What follows is the text of the ILP chat from 10-9-05 (Sunday afternoon)
Edited for speeling and content
howdy
Hello all, - so far
Evening
Ben may or may not, he’s set it up so we can have a log of the conversation, assuming we have one
hopefully we’ll have more turnout
Well, we had 50 views, I expected maybe 5 people.
50 views? like hit and run?
One of the questions I have, are people intimidated by chat
I am
I’d say the majority are…
pretty much. I sort of expected
thirst and Aspacia, but maybe…
hmmm, if that’s going to be the case, we may have to find a different venue…
the message board allows more time before posting, chat is as close to instantaneous conversation as this gets…
Makes ivisit look a little shakey
If peeps won’t even come in here, then ivisit isn’t going to happen
that’s what I had hoped would be the attractor. Thinking on our feet.
Or our butts as the case may be…
yes, thinking on ones feet is very good, unfortunately it is a talent not very many people have
I don’t even do well thinking on my butt, but I haven’t much sense anyway
hang on I got to sit down…
shall we start?
sure
or just say the hell with it?
OK
start
Do either of you have a particular interest?
no
general philosophy or what?
brb
well, this was supposed to be about utopian schemes and issues, but at this point, I’d say let’s just have at it
back… utopian schemes? for the symposia? or general Marxist chat?
OK, Is a good society a mirror of good people? Or are good people the result of good social institutions?
ah… good society is an oxymoron… people are bred for the good of society
Most definitely, we the individuals make up the whole
fights on!
I’m particularly thinking about the prevalence of psychodynamic utopian ideas
when one has the point of view of the society, one loses his individuality…
it is kind of like herding cats…
and that is one of the questions: The tension between self-control and self-realization
too many cooks and all… but if society breeds citizens, then you have a different situation…
but if society is pre-immanent, then its structure and institutions become the controlling factor?
the society sets the standards of good/evil, right/wrong, ect. and society produces the herd animal…
And who sets the standards for the society?
yes well that is the situation we face now
we do JT
yes, the institutions set the norms and mores… from a bureaucratic perspective
Imp? You have a different view. Where do the ‘standards’ come from
we like to think we control our destinies, but from day one we are programmed through the culture and the language itself to behave certain ways…
So who sets the standards and where do they come from?
standards are institutionalized before the game starts… it is up to the player to decide if he will play that game that society has set out… most do play it… some are criminals, even fewer actually succeed at playing…
Ok, but where do the standards come from?
like I say, play the hand you are dealt, but you don’t necessarily have to play the same game as everyone…
the standards were here before the game started… historically, the first societies may have founded rules for the good of the herd… that is likely… but that’s history…
but where did the standards come from?
the herd got together… family units banded and decided certain rules
So today’s standards are historical?
larger and larger family units lead to tribes, to towns, to cities, to states, to nations…
does this account for all social structures?
they have an historical base as all things do
no, not all social structures… the structures change with the advent of tools
Not sure this matches with the communist revolt of 1918, nor the rise of Nazism in the 30’s
better medicine mean different rules toward the elderly and the unborn…
this is not Marxist history
true, I understand how a society is dynamic
Marx never envisioned anything even close to the industrial advancements and innovations we have today
Look at apartheid, how all of a sudden the rules changed
Almost overnight
but the real question should always be, not from where do society’s rules come, but why do I play by these rules
but marx is just one of a number of utopians
We could start with Plato>Aristotle>Augustine> Thomas More…
utopia… the ideal society… ask yourself… do I live for society or do I live for myself and that which I care?
Of course Marx, but there was also Jung, Adler, Marcuse, and dozens of others…
apartheid was an example of the individual saying…I care
sure, society needs more cogs for the machinery of society, but then one asks, is this all? to be a cog?
Good question, but there seems to be a great deal of confusion out there
apartheid was more than that… it was another force of individuals fighting back against the force of the previous group of invaders…
The ANC was an institution, not just a collection of individuals
the anc was nothing before the European invasion
it had no power until individuals empowered it… and until it overpowered the european government, it was nothing
regardless of the evolution, that the ANC literally forced an instant change and that all the expectations societally
changed instantly overnight
all social conventions, expectations, everything changed
it was a basic demonstration of group dynamics… one group had the power to make the other group submit and eventually the submissives gained enough power to retaliate…
it wasn’t power they had, it was society’s support
right, overnight… that’s exactly how conquering groups operate…
not all of society supported the anc… but the ones who did had more power than the ones who didn’t…
doesn’t that do damage to slow methodical historical evolution?
not at all… speed is in the eye of the beholder
evolution works suddenly with great changes
dramatic changes in societal expectations isn’t in the eye of the beholder. It is direct and immediate
it is … it is… it is… it isn’t… evolution…
the change in societal expectation is exactly in the eye of the beholder… it is they who individually see the societal expectation and change it when they have the power…
Then societal change may not be the result of historical change, but of other forces?
exactly
Those forces being?
take Poland 1940 for instance…
sure, war is always climactic
and it is non historical… but the fact that warfare itself is an historical certainty aside…
true, but the forces of change that result in war aren’t necessarily historical.
humans go to war… that is human history, human nature…
well, so far. Is not a society possible where warfare is not an option?
the desire to change society for some perceived slight by whatever means necessary, including all out war, is not unusual
true, but in the building of a utopia, is war a necessity?
well the Quakers have faired well for a few hundred years… but wait, they live on conquered land as well…
war is part of human nature… if you are going to have a society of humans, you have to deal with the basic drives that all humans have
so then a warless utopia is possible even if it hasn been tried yet?
not for humans as they exist now… but ask Harrison Bergeron
conflict is human nature, but does it have to result in war?
have you ever met a human who didn’t want the biggest and bestest? the ultimate? conflict taken to its logical extreme… war is inevitable…
yes but war is a consequence of the collective then, what if the collective was anti war?
but that’s the thing… you know it is going to happen, use it to your advantage…
Actually I met lots of humans who simply wanted peace and contentment. Not everyone worships wall street
the anti war collective would be crushed by the pro war collective… that’s history as well
wrong. Johnson and Nixon found that out - the hard way
peace and contentment require a lot of power… I want peace and to have peace I will force you not to break my peace… that requires a lot of force…
or the necessary compromises that allow both sides to win and lose at the same time
nam? that was not the same kind of war… that was a political police action from our standpoint… we never fought it to win and occupy a conquered Vietnam…
I need to go fellas…have fun
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Just like Iraq is a police action?
compromise is another war… I take, you give… and when your power is stronger, I give and you demand…
Iraq is a police action like Germany after ww2 is a police action
well, perhaps. It is true historically, but it still doesn’t answer the question of the potential of a utopian construct that inhibits the historical patterns
like I said, with the human animal as it exists now, utopia is far away…
however it could be argued that American capitalism takes the greed and desire that is in humans and directs it better than any other system to date…
not arguing that, but as we discussed earlier, evolution can happen in surges, not in slow methodical steps…
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evolution always surges
howdy tab
Hi kids
true, capitalism was the best available tool in its time as long as we had cheap labor and cheap raw materials…
have you created the perfect world yet…?
we still have cheap labor and cheap raw materials
But now the rest of the world is jamming capitalism up our butts…
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howdy thirst
Hi Thirst.
hello f(r)iends
so, have we created a utopia yet?>
I guess everyone thought it was an hour later than what it was… nonetheless, a full transcript shall be made available if I am not mistaken…
nope. Not even close. I’d probably start like many other utopians. Show dystopia first, and then build the counter utopia
Hello Tab and Thirst.
so, who all showed up?
so far us and la
I think I will say the obvious…
Wouldn’t the utopian-flipside still acknowledge (and therefore contain the seeds of its own destruction) of its dystopia…?
liquidangel was here until a few minutes ago, Its been mostly Imp and myself
Better to try to build from scratch.
ahh… LA is cool.
Of course - its where all the actors live…
I maintain that human nature denies the possibility of any utopia
sure, a dynamic utopia would have to account for and even encourage dissent if it were to remain dynamic
I agree with Imp
In fact, I think a utopia could exist absent mankind
encouraging dissent is hardly utopian
Surely utopia implies a stable equilibrium - i.e. non-dynamic
if it were in fact the perfect society, why the need to dissent?
oh but it is. Ever read any oh Harry Harrison’s ‘Stainless Steel Rat’ series?
snap
not familiar with that one…
Good lord - that take me back - I always fancied Angelina
Any working utopia must build in dissent if it is to have dynamic evolution
Perfection (e.g. Utopia) is a step outside of balance… it takes a great and sustained effort to maintain such a state
human nature denies the possibility of any utopia
sorry - I was trying to quote
that’s what I said
We would look for absolute perfection. That is stasis, but controlled imperfection is the core of dynamism
control is an illusion
how is control an illusion?
like herding cats, remember?
exactly
Anyway - I agree that human nature would fuck up a utopia - if, and only if - the needs of the individual were left unsatisfied, if we could build something that could suit all needs - then the hawks would not invade the doves…
I don’t have to control everything, just enough to maintain direction and structure
we cannot build something that suits all… resources are scarce. Isn’t that undeniable?
but if the human animal is trained, schooled, limited in his choices to react only as the society wishes, it could work… but “I am not a number, I am a free man!” or something like that…
then we slaughter most of the population (evil laugh)
Well, that wouldn’t be against my evil mind… (muahahaha
or send the non workers to the gulag
Not trying to satisfy everyone. That would kill the evolutionary aspect necessary to sustain the larger vision.
Call me hopelessly optimistic - but utopia through technology may be possible.
Utopia is an end point to the journey
When we are all metal and stone, perhaps
you are hopelessly optimistic
lol
after we meet the vulcans perhaps
A definition: The pursuit of a better way.
Well, rules for a better society: death to all criminals
[Tabula moons with cybernetic arse]
and a stone - squarely placed…
death to opposition
definitions - 2 possible “no-place” and “good place” depending on U or you I think
- Shall we call it a day?
A Day
In fact, dissention and opposition are among the major reasons a utopia can’t exist
you guys like the movie equilibrium?
OK, a meta discussion: Why did this fail? Imp and I have talked about it a little.
are we going to copy and paste the conversation in the babble section?
Before we quit - everyone give one golden rule for there utopian society
Me: Absolute equality in options of action.
never saw equilibrium… golden rule? he who has the gold makes the rules…
I think it failed because of the vast time differences… the fact that it was a Sunday… I don’t get up until 4 or 5 in the afternoon
- off Imp
Nicely
A balance between self control and self realization
LOL
might makes right, everything else will take care of itself
So when would we have it so that new world/old world could conceivable be here?
- off Thirst
that is what you have to deal with in a utopia… every human wants his idea of perfect
I think a Saturday could be better… or a Friday night…
of course, I am my own boss so I could be here whenever…
I can see two that will be blocked next go around
Tab, I think I will let my wife take care of me in the - department… hehehe
weekends are good here… Saturdays especially
ok Friday night friday night where? Tab tell thirst what time it is
Perhaps when we are forced to or die as a race - population forces
-… I just got up… it’s like 4:00 PM
Thirst - it’s 23:12
forced to be in utopia is not utopian
perhaps we can learn to enjoy our selves…? Pass the soma.
perhaps a Utopia could work in a world where every individual only interacts if they so desire
that’s 11.12 to you thirst. Do you see the problem? That’s why I started this when I did.
yes, global internet does have time problems…
isolationism - virtual world
Ummm… I am surprised some of the high posters are not here
that’s why sat or sun. I picked sun so all the folks could have a night out. Sunday most folks are healing up
Their majesties are too busy not putting their intellectual facsimiles at risk
Well, much like the Matrix… if we entered a world that we created, that was self-sustaining, and that we could make… a utopia could be reached for every person
lest they fall from grace
tentative… you fool… most internet users don’t have a life…
LOL
Part of this was a deliberate lack of promotion… True thirst, if we had a life, we wouldn’t be here
exactly! I’m married… thus I have no life… LOL
I have a life thank you - it’s just the baby hogs most of it…
I wanted to see what would happen in a low key invite. I found out
I love my wife… I love my wife… I love my wife… I love my wife… say that 1 million times
lack of promotion… I don’t know… maybe if there were more conversation before the next event… then again…
You should have convinced yourself of that by now then thirst
I love my wife…
lol
I love your wife.
Duck
LOL… many try
All sorts of ways to stimulate interest. But better promotion would have to play a part.
What about small group discussion? Would it have a future here?
How about pm’d invites…? To stop the possums getting in…
I wish Aspacia was here… I’d love to rip her live… err… alive?
I am not sure… very possible
PM’s are a good idea
I sort of expected her. But she probably expected you, and said - it
PMT is a bad idea
Of course, it would have helped if the invite thread were not locked
LOL
people could have suggested good times
or alternative times
PMS is the ultimate bad invention…
Or how about same time-zone debates…?
OK. Maybe we’ll try PM’s next time. There has to be a venue that gets the old members back into the game, and a relief from the crapola
well, wouldn’t you be - out of luck TAB?
Mind you - I’d be debating with myself - actually - that’s a good thing…
← crapola
why do you hate me tentative?
Eww… that sounds like a question my wife would ask
face it. after a few months we’re desperate to find a thread we would even want to post to
What are you thinking…?
Thirst, WTF are you on about?
I find threads in which to post all the time
I could, and I’ve tried, but I find myself saying the same stuff over and over. At some point most of the threads start blurring together
Eggsactly
Tentative: I was joshing… you said that you wanted the old members back and a relief from crapola… so naturally I said I was crapolan and then said you hated me
Though sometimes it’s fun to nuke a newby
Iron Dog was fun…
That’s why my interest in small group sessions. The opportunity to dig deeper, or even something new once in awhile.
ID was an ass
a donkey? as in stubborn?
But actually - I’m not posting as much as I used too - because I’m too clever for the old stuff, and not clever enough for the new stuff.
Anyone know who ID was?
True, but if we threw out all the asses…
Which is really pissing me off.
I have the fortunate task of visiting with him occasionally.
that makes sense tent, but you can always ask a few people you know who will converse and post the request in the babble section or something and set a time with the intended participants…
You can always invite me and tab for comic relief (not that I am in Tab’s league or anything)
.
the invitations would be open I think
Me and Thirst can be the bouncers (not that I’m in Thirst’s league or anything)
Sure, but in the open forums someone always comes in and pisses in the pond. There are a million possible but we need venues that can be locked to the intended group
No one would enter a place with a bouncer that looked like me all those years ago
that’s a non public discussion then and I am sure you can find a channel for that too…
Even I wouldn’t… I’d prolly call the police
I’ve checked IRC several times a day this last week, and it is just one big blank page.
I’d steal your phone before you could
cell phone too?
Same here - big white and blanky
ditto for me
I’m looking for answers. I’d like to see the quality of posting get better, and I’d like some sort of venue to hold the interest of the older members.
so as long as we are here… -
the quality of the posting comes and goes with any public arena… and I am not sure what venue that could be…
I think -
Imp, you’re strong in the Symposia project. Where are some of our older posters? How much crap did you have to wade through to find ‘quality’ threads?
This won’t go anywhere without some serious editing…
most are long gone… and pages and pages of crap… but then my idea of quality is not authoritative…
and yes, a lot of serious editing is needed for symposia
What is symposia…?
symposia
Doh
But collectively, we see the issues. Again, I’m no expert on what would work, but I’d sure like to see some new action of some kind…
an ilp project of the best and brightest posts set aside in a magazine like format
Ahh - that’s a fantastic idea
Pull the diamonds form the muck
exactly
The dilemma is a guest will see symposia and the come into the forum to see a thread on facials. - great
or I need cymbals
but that’s the thing… the conversation is more than facials
Jesus
here’s an idea I heard from tab or someone or other sometime ago… limit newbies to certain forums. I will only add that they should submit their potential posts to moderators for the serious forums
Anyway - Westerners - This Turkey’s got school tomorrow - I’ll disarm a few potential Muslims terrorists for you Imp.
I want your honest opinion Tab
I mean that the facial thread is only one small part of ilp… but it is part of it
Night all.
that would require moderation hours we currently do not have available
and everyone else
happy trails tab
Night tab
see you Tab
Not if I see you all first…
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yes, moderation hours with authority to alter the threads as published
I was going to ask you guys if you feel a joke thread, like the superheroes and villains one, is one of those things you view as detrimental to ILP?
the chuckle thread works fine for me
and that’s the thing, it is in mundane and rant, not the serious forums…
I know, Imp. I just picked one of the more ‘interesting’ threads to pick on, but there are plenty of threads in the so-called serious forums that are shy of any thoughtful content, regardless the subject
you know… perhaps the mundane/rant should be combined
and is there anyway we can reduce them?
yes, that is true… but if we pull the cream out to the top in symposia, I would hope that like attracts like and more would follow… then again, that’s why we moderate those sections…
meaning how can we keep fewer topics from getting onto the rant house/mundane?\
no that was a good ‘bonding’ thread. But there are threads that no one would argue is crap scattered all over the forum. I’m not suggesting that we disallow them by fiat, but to begin asking for a bit better quality of thought. If we could hold some of our older members, I think it would slowly improve the general tone of the forums
the topics in rant/mundane are not worthy of being elsewhere… aside from oblivion
I will be the first to admit that I usually only read the Philosophy forum, the Social Sciences forum, the Rant House/Mundane
In fact, I rarely post in anything other than Mundane/Rant because I am not to par with the Philosophy forum…
We all have our favorites because of our interests, but that is good. Again I’m just looking at ways to hold onto people who go to their favorite forums and go away saying been there done that
and the Social Sciences pretty much becomes rant/mundane so I’d rather post there and talk smack
anyone is to par with the philosophy forum… it is simply a matter of stating your opinion and backing it up a bit…
Geez, Thirst, even I post in philosophy now and then…
true… but I can back up my thoughts on free will only so long before I can’t compete… and it has been done to death
maybe the butterflies who flitter into the forum and then flitter away are doing as they wish… holding them there when they have nothing further to say hurts as well…
Then ask questions of the people you know can help you grow. That’s part of the deal here
Religion is part of my formal training but it typically sputters out of control when it is a good topic OR it is simply an attempt to tell someone “- Christianity”
which is OK to say - Christianity… but at least expand on the notion
Tentative… I never studied philosophy in college… I was a business major and am going to law school next year
it is only ok to say - it when it is understood what is being -… then again, some take offence at the notion of anything but virgin birth…
Religion has turned into a bit of a wasteland. Every time there is a thoughtful thread started, you-know-who comes in a takes a dump on it.
So, I am barely beginning to grasp philosophy…
I am a novice all the way… but you can be sure that I will be reading plenty of stuff in the coming years… as long as ILP is available I plan on making my contribution
Hell, I studied it for more years than you are old, and I haven’t grasped anything
LOL
I agree that Religion has become a wasteland
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Yeah Bob need help in there. There are only three or four people who try to hold a thread on track. It isn’t enough to keep out the idiots
why don’t you help him tentative? You are a mod and I see you frequent the Religion forum
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Thirst, if you look back a few months you’ll see that Bob and I have supported each other. Still do. I’m always ready to jump in and cover ass, but there just aren’t enough of us
besides, my - keyboard doesn’t know how to speeel.
LOL
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are we going to copy and post this chat in the mundane section?
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I’ll edit out the part after <—THIS DOES NOT GO ON ILP
are we still awake?
The chat groups would depend on subject interest, would it?
yes, I think that would be the case… you’d have to coordinate that with the groups
I can see members joining three or four different groups, all with different members
that could happen… if they were interested enough…
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wb tab
Or consider the philosopher of the month theme or a specific philosophical work, or even A political subject like “Everything I know” by G. Bush.
That would be a short chat
yes, that could work as well…
okay - another 2 cents - why do utopia’s fail…? Barbarians at the door - dissent from with
He’s back! Drug the wife?
within - failure to communicate the ideals of the society between generations - the dystopia from which the utopia was a reaction no longer existing
it is after midnight there and the pumpkin’s back to normal
maybe if we think how to remove these impediments we could make some progress…?
the ideals of society are always communicated… they are bred into each successive generation or society fails
true, we’ve had some interesting chats at 2 in the morning… Keeps him out of the pubs…
Sorry - had an Idea while I was putting on my jammies
it isn’t a question of training, it is how the human animal’s brain functions…
oh yes - and the ‘grass is always greener’ problem
have you read Harrison Bergeron by vonnegut?
Yes, even the most dynamic societies fail. That is why dystopia has to be a part of utopian structure, to regenerate the core principles
so the revolution cannot end
A popularity cult could keep it together for a while… Look at the effect Atatürk had on Turkey.
popularity
cults come and go… the utopia would need more than that…
“revolution” - yes - unity is key, and an outside unifier is needed
no the revolution can’t end, just be managed
a managed revolution is no revolution… it’s anarchy for sale… rebel along the paths we pick out of fear of peer pressure we create…
so what?
utopia based on a lie? tell me it isn’t so…
generations - my point was, yes ideals are communicated, but the young do not get the context - as they do not remember first hand the reasons for these ideals creation
Again dissention has to be encouraged if the dynamism is to be maintained.
the young do not get the context, they are the context, the freely deciding and choosing context that may change the utopian goal…
Consider the turn over inside of capitalism. Always got that brass ring out there. Always looking for a way to ‘beat the system’
turn over? no the brass ring is the goal
beat the system by removing competition?
No the journey is important - not the destination, just so long as there’s somewhere to go, and a reason to go there.
if everyone had a brass ring, it is no longer valued.
true, Tab, but the overall effect is to reaffirm the old ideals - just put new clothes on the dolls
but that is capitalism. A giant game of musical chairs. That’s its most important feature
and that’s the trick to capitalism… be the one playing the music.
as JFK said, “Beware the gnomes of Zurich”
We’d need a motivator - something overwhelming to cut through human natures “- you” to a unifying " - someone else…"
constant 1984 war…?
Well, they say that the second coming will do just that…
and this brings the discussion full circle… war is that motivator
No threat is that motivator
war only happens to you when you actually get a bomb up your ass
damn it Tab, it took me 30 min to get him off war. Now look what you did
no need for 1984 war, human have enough real wars as it is… but INGSOC will prosper anyway
Oops
LOL
… thus ends the relevant portion of the ILP chat
By our reckoning, London during the blitz was as close to Utopia as humanity is ever likely to get…