatus de Purgatorio Sancti Patricii) written in that century by Hugh of Saltry, also known as Henry of Sawtry, was “part of a huge, repetitive contemporary genre of literature of which the most familiar today is Dante’s”;[41] another is the Visio Tnugdali. Other legends localized the entrance to Purgatory in places such as a cave on the volcanic Mount Etna in Sicily.[42] Thus the idea of purgatory as a physical place became widespread on a popular level, and was defended also by some theologians.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_purgatory

54

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purgatory

(in Catholic doctrine) a place or state of suffering inhabited by the souls of sinners who are expiating their sins before going to heaven. Recorded from Middle English, the word ultimately comes (via Anglo-Norman French or medieval Latin) from late Latin purgatorius ‘purifying’.

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…a more benevolent take, on the concept of the underworld?

55

I agree. Thanks for the good references.
As for Gehenna, Ehrman notes that there is neither Biblical nor archeological evidence that Gehenna was a dump. The idea “can be traced to a commentary on the book of Psalms written by Rabbi David Kimhi in the early thirteenth century CE.”

56

This is the reason why Matthew Fox wrote his book “Original Blessing”. In Genesis God sees His creations as Good. How could Adam and Eve be considered created good, but are causes of the world’s evil?

57

So as late as that? so not a pivotal part of the formation of Christianity, Judaism, and the other Abrahamic religions… and what about in the remainder of the other Continents’ religions, I wonder.

That is also my view on the matter… growing populations required more control, and yes… that meant more money for the Papal coffers.

58

The Dalai Lama teaches pacifism. But if someone rapes someone right in front of him… is it the correct thing to do to just walk away?

Iambiguous abused this thread like a coward.

Maybe a rapist in front of the Dalai Lama thought the same thing.

That’s the position I was placed in.

I’ll repeat: I have no content in this thread relevant to the topic. I’m merely pointing out that iambiguous should not bring or slander my name in a thread I promised to stay out of.

It does not make the Dalai Lama strong to casually watch a rape occur.

But you’re saying I’m weak.

Again. I can say a million things about this thread. I’ve added NO CONTENT to the topic.

59

I don’t think it’s an attempt to control the population.

My point was that frustration with injustice still exists in present day USA. Therefore, the solution of ‘justice after death’ still exists.

60

That’s it.

You’re not adding content. If you were, then maybe people would cut you some slack and let you participate. Instead, you drag the tread down with your nonsense.

Dan ought to ban you for a few days.