Homosexuality as a religious sex.

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
1

The title was a typo. It was supposed to say, “Homosexuality as a religious sect,” but I rather like it the way it is.

I’m having problems wrapping my mind around gayness. That sounds as though I have a problem with the practice, I have a problem with the people, or I have a problem with people who have a problem with gays.

To be honest, I’m rather neutral in terms of the act. It doesn’t bother me, and it doesn’t move me. However, it does intrigue me. I have a girlfriend who is obsessed with gay boys. She even stated she wants to have a gay son one day. I have met gay men, though, and they dont want to talk about their homosexuality. It’s as though if I bring up the topic, that this is all I see them as. One even told me after I asked jokingly, “Well, are you voting for Bush?” this, and I quote: “Heh, gee, I almost forgot I was gay for a second.”

What???

You ARE gay. Why would you want to FORGET that?

But… then I started thinking. This is similar to how people treat their religion. Often times it’s viewed like a racial slur, but it’s not. It’s more as though one is making a religious slur. If I had gone up to a Jew and stated, “Well, are you voting for La Rouche?” in a joking manner, they would treat it the same. The mental interpretation is the same.

People are upset when they are reminded of their religion… moreso than their race. If you make a comment to a black person about their race, they find more black people and beat the shit out of you…in a twisted way this brings them together. If you call Mexians lazy, you’re liable to get cut by fourty bean eaters waving tortilla chips and farting up a storm. But…that’s because they’re strong in the face of adversity. If you tell Asians they have a small penis, they go cry in a corner and no longer associate with you, but talk a great deal of shit behind your back. If you make a religious joke, though, people take it with hurt… but they don’t always take it to heart. It’s almost like, “Gee, I almost forgot I was Catholic.”

Why is this? I can only see two possible answers for this. One, it’s more acceptable in our society to pick fun at gays or two, it’s not viewed the same by the gay community itself. I lean towards the latter, but it’s probably a little of both or another option I have yet to consider. Gays DO seem to view it as a choice, even if their feelings are not chosen. I mean, even the term “Gay Community” reminds me of the “Mormon Community” or the “Catholic Community” more than it does the “Black Community”. Why? Well, what do the Catholic Community, Mormon Community, and Gay Community have in common? Actions. They all require a certain level of participation or ritual or act in order to be considered a member. You’re an automatic member of the Black Community at birth, though. No amount of action will change that.

Why am I posting this? Mostly because it disturbs me how gays treat themselves. There’s an overabundant level of shame in their community. This is very dangerous. This means they take themselves too seriously. This means they may not be able to keep up their sense of humor in adversity. This means that gays are not really a strong group.

What’s your give?

2

I think a beginner’s course in Social Studies would be in order for you. You seem to be focusing on the stereotype (which is often times exaggerated) and not the individuals within a select group. Your limited observations lead you to false conclusions. “This means… this means”, means you don’t really know.

3

use of stereotypes is alarming. that’s right. but i think that what rafa is trying to say is that the discomfort homosexuals experience by being pegged as gay is similar to that felt by religious people. both, it seems, wish to be considered something else.

rafa seems to be missing the point that he has already answered his own question in many respects. it is not possible for one to ‘hide’ one’s race to the world. this is made known from the start, and people of this race are immediately put in a position where they must deal with this.

homosexuals, however, are not in this position. they can appear to be straight, or heterosexual, unless they choose to reveal otherwise. i think that T is right in saying that this is basic sociology/anthropology/pol sci in that of course when ppl are percieved to be of a different group, they feel defensive.

the conclusion that this this feeling makes homosexuality a choice is ad homiem and irrelevant. the nasty stereotypes used in the post, although i can see that you’re trying to be funny and ultimatly wish to highly compliament them, are offensive. it’s just an example to me how a coherent arguement is clouded by prejudice. which is unfortunate.

4

I believe it’s clouded more by laziness. If people cannot be bothered to read what is written… sigh. I thought it was obvious that I wasn’t speaking for myself, geesh.

I didn’t ask a question, so how could I (implied: unwittingly) answer myself? I posed a proposition, which you obviously support. Thank you, Trix.

And drop the PC bullshit, Trix. Oversensitivity and overidentification are two massive tumors on our society. It’s an uneeded emotional bias… but you wouldn’t know anything about that, wouldya ya friggin Canuck.

I think a beginner’s course in reading would be in order for you.

5

If you are referring to my comprehension of your initial post, why not just explain what you feel I am not understanding about it? It actually seems to be a pretty easy read. I feel you are reading things into the homosexual community that are not common to the group as a whole.

6

rafa:

what you are missing is that simply because a person reacts a certain way to being placed in a group does not necessarily reflect the individual’s acceptance of the group. your post argued that because guys you speak to are startled when you say they are homosexual, that all homosexuals, therefore, are gay by choice and might not really want to be gay. this is absolutly ridiculous. make no mistake, and T pointed this out to you.

homosexuals can be startled, or reluctant to embrace the label based on the reactions the recieve when they are members of that group. they could anticipate having problems. or, if the conversation is about something they see as unrelated to their sexual orientation, they might be reluctant to bring that into the topic. there are a plethra of reasons for choosing to act to an us-them devaluation, none of which necessarily lead to homosexuality being a choice.

7

Oh… you’re right. I’m sorry.

Please ignore the posts I make for the next few days as my birthday is coming up so I’m in mourning (read: brief moments of lucidity amongst much drunkeness).

I didn’t see it from that perspective. I assumed you were speaking ONLY of the racial jokes I put in there to furthur illustrate my point. I didn’t really consider that some gays/lesbians celebrate their sexual orientation openly and DO have a sense of humor about it. Perhaps it has something to do with my age group… (I’m at the “coming out” age, ya know? Perhaps there is hieghtened sensitivity about now.)

I agree, however the conversations in question already had their sexual orientation brought into play. Ya had to be there, I guess. Either way, yes, you are right…

However…

This is not, was not, and never has been my assertion. It’s actually the complete opposite of what I believe. I was stating that it was a SHAME that gays treat themselves in a gay by choice manner. See the last paragraph. They treat themselves like a religion and not a race. In other words, they “appear” to lack solidarity. Never once did I say, “all homosexuals, therefore, are gay by choice…” I really have no clue where you pulled that from.

My point is still kinda made… when they DO take offense, that’s the manner in which the offense is taken (in general, as a group direction). And that worries me, because I would hope they’d be a little more unified, but oh well.

Again, sorry guys. There are other ways to look at things. I see that I commited an either/or fallacy… even if you haven’t pointed it out quite yet and read other things into my post (which are untrue and clear misinterpretations).

8

happy birthday!

i can kinda tell where you were trying to go, but i think that the presentation was slurred. and the misrepresentations were easily plucked out. suppose both just reasons for why drinking and typing don’t mix.

9

Lets break this down like I should have done in the first place - by the way happy birthday Raf.

Do not see in this first part of the post anything based on facts.

This second part of your initial post should take the form a supporting premise, but it really is more stereotyping which one would hope would be followed with a conclusion based on facts.

I’m glad you said you recognize your fallacy here in that you are giving us but two examples of a reason “why” - neither of which can be true in the context you desire us believe. Anyway, the act has little to do with the lifestyle. Many people experiment and could never be persuaded to become gay - either you are or you are not, just like the color of your skin.

I’m finding it hard to care any longer. :wink:

If there is any shame in this particular group it is because society has made them feel their lifestyle demands shame which it does not - society is the group overflowing with shame.

10

Not everything is an argument, T.

Some things are meant only as discourse.

I’m sorry, is anecdotal evidence not empirical enough for your discussions? My, you must be quite a thrill at parties if all you speak about are percents and margins of error.

You really should chill, man. Sit back, cool down, get wasted away in Margaritaville.

searches for his lost shaker of salt

T, some people claim they have a woman to blame. I don’t. It’s my own damn fault.

One day you’re going to post something stupid… oh yes, you will.

11

I do not need to escape or entertain myself “getting wasted” with artificial stimuli like alcohol or drugs (I understand it can be a Pisces issue :confused: ) but I do enjoy good import beer from time to time.

12

Well I guess you’re a better man than I, Antisthenes.

:wink:

raises his glass towards your fortitude of character

13

transexuality is one of the funniest thing’s god placed on earth. Pardon the god part. yea, first part a bit christian, last part embarassed, or covering the tracks, or writing it cause it sounded better.

i used to called someone T, i hated them, not you off course its just reminding me of that () “society is the group overflowing with shame” is it? no, its just the organs are in the wrong place. Logic–Sociality…

:laughing: its like: talk to hand, cause the face dont understand words. sorry trix, just heard that somewhere and thought it was funny.

14

You can call me Tony if you’d prefer :smiley:

15

i know plenty of gay men and none of them fit your definitions
they aren’t in the closet or hidding their true identities in any way
but i do live in a mostly gay community so i may have never experienced what you are explaining
as far as the consequences of attacking blacks mexicans and asians is concerned
i would assume you speak from experience
since you know the inevitable outcome
oh and by the way
i have seen a group of queers beat the shit out of a guy for calling them faggots
i dont think its just gays that treat themselves that way
anyone has the right to feel shame

16

Hmm, ok, thank you. You’re right. Like I said, it was stupid. I appologize. And, actually, I was beaten by black kids in elementary and middle school. The only reason was I’m white. I never use the N word, I am not racist, I satire it now in my writings and in conversation, but I don’t really “believe” what I say. Ya know?

e.g. Rap = black people’s music. When rap plays, I say, “I hear black people’s music”. My roomate is the whitest Mic ya’d ever see (I can say Mic, I’m one too), so I find it funny when he pretends he has black rhythm… hence, “I hear black people’s music.”

All things in context. All things in context.

By the way, if you want to debate the “inevitable response”, shout “White power” during something like the Million Man march or a Spike Lee film and see what happens. Go ahead. :stuck_out_tongue:

17

i will never scream white power
i will never scream black brown green or blue power
skin is just skin
i have only been beaten by whites
but i will not condemn them for their choices
school years dont last very long
i would hope everyone can grow past the adolescence
whether they be the beater or the beaten
life is hard from both sides
if you are gay you have the right to be treated equally
if you are straight you have the same rights as a human being
yes rap is black peoples music
so is funk
so is jazz so is blues
cant i enjoy it as music rather than black peoples music

hey
love and respect
kasey
p.s.
spike lee has not put out a good film in years
(my opinion)

18

i dont think you are racist
yes, i know what you mean