Infinite-infinite universe explains all

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
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This thread is proposing the infinite-infinite universe where all conceivable possibilities exist within our infinite universe. This theory completely allows any contradiction within it’s terms because that would be just another possibility (or combination) so a red planet exists and doesn’t exist at the same time. Anyways the theory is COMPLETELY CONTRADICTORY and makes no attempt as to limit the contradictions. IF every conceivable idea, concept, matter, universe, planet etc. exists then there is no need for any explanations of anything since everything is just a given combination from the infinite amount of combinations. You need to explain something if there is only one possible path within a multitude, but in the infinite-infinite universe all the paths are simultaneously present including no paths and only a few (there goes the contradicton which is acceptable). This is somewhat an aesthetical view of the universe.

The theory of the infinite-infinite universe is the theory where everything including all contradictions are present and acceptable.

I also want to add that you must be careful as to what you are referring the infinite to. If you are referring to an infinite universe in space extension or time extension but within the physical laws of our universe as known so far, then all these weird possibilities (planet of elephants) are most likely not possible. But if you refer to an infinite universe in terms of “possibilities”, “concepts”, “laws of physics”, “combinations” in other words an infinite universe in terms of all possible “concepts” conceivable, then you are no longer dealing with the realm of physics but metaphysics and philosophy and thus the infinite-infinite universe with all its acceptable contradictions.

This is the ultimate theory. The grand unified of physics etc. because by accepting an infinite universe in all possible concepts like combinatorial, conceptual etc. (therefore not only in dimensions or time) you automatically get everything. Therefore for example the presence of life in one slice of the universe is brought about through the theory of evolution, in another it just pops out all done out of nowhere, because it is just another conceptual combination.

Actually if you think of how many quirk chances have to be met for us humans here to communicate through the net using are traditional scientific explanations, this confirms the theory. There are just too many combination of elements and chemical reactions and evolutions of mankind to possibly be done in a few billion years. Why does our planet have just the right amount of metals and extractable just in the right combination for humans? How did humans even possibly develope science when we know that in primitive societies no one has any kind of individuality or inventiveness because peer pressure of the group is extremely high, so even science is a really long shot quirk chance. It is like trying to explain the appearance of a color TV on mars without the humans. But if you accept the infinite-infinite universe it is all explained as being just another combination. It is like trying to explain how a color TV evolved on mars from scratch. You could probably invent some insanely impobable combination of events that ultimately bring you your TV but it is less far out to just accept an infinite-infinite universe where it is all present.

Explanations are just washed away by the shear number of combinations. Cause and effect is just one possible mechanism amongst an infinite combination of inventions of mechanisms.

Sooner or later somewhere in our quest for the ultimate you will have to deal with contradictions. So this theory makes no attempt to avoid them but considers them an integral part since infinity contains all including contradictory elements. It is hard to graps but this is the ultimate last theory. All explanations are an aesthetical device.

Amongst the infinite combination of universes there is a universe where being alive is the same as being dead etc. We are only in one particular combination where this is not true. In our local slice the laws of physics are operating. Of course there are all kinds of permutations and you can envision a slice that is half like our universe and half like one where alive and dead is the same etc.

We can’t grasp all the combinations and the contradictions, but if the universe is infinite conceptually, then the infinite-infinite universe is the final theory.

What may be confusing is the word “infinite”. I am referring to infinity “conceptually”, that is every possible idea, implementation mechanism etc. along with infinite extension in space or time. But it is maybe better to imagine a universe of all possible “possibilities” or all possible “concepts” more then extensions. That is why the theory doesn’t challenge any of our science, it is just a superset of universes with along all imaginable concepts. It is different from the parallel universe theories because they are somehow tied up with our physics, but this is a superset of all possible physics. I would say that it is more a philosophical and metaphysical idea and cannot be proved scientifically in any way I think.

As an analogy it is like when they discovered the zero. No one noticed that there could be an entity that is zero. This is similar in that this theory proposes a kind of totally full set of every conceivable idea, possibility etc. It is even hard to explain exactly because it is infinite exactly in the “conceptual” sense.

Cause and effect is just an aesthetical choice.

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I think if we want to consider ANYTHING “infinite” we must first try to understand what infinity truly is, and to be quite honest…I dont think anyone knows what that is in its purest sense. Therefore, does it really exist to a lil baby human like myself? Should it be part of my vocabulary of concepts…hmm idunno.
It seems irrationale to think of anything as “infinite” in my opinion. Infiniti just creates room for mistakes. Unicorns do not exist but in an infinite universe I cannot say that, right? well my limited rationale tells me to nake it completely objective to believe that Unicorns cannot exist or else there would be people making machines to clean unicorns or unicorn hotels for no reason. Now if one day, in 1 million years, we find a unicorn then hell yea lets stick em in there with our human rationale, but for now I believe the “human” universe should be looked at with total objectivity. Not infinite in its its PURE sense but infinite in its relative sense…relative to us puny little girly humans.
I understand that people like Steven Hawkings use the infiniti element in their conceptuall equations, but those are used to rationalize very very abstract theories like the black hole and such. And also, they use “infiniti” ONLY after researching and understanding the already “known truths” of the universe so they have license to use “infiniti” however way they like.
hmm, Is the universe a place where anything and everything is a possiblity? I think this is what your argument brought to the table.
Is my body capable of anything? I wish it was but it has limitation. “but ur body is not a universe”, you may say. My body was CREATED by the unsiverse therfore wouldnt it be a rationale for me to believe I am a small piece of ot it? I mean i did not come from outside the universe, so I am a literal part of it. So why couldnt I call my body a small universe…My solar system is like a small galaxy, no? almost the same exact rules dealing with gravitational pulls and such? Different scale, same basic concepts and “rules”. We humans seemed to have rationalized quite a disatance into the universe if that makes sense…probably doesnt.
Humans understand what FINITE is more than INFINITE because FINITE smacks us in the face on a daily damned basis. You could be totally right in your assessment. "The universe is an infinite-infinite, but humans are far from infinite and it would be a shame if the universe was that far away from us. Maybe the universe is “very finite” but just very very HUGE. and we are very small (finite). Maybe God ISNT all knowing and all poweful, but compared to us humans he SEEMS infinite because we cant begin to understand his essence, but in fact he is a farmer…He grows universes for a living and he has a family; lil baby Gods running around the fields (galaxys) and a wife God, etc. Thats rediculous i know, but it gives us a finite view of an infinite concept.
I guess all that rambling (hopefully some made some sense as my beliefs regarding the universe and infiniti) means that I believe we should be practical with our use of the concept INFINITI. The end. thnx for bringin up an interesting concept.

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Infinity is a concept with no evidence to support it in known reality.

Plato abhorred the concept and figured someone would eventually point out it’s absurdity.

The problem if all possibilities exist and are valid is Reality would suddenly find itself devoid of any purpose, or meaning.

And since Philosophy studies the meaning of life, it too becomes a useless excercise since structure instead of helping us get towards the truth actually in a very strange sense would lead us away. SO there goes any shred of a foundation on which to build upon.

Thinking of infinity in this way that Reality is wide open with all possibilities valid actually self defeating in the same way Nihilism is. Those who believe we can’t know anyhting for sure defeat their very reasoning of why they believe something (READY for THE CONTRADICTION) that tells them they can believe NOTHING and everything is suspect including what I just said.

SOON, my friend we have nothing to discuss REALLY and this page therefore turns white with nothing written here. But, then again, some may consider that NIRVANA.

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…the perfect reply to the “ultimate theory”! But note, that philosophy on the internet has achieved THAT status a long time ago without the encumbrance of enlightenment. Portable philosophers have always travelled light in their presumptions.

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The will and the imagination are tools that we have been given.

The concept of infinity as a truth is submission of the will to the imagination.

It is weak, self-destructive, unbalanced and un-inspiring.

Infinity is a number and concept that embraces chaos.

The number one is a concept that embraces order.

verification of infinity requires submission to it.

I KNOW!!!

Lets all just sit around and count until we die.

OH wait theres probably one of all of us already doing that.

Lets all just jump off a cliff, one of our other selfs in an alternate universe can continue living our lives for us. yyaaaaayyyy!

weak.

No infinity is not possible. At least in regaurds to the human mind logically deducing its limits or proving it true or not.

Perception IS indeed infinite But that perception takes place in at least one form in ONE body at ONE time in You while You are reading this.

Time moves forward and space changes with it.

If all perceptions were simeontaneously true, then the ultimate unifyer would be one single all powerful being who is always ahead of the speed and priority at which all other things below it can adapt.

Human perception is just that, perception. it is not the will of a person.

The more inspired the will is, the less it will submit to the imagination’s ability to perceive things which would enable doubt instead of consideration.

If our ancestors had taken this percpective, then none of us would be around. Why would any of them have tried to survive at all if they were just one of an infinite number.

I dont think my ancestors were ingorant of the concept of infinity. If they were, then praise God they didnt submit to it.

The LESS dicplined the mind is, the more it submits to it’s own ability to always perceive something in a different way.

The MORE diciplined the mind is, the more free it becomes to posture itself willingly, logically, strategically, considerately and at the very least to strive for something.

INFINITY AS TRUTH IS A SELF-IMPOSED mind trap.

It is submission of the will and of any responsibility or motivation one might have to achieve anything.

Playing a single musical note at the same pace forever will achieve little.
You must at least submit to the process of playing and accept the uncoordination and fluidity to learn from the imagination.

But a martial artist can use the same redundant tactic when punching the air and achieve unbeleivable coordination.

“The body teaches the mind but it is the mind which leads the body.”

                                         - Moriehei Ueshiba,
                                            founder of Aikido

Why submit to chaos when you can coordinate it.
Leave the submission to the hippies.

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This comment seemed set apart from everything else you were writing about. If you can, please elaborate more on what you mean by this…how was it a choice to begin with?

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Does 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
exist?
What about the number 5. Whats the diffirence. Well you can point the number 5 out to me. You can show me 5 fingers, and tell me thats the definition of 5. But, assuming the number I wrote above is big enough, we have never been aware of such a large number of anything. Does that mean it does not exist, and to submit to its truth is undiciplined as Americano says. Well…

Consider I am only aware of 5 fingers. I cant raise my other hand for whatever reason. I evaluate the diffirence between 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 fingers. I slowly figure out simple arithmetic. 1 and 1 makes 2. 2 and 1 makes 3. So on so forth. But then I encounter the problem of 5 +1. What the hell… Lets imagine a bigger number and call it 6. I cant see six, thus, according to Americano ide be undiciplined to accept its truth or existence. But that would mean the laws governing the relationships between the other 5 numbers just suspends itself at 5. Thats sort of tough to believe. So what now. Oh crap, I have another hand. Holy crap! 6, 7, 8, 9, 10! They all exist. Damn!

See what Im saying. Infinity is a logical conclusion of a logical process, mathematics, just keep adding 1. Though empericism is the only way to truly be aware of any truth, valid logical argumentation of empericly proven premises produces highly probable conclusions. Even if we find out that the whole universe indeed is only comprised of exactly that many (the big number above) of the smallest particles, and it gets no bigger, I would still be very much inclined to believe that theres a number 1 bigger than it, becuase its hard for me to believe that the logical laws of mathematics just cease to exist at some point.

Thus I just dont know if infinity exists, but it seems logical doesn’t it. I know I didn’t address the question of infinite universes, but Infinity is a tough nut in and of itself, its both logical, and realy hard to accept. So my point is, dont be so fast to throw out this concept, just becuase we cant percieve it. Perception is not the only tool to provide evidence, logic is as well.

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It is actually a very abstract theory. The infinite I am proposing is the “FULL SET” of all conceivable possibilities , cnocepts , universes, laws etc.
It is not any kind of material or mathematical infinity and not tied to our universe or laws pf physics. We are just in a small slice of the universe where all our science and logic is coherent and correct. There is another slice where some laws are different and since the possible combinations are endless then you have an infinite universe “CONCEPTUALLY”. Of course you end up with all kinds of contradictions, but this is totally acceptable.
That is why any explanation becomes just another “invention” and therefore an “aesthetical” object.
Is the theory uselful? I don’t know., was zero useful in mathematics?
I think the theory confuses because we have to imagine the other slice “somewhere” but it IS anywhere in any kind of explanation or in any design or invention you want because it is all contained in our infinite-infinite universe.

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Well, as I see it, even if this theory is true, until the people that propose this theory find a way to travel amongst or at least become aware of these slices, then we should only concern ourselves with the natural laws and physics of our particular slice. What conclusion does that theory suggest? How should we change the way we act if we accept this theory. It seems pointless to me unless that inter-universal travel is discoverd or it is found that each slice has some influence on another. Its like, why should a lion in africa worry about the antarctic, yea, maybe theres a big land mass made of ice out there, but whats it matter to the lion… unless he can build a boat to get to it, or the melting antarctic raises water levels in africa. Give me a way to see it or get to it, or give me reason to believe the other infinite univirses somehow affect me, and I will find value in the theory. Otherwise its meaningless.

There is another reason such theorys can have value. Often times scientists propose crazy theorys in order to unify seemingly contradictory scientific conclusions. Theres probably some absurdly complex mathematical derivation that seems to suggest one thing that is in conflict with some other derivation or conclusion, and thus scientists imagine a universe in which such conclusions can co-exist. They then search for evidence of their theoretical universe in order to get a more unified theory. This is a fundamental persuit of science, but it none-the-less relies on the scientific method and emperical evidence. Thus if this is in fact what the infinite-infinite universe theory was created for, then it is up to the creators to investigate its plausibility.

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The theory is true and demonstrated because it accepts all contradictions within it, even the fact that it is false. It is at this point that we can hardly behold the infinite-infinite universe because it is the only thing that is definitely true! Contradictory item is the only one that is true. OF course all logical discorse falls apart, and you can say nothing or everything, but it is like the zero. The “FULL SET” wherever it is.

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I can also say that the theory is false because “I SAY SO” and therefore overide the “FULL SET”; such is the extension of this set…but the set doesn’t exits ETC. ETC…

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The theory introduces “Every conceivable thing imaginable”. It is like having a superset where you have both a universe that has the FULL SET and one that doesn’t. But the superset can’t be seen as having a spatial extension because since all contradictions are allowed you can have that the superset exists and doesn’t or that the superset is contained in the universe that doesn’t have the FULL SET. Even the concepts of containment, larger and smaller, existence etc. fall apart.

The point is if the universe exceeds our “LOGIC” than anything is possible.

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Has somebody been reading Rucker’s “infinity and the mind”? :stuck_out_tongue:

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Ok Nameta9, if you want to beleive in infinity thats fine… but…

Why are you calling it a theory.

The entire reason theories exhist is so that they can be tested.

A theory itself is only complete as its last test.

It seems like you are to willing to question every foundation that one would logically deduce what is true or not to actually know anything.

If your theory is based off of only questions and no expieriments, then im sorry , but it is not a theory.

If it cant be tested, then you are taking the cornerstone of theoritecal logic out, which is being in a constant state of consideration.

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I think the infinite universe is infinite in the same sense a fractal is infinite or how you find infinite patterns on shells, but not infinite possibilities. Picture an atom, to me, it could resemble a universe. In this case, humans, themselvs are just a bunch of “universes” connected and the atoms themselvs are just a bunch of “universes” connected, etc. etc. for infinity. Not sure what a fractal really is, but from what I know it is an infinite pattern governed by a law of mathematics (a contradiction). You are looking at everything within the universe but not the universe as a whole One. Infinite itself has to be balanced by finite, infinite and finite become one. For infinite to exist you have to have something to compare it to which would create finite. For good to exist, you have to have bad to compare it to. For a physical body to exist, there has to be an opposite to compare it to … (getting off subject). The universe is infinitely finite.

I don’t agree that there could be unicorns because to have a horn like that would mean it evolved to need it somehow. I think the horse would need to evolve to have a thicker neck and maybe even body with more muscle to support it which would most likely change the appearance altogether and maybe come out looking like a rhino? Am I correct when I say you believe there could possibly be unicorns and dragons and anything? You could associate this type of “logic” to your whole theory.

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The FULL SET is all possible “possibilities imaginable”. Now where it is “physically” or even if it is true or false or even all its internal contradictions are not relevant because the theory is a pure metaphysical item. It is just an abstraction like the zero in mathematics. Therefore its existence is confirmed because a contradictiory item is the only item that is true because even if it is false it can be assigned as true and existing and even if it exists it can also not exist.

Do not confuse the infinite possiblity with any physical theory or scientific theory because it is not a scientific theory but a metaphysical-philosophical theory (along with any contradictions you may create…).

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This theory has been proved true. Therefore this is the ultimate grand unified theory of physics. This theory is true even if it is false because within the infinite-infinite universe all contradictions reign.

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Let’s play “spot the logical fallacies in N9’s argument and subsequent conclusion”
Who want’s to go first?

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After a long time, no one was capable of finding out any contradiction here. So then the infinite-infinite universe explains all and all contradictions reign. This marks the end of science as all has been explained.