How to Live.

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
1

My proposition

Live for desire.

Explanation

What are we?

We are biological robots.

How did we come to be?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF0UECN4ndA[/youtube]

What is our purpose?

We came into existence without our choice or intent, so the purpose of our existence resides outside of us.

What exists beyond us?

The planet. Beyond? The Solar System. Beyond? The Galaxy. Beyond? The Universe. Beyond? Nothing. The Universe contains all existence.

What does the Universe will for us?

Not much. Our existence doesn’t affect the Universe, for before life existed, the Universe was doing just fine with inanimate matter/energy.

If the Universe lacks will for us, how could there be purpose?

Relative to the Universe, there can’t be purpose.

If our existence is without purpose, why do we want to exist?

We enjoy the process of existence. We enjoy what it is to be alive and attaining our desires.

What do we desire?

We desire to stop experiences of discomfort, and attain experiences of pleasure.

Where did our desires come from?

Desires evolved due to natural selection.

Organisms that had drive to extinguish threats to their existence, and seek what extended the existence of their species, survived better than organisms that lacked these.

How do our desires relate to the Universe?

The Universe has no access to our desires, so they don’t. Our desires exist within us, and relate to us only.

If our desires only relate to us, and affect nothing but us, ought we give them credit?

We have no obligation to give our desire credit, or to act on them. It is our choice whether we want to.

What are we without desire?

Matter that is aware of itself.

What would happen if we ignored our desires?

We would die.

Should we die?

Life and Death is neutral, relative to the Universe. Your death is neutral, your life is neutral. You’re not obligated to do either.

Where does that leave us?

In a position of choice. You are free to make your own choice. If you prefer to live, seek that. If you prefer to die, seek that. It’s irrelevant.

What influences our choice?

Our desires, which are bias towards survival.

If the only thing we measure questions with is bias, was there choice?

Not really. The answer was always clear.

If nothing is expected of us, what should we do in life?

Attain your desires to the maximum potential.

How do we achieve maximum results?

Cooperate with anything that will aide the process.

Conclusion

The only thing in existence (to our knowledge) that has preference is Life. Life’s preference is to continue existing in the most efficient manner.

We’ve been given an opportunity to experience Life and we will never know a moment of the alternative.

It’s just a ride. Embrace it without fear. Embrace it for Love of the journey.

UPDATE:

[u]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q77-ggkzWRI[/u]
[u]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIBoEZOVLIE[/u]

I relate to this guy. :smiley:

2

Hi Joe. Nice to see A fresh face around.

I don’t think this list is extensive enough. We also desire progress, power, other people’s happiness (or sometimes unhappiness), to look after our children etc.

Some people would try to reduce these desires down to desires for pleasure or for pain avoidance, but I don’t think this is realistic. Some of these desires can override the pain/pleasure desires, such as when someone dies whilst on hunger strike to fight for a cause, or when a mother sacrifices herself for a child, or a soldier withstands an incredible amount of torture to resist giving vital information to an enemy, and dies. These seem like clear cut examples that show we have more desires, and stronger desires, than the the desires for simple pursuit of pleasure and avoidance of pain.

If I desire to kick white people in the back of the head, just because they are white, is that a desire that I should attain to my full potential?

Because sadly, this is a desire that some people (actually many people, if you substitute ‘white’ for other races) actually have.

3

Joe, you sound like a Value-ontologist. You should get together with Fixed Cross.

4

Desires don’t exist in a vacuum – they exist in the context of other desires. They exist relative to other desires. Yes, Bob the Nazi may wanna kick that nagger over there in the head, but he wants MORE to not be in jail, among other things.

He said “Attain your desires to the maximum potential.” That doesn’t mean “follow each of your desires indiscriminately,” so your response is just a strawman, and a really transparent one at that.

5

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn’t.

guardian.co.uk/world/video/2 … five-video

No, but where malicious desires are dominant, JS’ maxim does imply that the right thing to do is follow them and achieve them (that we should attain them).

6

If by “subjective value” you connote dasein, I agree.

As for the rest of it, it can mean anything to anyone.

That’s why I tend to focus instead on this: What happens when the love of life we embrace collides with love of life someone else embraces?

What can we know for sure here and what can only be a point of view? How to live then.

7

No, Joe. Take the first sentence; It’s like saying “purpoe is relative to it’s purpose”—it’s not intelligible. You have the ability to stop this show at any moment, for yourself, therefore, the purpose of your existence resides inside you. (You don’t refrain from walking out of a movie because you thought there wasw no point to watching the movie).

This question is a category error—in any case, it does not make sense, unless you think religiously of the universe as an agent.

How do you get from everything above, to thinking value is a subjective bias? I would have thought you’d have arrived at the conclusion that (1) You are a biological organism, and (2) Therefore, what’s good for you isn’t a matter of what you desire, but your biology, since you can have mistaken desires (say, that lead to your extinction). Also, the world “delusional” is way out of place. You can’t be deluded about value if value is just your subjective bias. Nor can you be deluded about purposes/goal if it’s up to you to make them.

8

Is this philosophy? I think there are far too many certainties here.

9

yes, sure. i don’t see that as an obviously false approach. perhaps it’s a cynical approach, perhaps its not easy to stomach for some who believe in a more objective morality, but I’ve yet to see a reasonable case made against it. care to make one?

10

I agree with pretty much everything the op said, unfortunately.

11

Oxymoron?

Conjecture.

Conjecture.

And what is the Universe? What is it’s state?

How do you know the universe lacks will? ?Are we not part of the universe? We have a will. so at least part of the universe has will at least…

If purpose is subjective how can existance be without purpose? Subjective isn’t the same as nonexistent.

Not all the time no, this is the mindset of a Hedonist, not a definitive description on the state of human desire.

Why does natural selection happen at all? Is this the only thing that shapes our desires?

Are we not part of the Universe?

If all desires are based on natural selection how can they relate only to us?

Can something be self aware and have no Desires?

When it comes to Eating,Drinking and Breathing, Yes.

An interesting question, is it even valid? We do die, what does “should” have to do with it? And I do mean that as a legitimate question.
Also who decided live and death are Nuetral to the Universe.

Is it?

Not nessesarily.

What? How is the Bias Delusional?

Were always being judged by each other, things are always expected of us, either positive, negative or neutral.

But what of the aide isn’t genuine? Or will be seen with the right foresight as not an aide at all.

If we create our values then what makes it delusional? Us? then how would we be aware it’s delusional? and compared to what?

12

I believe it’s rational to seek our desires. If we didn’t, we’d die.

All our desires/values are aligned with what has helped us survive. This means, we can seek consciously the best way to survive, and go at it, since all our values and desires will fall into place.

When one says the our ultimate direction is to attain our desires (exist efficiently), this is a foundation we can build upon. If we advocate people going around attacking people based on insignificant differences, are we prone to feel safe? What of our desires to seek the well being of others? What of our desire to extinguish stress and anxiety? These help us survive.

I believe it is irrational to undermine the fundamental drive. Desires that don’t directly aide survival, don’t help you, don’t help others. These desires are just random offshoots that people take when they lose sight of what they really want. In the instance of the guy attacking others, he’d probably want love and acceptance. Instead, he mauls people. Does this seem rational to you? Or necessary?

We can create an environment where our desires that sustain us are met, and any desire that is harmful
to this goal can be outgrown, or expressed in a way that doesn’t harm the goal.

13

I was tired when I wrote the OP. I edited it.

We can’t rule out the Universe has will. I don’t believe it does. You should have read the answer to see the relevance of the question.

I think it’s delusional to ignore the objective meaningless. That’s just a personal description though, it doesn’t change what I was saying. I removed this also from the OP for the sake of clarity.

We live for the attainment of desires, not for our biology. If we didn’t care about anything, why would we care of our body? It’s just matter.

14

The Universe is a system that contains all existence. It’s state is the current composition of all that exists. Do we affect the direction of the Universe? No. The Universe was fine before Life came along.

Refer to the video on how we evolved.

Does this strike you as there was intent for our existence? Not to me.

The Universe isn’t comprised of just Life. It is comprised of all that exists. We have a will, does that mean the Earth has a will? We comprise up part of the Earth. I say no, the Earth does not have a will.

When I talk about existence, I refer back to the cause of our existence. We have no objective purpose, because the system that we comprise (The Universe) has no role for us to play.

Subjective purpose is different, and I believe it is our desires that give us purpose.

We are. One of our desires, is to cooperate with other people. We are social creatures. It isn’t wrong to want this, for wrong/right are value judgements that can only be made if you admit and accept your bias. For nothing is objectively right/wrong.

Natural selection happens because Life isn’t easy. An organism must be well adapted in order to overcome all the obstacles of reality. If you were capable of surviving, you did. The trigger for natural selection is that everything died, some faster than others. We are what hasn’t died yet.

Natural Selection is the only thing that has shaped our desires for it was the only criterion that was applied. Nothing else was considered when it came to what survived, and what didn’t.

We are, but again, we are not all that comprises the Universe. Therefore, what we feel, isn’t what the Universe feels. Just as our thoughts aren’t shared with other people. They are also part of the Universe.

Because our desires are what helped us survive. When we feel hungry, it’s our desire. Not the desire of another person or being. They relate to us, they are ours.

It’s possible, but that something would have no direction or will to do anything. So it would die.

We have evidence that shows that our bias doesn’t really relate to anything objective. It’s delusion, but being deluded is not wrong or right, for again, that is a value judgement spawned from said delusion. Objectively, all is neutral.

Based on our delusions. These are not objective evaluations, but subjective.

Then the action was based on ignorance and doesn’t meet the goal we set. Hence, find out whether it’s possible to cooperate and neutralize any threats.

Our values are delusional because there’s no reason to seek them over the alternative other than the fact we can’t escape our delusions. So the process of fighting our delusions is painful. They are delusions because relative to the Universe, they are bias regardless of evidence to the contrary.

15

We all have common ground, as I’ve mentioned before.

We want to survive and enjoy it. If we can do this mutually with another being, we could be allies. There’s nothing stopping us.

I believe every single person on this planet has the same drives, because we evolved through the same environment.

Collision comes from ignorance. We must understand the ways we are similar, not fight the insignificant differences.

16

Sometimes someone steers off track and it drags every other point with it. This might be it. You don’t have a body, you are a body. The desires you ought to have are directed toward what’s good for you. Hence, what you should value is entirely objective—given what you are: a biological organism and social animal.

17

Our body is what provides our consciousness, but it is the consciousness we’re interest in, not the body. Desires continued to exist because they gave drive to the organism they related to.

I don’t think we disagree too much, it’s just what the focus is on. I say desires is what is important, for they give us reason. Body enables experience, so we should seek to sustain it, so we can attain our desires. We aren’t intended to exist, we do because we’re capable.

The only thing with complete objectivity is the Universe, for it is the Universe that has defined existence. All our drives are based on bias, which is not objective. However, there is no reason to shy away from our bias.

It isn’t wrong or right to be bias, for bias enables value judgements, therefore embrace it and accept your bias.

18

That’s just misleading… Consciousness is not something separate, divorced, divine, whatever. If you don’t eat properly, your consciousness is changed. ‘You’ are not a ghost in a machine.

Facts about the world are what gives us reasons to act. If we are tuned into the world, properly calibrated, then the interplay of what we are (biological organism) and those facts about the world are just what spawn our desires. You are not a ghost in a machine. You are processing inputs, given what you are.

This claim is not intelligible to someone who is not lamenting the loss of a celestial daddypurpose giver.

Wrong again. All of our drives are based on what you are. What are you? A biological organism and social animal. You can extrapolate from that all the desires that you should have, given what you are. Suppose you desire to drink poison. Is there a glitch in your software? There might be.

19

Our body is just as objectively pointless as our mind. We contribute nothing, for there’s nothing to be gained. The Universe is a system, just like a Bike. All components of a Bike serve to contribute something that allows the Bike to function.

The Universe has no function or direction, and even if it did, Life doesn’t contribute anything that inanimate matter/energy couldn’t.

This assumes our purpose is to stay alive, which it is not. We have no objective purpose.

I am not lamenting the objective purposeless of Life. I am liberated and celebrating it by staying alive. This Daddy which you speak so affectionately about provided your opportunity of Life. We rely on the Universe.

Don’t let it hurt your ego.

Natural Selection has as much will as the Universe, which is none. We survived because we were capable, not because we were intended. If we drank poison, we wouldn’t survive. It is not right or wrong to survive. Right and wrong are value judgements based on bias, which doesn’t relate to anything beyond ourselves.

To drink poison might not be in our interests, but that does not make it objectively wrong.

To say glitch, is to say ‘mistake’. Living and dying weren’t intended, so there is no mistake.

20

Like I said theres a lot of claims being made… philosophers, good philosophers aren’t supposed to speak with such certainty.