Hi, everybody.

[pxc]

I’m not sure how many of you know or remember me, or even give a damn about all that, but I’m Patrick C. I’ve been a member for a fairly long time, made a few posts, maybe a couple a day for a year or so.

The reason for my return, for now, starts with the advent of a “free thinkers, atheists, and agnostics” club at my high school. I’m an agnostic. I’ve been raised so as to induce me to grow up to be a Christian. My parents, up until about two hours ago, didn’t know this. I lost my faith at a church-camp a few years ago. The club, for me, was an amazing experience. It was, to me, refreshing, liberating, and… just wonderful to be in an environment where I felt free and open to talk about my beliefs, and to learn from others.

My mom, who apparently runs the spy-network of mothers at my school, and knows everything (I’m not fucking kidding, she knows about stuff that goes down at school before I do, most of the time. She asked if I went to the chorus rehearsal today, and I told her “no.” She instantly knew that I had gone to the “atheist club” as she called it, today, but she asked anyway.

Her initial reaction was one of anger, telling me that I needed to stop being “wishy-washy” about my faith. At that point, I revealed to her that I lost my faith two summers ago, at WorldView Academy (a summer camp). She then said she didn’t want to talk to me, so I left. After a while, she talked to me about it, and she mostly seemed worried about my eternal soul than anything else. She asked that I not go to the club unless she says so, and I just kind of stared at her. Anyway, here I am again, looking for more.

Thanks for taking the time to read this abbreviated version of my adventures with (a) god.

–Patrick C.

[Mr_Predictable]

How old are you pxc?

[SilentSoliloquy]

pxc, my mum is the same way. I figure I won’t break the news untill I come to a situation where I absolutely must or else not untill I’m out of her hair in a few more years. Why risk getting my head chopped off and constantly being reminded of what a sinner I am?

[Obw]

If she is open to it, maybe get her to sit down and watch ‘Brief History of Disbelief’ with Jonathan Miller. I can host the video for you to download, if you want. Very simple, calm and sensible sofa and fireside conversations between Miller and other philosophers about the nature of atheist and disbelief, with more in the ‘Atheism Tapes’ (conversations with Dennett, McGinn, Dawkins, Weinberg, Turner and even Arthur Miller!) It might help her to realise you aren’t all that weird or unusual and that you’ve thought through your beliefs. It might help her realise how mature you have become.

Mind you I’m giving you advice when I have no idea what your mum is like, so take it as such!

[Mr_Predictable]

You might also treat her as you wish that she treated you.

[pxc]

Thanks. I’m 15 and a sophomore in high school. My mom isn’t too… freaked out about it, she just wants to make sure that I explore and visit more than just atheistic/agnostic groups.

[creation_imperfect]

The only problem I would have with an athiest/agnostic group is that it doesn’t seem to present both sides of the story. It’s people who don’t know what they think about God surrounding themselves with people who don’t believe in God. What do you think is going to happen in this environment?

I’m curious pxc, what made you lose your faith?

[pxc]

About the club:

It doesn’t disallow members of any religion from coming. The only rule for discussion is that you’re not allowed to insult someone for their beliefs.

I lost my faith because somewhere along the way, it just stopped making sense. I just couldn’t believe everything my churchmates and pastors and parents were feeding me, and after prayer and reading of scripture, I came to the conclusion that Christianity is not the beginning or end of anything. I’m still trying to find out what is. What pushed me over the edge, so to speak, was that every time I reached a conclusion that made some fragment of sense about Christianity, some religious figure (pastor, friend, etc.) would come along and tell me, “No, no!” and offer no explanation but “because” or, “how can we understand God?” type of thing.

@Obw: I would appreciate it if you would post a link to either or both of those videos.

[yopele]

As regarding C. Imperfect’s comment: How many churches present all sides of the argument? Very few, I would imagine. I doubt many allow Satanists, Jews, Muslims, Wiccans, etc. equal time at the pulpit to provide the congregation with various alternatives.

I would advise that you just don’t get too caught up in the atheist’s propaganda - if any is presented at your meetings. Keep your mind open, and remember the morals your parents instilled in you - they may still be very valuable. They certainly will when you have to confront them with your present views. If you can convince them by honestly telling them that you intend to be a “good” person, their concern for you soul may diminish.

[pxc]

I have been an agnostic long enough that although I am not sure about the existence of God, I have constructed, through logic and emotion, my own meaning to life and my own morals.

[Mr_Predictable]

I would hazard that many atheists are vastly more ethical than religious people, if you define ethics as ideas focused on treating others fairly with the goal of making life better.

The problem with atheists is that they come in different varieties. Let me use a happy Christian as an example. Such a person admires Jesus and tries their best to live within the system. They aren’t always fighting about Jews or shaking their fist at Hindus. That’s because they don’t have to prove to themselves that Christianity is The Way. The Christian that hates the Hindu most likely thinks much more about Hindus than the Christians.

Got that?

What I’m warning against are the atheists that “hate god” or are “mad at god,” because they are still halfway in the god camp. They aren’t focused on trying to establish a terrestrial/existential principle of living or trying to supply answers for the question, what next. In fact, many such people are going through a phase and will return to religion.

So, look for people that approach the god situation like the Santa Claus situation, in that they don’t believe anymore and aren’t mad about it.

Hang around with thought provoking people.

[Dan1 (Dan~)]

@pxc

I’m not sure how many of you know or remember me, or even give a damn about all that, but I’m Patrick C. I’ve been a member for a fairly long time, made a few posts, maybe a couple a day for a year or so.

The reason for my return, for now, starts with the advent of a “free thinkers, atheists, and agnostics” club at my high school. I’m an agnostic. I’ve been raised so as to induce me to grow up to be a Christian. My parents, up until about two hours ago, didn’t know this. I lost my faith at a church-camp a few years ago. The club, for me, was an amazing experience. It was, to me, refreshing, liberating, and… just wonderful to be in an environment where I felt free and open to talk about my beliefs, and to learn from others.

My mom, who apparently runs the spy-network of mothers at my school, and knows everything (I’m not fucking kidding, she knows about stuff that goes down at school before I do, most of the time. She asked if I went to the chorus rehearsal today, and I told her “no.” She instantly knew that I had gone to the “atheist club” as she called it, today, but she asked anyway.

Her initial reaction was one of anger, telling me that I needed to stop being “wishy-washy” about my faith. At that point, I revealed to her that I lost my faith two summers ago, at WorldView Academy (a summer camp). She then said she didn’t want to talk to me, so I left. After a while, she talked to me about it, and she mostly seemed worried about my eternal soul than anything else. She asked that I not go to the club unless she says so, and I just kind of stared at her. Anyway, here I am again, looking for more.

Thanks for taking the time to read this abbreviated version of my adventures with (a) god.

–Patrick C.

I say, that club sounds grand. I hope that it grows and stays around for thousands of years, and out-lasts the Jewish.

@yopele

I doubt many allow Satanists, Jews, Muslims, Wiccans, etc. equal time at the pulpit to provide the congregation with various alternatives.

PXC, It’s sick that she thinks you are her property, and “free will” itself is supposedly the reason for why evil exists on the earth, according to Christendom; but I suggest that you hide everything which you are not forced to show, and do what you enjoy the most. Lie when you can get away with it, as you are smart and will be able to tell when you will be able to get away with such things. Many people in society and many ideas in morality are all gunning to control your life. But once you stop caring about what people think of you and what people think is right, you will be able to see your own True_Will more clearly. I doubt that any of them wish for you to spend the utmost of your hours on self-empowerment, and instead, they want you to dance the mundane dance of externally pleasing behavior. They all will try to spoil your life by wanting you to do things for them which they don’t even need. That’s right, all they want is non-vital, mudane service or obediance or listening or WHAT EVER. HssSS!
jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/ … ocus1.html
[size=75]Damn the churches deeper into hell.[/size]

[creation_imperfect]

@pxc

About the club:

It doesn’t disallow members of any religion from coming. The only rule for discussion is that you’re not allowed to insult someone for their beliefs.

Well that’s good to hear. I wasn’t sure, but that aspect wasn’t the main part of your story anyway.

I lost my faith because somewhere along the way, it just stopped making sense. I just couldn’t believe everything my churchmates and pastors and parents were feeding me, and after prayer and reading of scripture, I came to the conclusion that Christianity is not the beginning or end of anything. I’m still trying to find out what is. What pushed me over the edge, so to speak, was that every time I reached a conclusion that made some fragment of sense about Christianity, some religious figure (pastor, friend, etc.) would come along and tell me, “No, no!” and offer no explanation but “because” or, “how can we understand God?” type of thing.

It’s sad that that is the way a lot of churches deal with it, including mine sometimes. I’m not sure why they do, but it has a negative effect of either making it seem like an insult to the questioner’s intelligence or making it seem like we are not supposed to understand those things. I personally believe otherwise, but I ran up against the same wall and called myself agnostic for a year or so (though I still went to church just for appearance’s sake where my parents were concerned. I really didn’t want their input.) During that time I tried to do what I could to break down that wall between me and at least one person in the church who could answer a lot of questions I had, because I truly believe that if you do not understand fully what you believe, and if you don’t try to understand what you believe, you are not a Christian. I returned to Christianity after this period of philosophical thought about God and Christians.

@yopele

As regarding C. Imperfect’s comment: How many churches present all sides of the argument? Very few, I would imagine. I doubt many allow Satanists, Jews, Muslims, Wiccans, etc. equal time at the pulpit to provide the congregation with various alternatives.

While there is a time and a place for debates and arguments, the church or church service is not it. These are places for people who believe in such things to offer praise and worship towards God (or whatever.) I love to debate religion, but by no means would I ever encroach on another church’s hospitality by entering their service and starting a discussion. That’s simply the wrong place for it. Now, on the flip side of the coin, many church leaders outside of services still do not want to discuss it, but (while I have no evidence to support this) I believe it’s because they were never taught to defend their beliefs or how to carefully and respectfully pick apart someone else’s, so they avoid the whole matter altogether. If you look, however, you will find church leaders who are quite willing, even able, to discuss such things with you.

[yopele]

@pxc

I have been an agnostic long enough that although I am not sure about the existence of God, I have constructed, through logic and emotion, my own meaning to life and my own morals.

Of course you have. I was trying to give friendly advice. If you didn’t want it, you could have told us beforehand - it would have saved me from me wasting a few minutes of my life.

Oh well! I live and learn.

[yopele]

@creation imperfect

While there is a time and a place for debates and arguments…

And perhaps pxc’s group is not the proper forum to debate all questions - just those agnostics and atheists have regarding existence without a deity. If they want to know how existence should be experienced with a deity, they can select the appropriate church, synagogue, mosque, etc. and have those questions answered.

[pxc]

@Yopele:
I’m sorry if I came off as… unreceptive or dismissive when I said that. I just meant to say that I acknowledge the importance of morals and valuing other people, as you suggested.

[pxc]

@Dan~

@pxc

I’m not sure how many of you know or remember me, or even give a damn about all that, but I’m Patrick C. I’ve been a member for a fairly long time, made a few posts, maybe a couple a day for a year or so.

The reason for my return, for now, starts with the advent of a “free thinkers, atheists, and agnostics” club at my high school. I’m an agnostic. I’ve been raised so as to induce me to grow up to be a Christian. My parents, up until about two hours ago, didn’t know this. I lost my faith at a church-camp a few years ago. The club, for me, was an amazing experience. It was, to me, refreshing, liberating, and… just wonderful to be in an environment where I felt free and open to talk about my beliefs, and to learn from others.

My mom, who apparently runs the spy-network of mothers at my school, and knows everything (I’m not fucking kidding, she knows about stuff that goes down at school before I do, most of the time. She asked if I went to the chorus rehearsal today, and I told her “no.” She instantly knew that I had gone to the “atheist club” as she called it, today, but she asked anyway.

Her initial reaction was one of anger, telling me that I needed to stop being “wishy-washy” about my faith. At that point, I revealed to her that I lost my faith two summers ago, at WorldView Academy (a summer camp). She then said she didn’t want to talk to me, so I left. After a while, she talked to me about it, and she mostly seemed worried about my eternal soul than anything else. She asked that I not go to the club unless she says so, and I just kind of stared at her. Anyway, here I am again, looking for more.

Thanks for taking the time to read this abbreviated version of my adventures with (a) god.

–Patrick C.

I say, that club sounds grand. I hope that it grows and stays around for thousands of years, and out-lasts the Jewish.

@yopele

I doubt many allow Satanists, Jews, Muslims, Wiccans, etc. equal time at the pulpit to provide the congregation with various alternatives.

PXC, It’s sick that she thinks you are her property, and “free will” itself is supposedly the reason for why evil exists on the earth, according to Christendom; but I suggest that you hide everything which you are not forced to show, and do what you enjoy the most. Lie when you can get away with it, as you are smart and will be able to tell when you will be able to get away with such things. Many people in society and many ideas in morality are all gunning to control your life. But once you stop caring about what people think of you and what people think is right, you will be able to see your own True_Will more clearly. I doubt that any of them wish for you to spend the utmost of your hours on self-empowerment, and instead, they want you to dance the mundane dance of externally pleasing behavior. They all will try to spoil your life by wanting you to do things for them which they don’t even need. That’s right, all they want is non-vital, mudane service or obediance or listening or WHAT EVER. HssSS!
jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/ … ocus1.html
[size=75]Damn the churches deeper into hell.[/size]

No offense, man, but I harbor no resentment against religious people. I did, for a while, but I’ve learned since then not to make the same generalizations you seem to detest so much. If I had to name two moral ideas that I value most, they would be honesty and community, so I don’t think I could guiltlessly follow your plan.

PS: You are being more than a little ridiculous. Chill, it’s my thread.

[yopele]

@pxc

@Yopele:
I’m sorry if I came off as… unreceptive or dismissive when I said that. I just meant to say that I acknowledge the importance of morals and valuing other people, as you suggested.

No problem; I misread you - my bad.

My point was that if your “new” moral system differs from your old one, you should still keep the old one in the back of your mind. There’s no point in learning something again that our parents taught us years ago. We keep learning, and it’s a waste when we have to relearn something we already knew.

[Dan1 (Dan~)]

@pxc

No offense, man, but I harbor no resentment against religious people. I did, for a while, but I’ve learned since then not to make the same generalizations you seem to detest so much. If I had to name two moral ideas that I value most, they would be honesty and community, so I don’t think I could guiltlessly follow your plan.

PS: You are being more than a little ridiculous. Chill, it’s my thread.

What I earlier have said in red was a joke.

Honesty and community are very important things.

[pxc]

@Dan~

@pxc

No offense, man, but I harbor no resentment against religious people. I did, for a while, but I’ve learned since then not to make the same generalizations you seem to detest so much. If I had to name two moral ideas that I value most, they would be honesty and community, so I don’t think I could guiltlessly follow your plan.

PS: You are being more than a little ridiculous. Chill, it’s my thread.

What I earlier have said in red was a joke.

Honesty and community are very important things.

I had thought so, but I wasn’t sure. Sorry, my sarcasm detection is pretty weak online.