As usual, our beloved Michael Moore tells it like it is. The Arabs already hate our guts for killing millions of their people, so why are we obsessing over breaching first amendment rights to stop a book burning? It’s an interesting take, and it’s certainly true that we’ve already caused enough damage in the ME to last more than one lifetime. And yes, I hate to see a mosque and freedom of religion held hostage by a crazed religious zealot no matter who he or she is.
Today is 9/11, nine years later. Rev. Jones has backed off. He got his fifteen minutes of fame and more. A college buddy, in a great poem about the Confederate dead in the old South, wrote, “We kill and die over symbols.” Ground zero has become a symbol of this magnitude, an icon of diviseness, not closure for those who died there or suffered loss of family and friends. Lincoln’s “Gettysburg Address” comes to mind, an honor of the dead that recognizes that in division there is no closure. In union we can move on.
In a nutshell, it means the loss of innocent lives is less significant than the loss of a single book for those who avidly believe the writings therein.
Here is another wonderful, beautiful gesture from Lansing, Michigan… an interfaith reading of the Quran.
Concerning Mr. Moore…
No one is saying that we are not, already, hated throughout the ME. But the issue here is whether we will only be hated by a past we cannot change, a fire we did not start, or will we be hated because of our actions now. America can always show to the ME that it has “turned the page”, that it has changed. “Sure we got your Mossadeq deposed, but that was then; we are your patners now.”
That line goes to hell if two things were to happen:
1- “Pastor” Jones burns the korans…if not him, then some other fuck eventually. I’ll be the first to say: That is their right under our venerated constitution. Islam is not being attacked. A muslim congregation is just as free to retaliate by burning 300 KJV’s accross their lot. If only this was to happen then the ME could only object that madmen are held as religious “leaders”, and I’ll for one will agree with them.
But…
2- Legal shenanigans continue to pressure the Iman to “relocate” his religious center, or if “Pastor” Jones was to succeed, then I would understand how that would be a new and greater insult than what had come before.
The US has always maintained that Islam was not the target, that they respect religious freedom, that they respect Islam. Against these positions, an Al-Qaeida will show you video of hundreds of Quorans burning before american demonstrators. The ME audience is not an impartial audience. They already hate our guts, as Moore has pointed out. But maybe a moderate would say: “Well, that could mean only a small group of nut-jobs in an otherwise friendly nation towards Islam.”
- “Oh really?” would say the recruiter and he would roll the tape showing Brian Williams reporting from New York that Iman Rauf has been blocked from building his islamic center “near” “Ground Zero” (Maybe he relocated a bit further away, or maybe he will be asked to build it in New Jersey.)
If both proposoitions occured then the we would lose a lot of credibility among moderates, those who are not as stupid as Mr. Moore imagines, those that in fact do not hate the US, who in fact was educated in America and probably works for american interests, and who dreams about the freedoms we enjoy in america being implemented in the ME. Maybe it is that young girl who wishes to look like Gwenyth Paltrow, or maybe the student in an Iranian University who is fed up with it’s theocracy.
People don’t just hate america. they hate what we do or don’t do. They hate our double-standards most of all. They hate, in many cases, what some within america, americans themselves, hate about america as well.
Just because we are hated for what Bush did or what Reagan did, or for our unconditional support (though under Obama this is waining, whether he admits it or not…which is why Israel has a plan in place to bomb Iran…) of Israel, does not mean that we should not worry about the effect that a nut-job like Jones can create. I think that it will be negligible provided that we are consistent in supporting HIS RIGHT to burn the Koran, or any other book he so desires, and also Iman Rauf’s RIGHT to call a building he owns whatever he wants, and to purchase any available property wherever it is for what that building was intended for- which of course is to invite guest, invariably of the religious preferences.
People make to much a big deal about the location. In the Pentagon they have a small hall dedicated to the memory of what happen on that day. A person, whatever his religion, is allowed to pray there. Is the Pentagon profaned? Didn’t innocent people died there too?
If we step back far enough to have an encompassing world view, the problems of devisiveness among religions centers around education. Islam presents a problem because too many of it’s adherents are educated by a clergy-controlled education system. If the sum total of your education is “holy books”, then the results are predictable. One only has to look to Europe when education was controlled and disseminated by the christian religion. The extremists inside all religions may be educated, but in the most narrow sense of the word. If there is ever to be an end to extremism, the answer lies in education beyond scripture, where extremists can selectively pick and choose what their education will be.
I agree with Michael Gerson of the Washington post today whon today opined:
“Responses to the Jones threat were understandable at every stage – understandable for a competitive media to cover, for a concerned general to confront, for a president to clarify America’s commitment to tolerance. But overall, the reaction was a terrible mistake. The idea that an unbalanced pastor with an Internet connection and a poster can cause our nation’s highest military and civilian leaders to respond is an invitation to global crackpotocracy – rule by the most creative and outrageous lunatics.
At some vanishing point of stature and influence, provocations need to be marginalized instead of confronted. We could begin here: If a pastor has fewer than 50 congregants, and his daughter says he “needs help,” perhaps he should be ignored.”
Felix when have you not seen USAins not rubberneck at something that is out of the ordinary? Car accidents or a loud ignorant pastor, it makes no difference, the majority of us have to stop and look. This was a massive case of worldwide rubbernecking. But, this rare time, I think it did some good. It did get both sides talking to each other more.
As long as there is talking in any form there won’t be shooting.
Really? You can’t think of anything any other religion, like say Islam, who’s practitioners have done anything recently that would be just a little worse?
It’s funny, my D&D group in college engaged in a set of conversations that may as well have been a play re-enacting the sentiments in this thread.
First, one of them came in with a Koran, talking about how the Islamic center down the street is ‘Graciously willing to let people have them for free’ and what a great thing it was with all the ‘recent tensions’. We talked about how interesting and Enlightened it is that the Koran contains most of the same teachings of Christianity, what a peaceful religion it is, and how much it has to offer us.
Within a couple hours, those same people were reaching consensus that the Catholic Church opposes contraception because it’s part of their secret plan to wipe out black people. No, I’m not exaggerating.
Really? You can’t think of anything any other religion, like say Islam, who’s practitioners have done anything recently that would be just a little worse than threatening to burn some books of a rival faith?
It’s funny, my D&D group in college engaged in a set of conversations that may as well have been a play re-enacting the sentiments in this thread.
First, one of them came in with a Koran, talking about how the Islamic center down the street is ‘Graciously willing to let people have them for free’ and what a great thing it was with all the ‘recent tensions’. We talked about how interesting and Enlightened it is that the Koran contains most of the same teachings of Christianity, what a peaceful religion it is, and how much it has to offer us.
Within a couple hours, those same people were reaching consensus that the Catholic Church opposes contraception because it’s part of their secret plan to wipe out black people. No, I’m not exaggerating.
I don’t doubt the truth of that statement Ucci, but, uuuuuummmm Where the heck is the logic in it?? Opposing contraception in order to wipe out black people??? How the heck can that even happen ?
When I typed that it appeared to me that the guy was intentionally trying to incite violence. So that would not be be too much different than Bin Laden who succeeded in inciting people to murder. As it turns out the “pastor” was motivated more by attention seeking and, when he got what he wanted called it off…until next time.
Well the Iranian President decided to incite at the UN just as our president decided to incite there too. Sometimes I think the UN is sort of a big league Kindergarten. ](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/uploads/default/original/2X/7/7c349bf1053f368a5729d053e1e91215f22ce66c.gif "Brick wall"){kind=small}
The UN has turned into a joke.
Right, they never should have let all those foreigners in.
The UN is principally a council of agreement.
That’s ultimately all that it is.
People talking about whether they agree with each other. If you don’t agree with the UN; then you just don’t get the perks.
America didn’t agree with the UN; why the hell should anyone else?