In reading Vlastos... Socrates

I have been dismayed, to say the least, by
the sheer hatred and inhumanity shown by this
IQ45/Musk administration… and it has been less
than 2 months since the inauguration…
and I must confess to dreaming up terrible tortures
for everyone involved in the IQ45 administration…
dreams from one who has no power of any kind to
affect or change events going on around him…

and in my studies of Socrates, as noted, Vlastos book
‘‘Socrates’’ Ironist and moral philosopher…
I came across some pages that has put a pause in my
‘‘never going to happen’’ dreams of stopping these ‘‘evil’’
doers…

the pause comes from Vlastos bringing up the point,
that committing injustice, as I have dreamt,
is still injustice… even if it comes from a place of dismay
and anger that I feel… righting a wrong, as it were…
committing an injustice to stop, potentially stop,
an injustice from being committed…
where does that put me, morally?
does two wrongs make a right, as it has been said…

if I am wronged, does it morally allow me to act with
injustice and try for revenge? To right wrongs with
revenge is a very strong motive in human behavior…
but where do I stand morally in doing so?
Is it morally right to attempt revenge when
wronged?

But Kropotkin, these immoral acts of the IQ45 administration,
have not, NOT, directly impacted you… how have you been
wronged?

Unlike conservatives who only ask, ‘‘What is in it for me?’’
I ask, ‘‘What is in it for us?’’ the actions of IQ45 and his minions,
have clearly damaged our state, society and local communities…
Is that not cause enough to ponder revenge? In a court of law,
the bringing up this case of the damage to my community, as
being enough to bring about charges, would be denied,
due to the notion of ''not having standing"" or not being
directly affected by actions taken or not taken…
and yet, I hold that because my community has been damaged,
that is enough for me to bring about, as it were, charges…

I suggest that by looking at people and their actions within
a closed setting, actions affecting only themselves, does not
exists…I hold that private actions, do concern me because
those private actions impact the community… and I am
part of that community… so, a man beating his wife, does
impact me as it damages the community, and I am part of that
community…

As I have noted before, private actions/vices, do not lead
us to a public good, only by private actions/good, can lead
us to a public good… we are, whether we admit it or not,
we are part of a community and everything that impacts
the community, impacts us, personally, directly…

and in this vein, my own private desire to punish the
IQ45/Musk crowd, is just another act of injustice, even if,
even if, it is done for good, right reasons…

private revenge, is just another act of private vices that do
not lead us to any sort of public good…it is only by
private good, can we see a public good…
despite my overwhelming desire to punish Musk/IQ45…
it cannot lead us/me to any sort of public good…
the act of revenge, however satisfying it might be,
is simply the act of a private vice…
and fairly disappointing… I want my private revenge
for all those who have been damaged by the private/public
hate of Musk/IQ45…but my own desire only leads
to more private vices which cannot lead us to a public good…

Revenge, a primal human instinct, must be, reluctantly,
must be rejected…

One might argue that by revenge, we might find happiness
and as anyone who has read the Declaration of Independence
will tell you, one of the primary goals of human beings,

‘‘The pursuit of life, liberty and happiness’’

and however much desired, revenge will never bring about
happiness… for it is another example of injustice, and injustice,
cannot bring about happiness… and what does it say about
someone that injustice does bring about some sort of happiness?
it would take someone who lacks empathy… and that means
that might bring happiness to one who is a psychopath…
for those who lack empathy are psychopaths… and
those who are happy that others are being harmed,
by being deported or jailed, are lacking empathy,
thus, they are, on some sort of a scale, a psychopath…

on a scale, my own personal desire for revenge, is a lack
of empathy for those who are acting against the community…
just as they lack empathy for those they have harmed…

but Kropotkin, then how is justice to be enacted if
we have empathy for those who are directly
hurting the community? how am I to have empathy
for those like Musk, who have severely damaged America
and its communities by reducing Social Security,
or firing thousands from their jobs… or deporting even
those with a green card… meaning they are legal U.S
citizens…

so, the question becomes this, how do I/we stop
IQ45 and his minions from damaging America beyond
saving? and how do we act with justice, and not injustice?
and what would Justice, look like in this case?

One might say, by acting within the law, but those who are
damaging America are clearly disobeying the law, defying
judges who order the stopping of some deportations…
You can’t get much more lawless than disobeying judges orders…
Where do we find justice when the entire criminal system has
been compromised by a lawless administration like IQ45’s…

These questions will begin to loom larger and larger
as the IQ45 administration continues on its path to
destroy America… by destroying the institutions that
make America great like the Social Security and Justice
Department… for civilization depends on and demands
that a civilization has strong and developed civic institutions
like the IRS and the FBI and a strong educational system…
all of which IQ45 is trying to destroy, for a government
and a country to survive…

and watching IQ45 and Musk destroying America is enough
to lead one to contemplate acting with injustice…with revenge…

and as I like to say, now what? What should my own personal
response should be to the destruction of America and its values…

Nihilism: the negation of people and their values…

and that is exactly what conservatives and MAGA are doing,
negating people and their values… so, how do we respond
to the existing nihilism of the current administration?

and not acting with injustice?

Kropotkin

One of the arguments that Socrates puts
forward is that Virtue is happiness…
by being virtuous, we are happy…

leaving us to wonder if that is in fact true…
does being virtuous, lead us automatically
to being happy?

Upon reflection, I would have to say, no…
being virtuous certainly helps us away from unhappiness,
but not necessarily to happiness… I recall the times in my
life where I was happy, and every time it was an engagement
I had with something else… in other words, happiness
is a byproduct of something else… I live with my wife,
and by doing so, I am happy… I am happy living with my
wife… happiness in this case is from living with my wife…
I am unhappy at work… unhappiness is a byproduct of
my work… and how does this connect with virtue?

How does being virtuous help us be happy?

Happiness: a state of well-being, and contentment,
encompassing joy, satisfaction, and a sense of fulfillment…
It is often associated with positive experiences, strong
relationships, and a feeling of purpose…

I don’t think that being virtuous leads us to happiness as much
as it leads us to contentment… doing the ‘‘wrong’’ thing leads
us to wonder about the actions involved…
If I were to steal something, personally, I would feel
discontentment and dissatisfaction… I would not feel
at peace, nor would I feel good about myself or my actions…
that uncomfortable feeling I have, cannot be described
as happiness nor joy… but I would not describe my
feelings in any way, shape or form, in terms of being
virtuous… I think that virtue is a mindset… that we can
virtuous without happiness involved…I am doing the
‘‘right thing’’ according to my own principles…
and that doesn’t necessarily lead us to being happy,
more like a peace of mind…a contentment that one
has when doing the ‘‘right thing’’…

is this very scientific or philosophical? Not really…
I feel much better about myself when I am engaged
in ‘‘doing the right thing’’… and that, perhaps, is
the most important part of ‘‘doing the right thing’’
I like myself better when I am ‘‘doing the right thing’’
Now one may call themselves ‘‘happy’’ in doing so,
but I wouldn’t…

So, can I connect virtue with happiness? Not that
I can see, but I am just one viewpoint…

Kropotkin

That shows your true colors. As much as I hated Hillary, I never wished her supporters any harm.

Peter_Kropotkin:
I must confess to dreaming up terrible tortures
for everyone involved in the IQ45 administration

Jakob: That shows your true colors. As much as I hated Hillary, I never wished her supporters any harm.

K: your statement tells me you either didn’t read the rest of
the post or just plain ignored it… note, I never said
‘‘supporters’’ I said within the administration… two completely
different things… and reread the post and see that I
went in a completely different way… but hay, never let
the truth stand in the way of your nihilism…

Kropotkin

What nihilism?
Ive always fought for positive, tangible values. Sometimes misguided, but that doesn’t make me nihilistic.

…in them wanting to safeguard their Peoples and their Country? …make their inhumaneness stop… :scream:

[quote=“Surya Loka, post:6, topic:81099, full:true, username:MagsJ”]

…in them wanting to safeguard their Peoples and their Country? …make their inhumaneness stop… :scream:

K: I’ve come to expect ignorance from you, so I
am not surprised… what part of their plan, cutting
Social Security or deporting people with green cards,
ignoring judges orders, cutting basic services for people…
what part of that is ''humane?"

Kropotkin

.
What part of letting an entire country of tax-paying citizens be constantly shafted robbed and mistreated by their government, humane?

You complain about your work tax and pension woes regularly, but your entire country cannot and must put up and shut up?

MagsJ
What part of letting an entire country of tax-paying citizens be constantly shafted robbed and mistreated by their government, humane?

K: and your evidence for this is? Musk? IQ45?
MY country has 330 million people, are all 330 million people
''constantly shafted, robbed, and mistreated by their government?

MagsJ: You complain about your work tax and pension woes regularly, but your entire country cannot and must put up and shut up?

K: not totally sure what you are talking about here? ''cannot and must put up
and shut up?

Kropotkin

PK literally dreams about sucking up to the State. He worships government. Anything a supposed authority figure tells him he takes to heart unquestioningly. Especially if it cloaks itself in woke language about “helping the [poor/black/gays/insert victimgroup here]”.

Lucky for me I don’t need to read the commie trash he writes anymore, but I still see enough from when others quote him, like Fixed did above. Wishing death upon your political opponents… yeah. Even just ordinary people working in the administration. Average brainwashed sociopathic libtard dictator wannabe MSDBS consoomer.

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PK literally dreams about sucking up to the State. He worships government. Anything a supposed authority figure tells him he takes to heart unquestioningly. Especially if it cloaks itself in woke language about “helping the [poor/black/gays/insert victimgroup here]”.

Lucky for me I don’t need to read the commie trash he writes anymore, but I still see enough from when others quote him, like Fixed did above. Wishing death upon your political opponents… yeah. Even just ordinary people working in the administration. Average brainwashed sociopathic libtard dictator wannabe MSDBS consoomer.

K: what I find astonishing is how every single sentence you
wrote is wrong… let us start with the statement ‘‘commie trash’’
I am not nor have I ever been a communist, I have
written dozens of threads attacking communism and
stating why I am not a communist… but this only shows
your ignorance as to what a communist is… one who advocates
the state ownership of private property… something I have
never done… nor will I advocate such a thing…
truth be known, my preferred political orientation
is anarchist… and I was an anarchist for over a decade…
lived the life and all that implies… I still believe in
anarchism… it is just not the right time
nor place for an anarchistic society/state…

I hold with the ancient Greeks that the state is a
necessity in creating human beings… to become
human requires, demands the state to exist…
we cannot find our path to becoming human without
the state…the ancient Greeks thought that living outside
of the state was being a ‘‘barbarian’’ an uncultured
or a brutish person lived outside the state…

to a great extent, we are formed by our state, and we must
discover who we are in the midst of being in the state…
I cannot become who I am without the state…
it is this recognition of the value of the state that I
understand… and comment on…
as for his many ignorant statements, about how
Kropotkin ‘‘sucks’’ up to the state and
‘‘worships’’ the state… I am old enough to
lived during the Vietnam war and Watergate
and Raygun’s presidential term… one cannot
have live through that period and still
‘‘worship’’ the state… I can see the many flaws
of the state and yet given that, I still see the
the value and necessity of the state… the state
still exists as a value because it is so valuable in
becoming human, in maintaining the security
and peace required by human beings in order
to live… as Hobbes pointed out, that ‘‘a state of nature’’
a society without a government is…

‘’ a war of all against all’’

which is characterized by constant fear, violence and
a lack of morality. It is a state where everyone is free
to do whatever they believe is necessary to survive
and life is…

"Solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short’’

What Humanized is arguing for is this ‘‘state of nature’’…
where nothing is ever accomplished because people
are too busy fighting and just surviving to get anything done…
there are no roads, no bridges, no hospitals, no trash pickup,
no sewage plants, no airports… in fact, anything that makes
us a working, operating society/state is gone in Humanzied
world…
that is a recognition that the only way we survive as
a civilization and as a people, is through the existence
of the state… a bit more realistic than Humanized
fantasy about a people without a state… where life is

‘‘Solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short’’

if that is the existence that Humanized wants, perhaps
he should make that argument of life without a government…

an argument that I won’t make because I think the state
has played and will continue to play in making our lives
easier and better…

think of a world without the government…
and note the complete nightmare that is human
life without a state… but Humanized hasn’t a clue
about the nature of being human… in which the
state plays a fundamental role in the creation of
human beings…

Kropotkin