Intellectual Repression

This issue is one that has really bothered me. This is my general argument:

Background:

When I saw my six year old sister arrive home from her catholic grammar school the other day, she told me about the crucifixion of Jesus. I immediately cringed but bit down and suffered through a six year old child’s account of a story about the brutal murder of a man. As the day went on, I began to think about why I suffered through that story and didn’t stop her to tell her that nobody can prove that, and that other people believed differently. I was allowing for a religion to take advantage of my little sister’s impressionable mind. I felt like a lousy big brother. If my sister didn’t have someone challenge her views like I had mine challenged (luckily) she may continue to preach this idea, and even worse, believe it to be as true as the math and spelling which she learns alongside religion.

When that thought came to my head, I must say that I was overwhelmed with a sense of paranoia and nausea. As of 2001, 76.5% of Americans say that they are Christian (52% Protestant, 24.5% Roman Catholic). This is troubling to me, initially because I’m confident that religion is being used as a tool of intellectual repression when I see such extreme numbers. When my parents raised me, they raised me Catholic because that’s how they were raised. Until I was able to make my own ethical and moral decisions and willingly learn more about different faiths and philosophies (due to others challenging my views), I was a “Catholic.” I use the term loosely because I didn’t know what it meant to be a Catholic in the true sense of the word.

Intellectual Repression:

Why can’t the majority of people simply choose their faith when they are of a proper age to do so, instead of when they are still learning how to read? Why is it up to the minority to educate the majority on their ability to pick their faith or lack thereof? I think that the issue is that we don’t have enough people who are willing to spread awareness on this matter. I’m confident that everyone believes that it is a basic human right to believe what you want to believe. These same people believe what they do because their parents told them to do so from when they were babies. I think that people need to be made aware of this issue and they need to take control over their ability to believe.

I call this inability to believe what you wish, intellectual repression. The sneaky thing with intellectual repression is that your thoughts aren’t your own, and because of that, your actions are influenced. You are influenced in your actions because of being influenced in your thoughts. Yet while we know this, we either watch people become repressed or become repressed ourselves.

Intellectual repression, as will be shown in later sections, can and does lead to such things as prejudice. Wouldn’t it be great if prejudice based on faith or non-faith was removed from our country’s society? With the spread of intellectual liberty, you will see such prejudices hindered greatly, if not, abolished.

Beyond the realm of Christianity:

Before people think that I am attacking just Christianity, let me clarify. My issue is with the way that children are having faith imposed on them when they don’t know any better. It just so happens that in the country in which I reside, Christianity is the dominant religion, as shown in the numbers presented above. So in my argument you will often hear me refer to Christianity and its dogma, but this is simply a numbers game and if any other religion had been the dominant force in this country then it would be that religion which would be giving me the greatest amount of anxiety. My message does spread beyond Christianity, however. I will often use Christianity as an example, but my issue applies to any case of imposed beliefs.

Taking Advantage of Children:

Given this horrible trend that exists, children are being told that as long as they believe something then they are good and will be rewarded. The children, not knowing any better, think that they are being taught something new and true (since they are taught this alongside math and reading) rather than a story which lacks any factual evidence, whatsoever, and that rests on faith alone. I then think about how the children will grow up with these notions of right and wrong which aren’t practiced by the followers of this faith, and will either grow to a point where they are taught the reality of their beliefs and realize that there are none, or continue to grow ignorant of their beliefs and spread the idea to their next of kin.

If we, as parents, brothers, sisters, or guardians can educate ourselves and the younger generations on all faiths and non-faiths and teach them that it is alright to be of a different faith, we will be living in a country that accepts faiths and non-faiths and that doesn’t discriminate based on what you think a religion preaches. Islam is a fine example of this. After September 11th, Muslims were all labeled as terrorists, and most still are. When I got on a train to New York City and a group of Muslims also boarded, some people stared at them for the entire ride simply because of their “terrorist tendencies.” If these people were educated on the Islamic faith when they were younger, this misconception about Muslims wouldn’t be an issue. It is very much against the Islamic faith to take the lives of others. Yet, since their parents didn’t educate them, this prejudice remains.

With a wider knowledge of religious faiths and non-faiths, we will see a decrease in prejudices that are tied to religion.

The Dormant Theory:

In my generation (I’m 19 years old, and a college sophomore) my peers seem to care less about religion. Initially this may be an exciting notion. The problem is that regardless of their lack of care put into their faith, they still claim to be Christian and plan to raise their children as Christians. I see that which has been imposed upon them as simply lying dormant rather than not being cared about. During their college life they don’t have to care about religion, but when the issue of religion is raised and they are forced to face it, they will succumb to what has been ingrained in them. Those who are raised to believe in a religion, unless they take a stand against it, either continue to spread their religion or sit back in quiet observance as a single religion completely takes over the minds of others.

This generation must really understand the importance of intellectual liberty and be willing to make a change because their children will be the generation that will be the clean slate, the tabula rosa, if you will, and will have the chance to be raised free of intellectual repression. Due to this being the case, my generation must really be willing to give their children the proper education on religion and religious tolerance.

“The Village” Theory:

I think that it is time for the people who support intellectual liberty to spread the message of this intellectual repression that occurs in our everyday lives. Forcing children to concede to a religion when they are impressionable is cruel and inhumane, in my opinion. If a parent were telling his or her children about the latest horror movie where a man sacrificed himself to save his children, they would be deemed a bad parent since children shouldn’t learn about those sorts of things. However, it is alright to tell the story of Jesus simply because it is tied to religion?

Some parents raise their children as Catholic and once the children make Confirmation that parents “allow” for them to decide if they want to go to church or not anymore. While this sounds generous to the ears of some, it is just furthering intellectual repression. The 13 years that a parent “educates” a child on a single religion will be 13 years that the child must later decide to go against if they begin to question their faith.

This is a horrible struggle for any parent to make their child go through. To have to question the validity of the 13 most impressionable years of your life, is unarguably difficult. I call this “The Village” syndrome. If any of you recall M. Night Shyamalan’s movie, “The Village,” this point should be perfectly clear. The movie was about a group of people who lived in an isolated village in 1897 Pennsylvania. There is a tale that is told that if villagers travel into the woods surrounding the village they will be devoured by deadly, inhuman creatures.

In fear of the woods, the villagers don’t question the tale and never venture into the woods. However, when one of the men, Lucius Hunt, is injured, his wife, Ivy ventures into the woods in order to reach a nearby town with the remedy. Upon facing her fear of the woods, and reaches the end of the woods, she discovers that her entire village is a reservation and that outside of the woods (which aren’t inhabited by deadly, inhuman creatures) lies present day America.

This trial was very hard for Ivy since she feared physical creatures killing her. This would be grounds for anyone to be frightened, but for some reason people don’t see that this is the type of fear that they are instilling upon their children. Intellectually, children have to fear something worse than creatures in the woods. Their fears are metaphysical by nature, and can get them in the comfort of their homes, if they dare speak out against them. Is this the type of thing that you wish to submit your child to? Why not, instead, educate them on different faiths and promote education rather than fear?

How you can help:

I refuse to take a defeatist attitude towards this topic, since no great innovations arose from a defeatist attitude. I am asking for all of your help to spread the message of intellectual liberty and help promote a society that won’t imprison the minds of their children, that won’t oppress its people.

All that you need to do is promote education rather than repression in regards to religion. It’s that simple. If enough people begin educating themselves and children on all types of religions, we will see a decrease in prejudices that are tied to religion and will have a smarter society because of it.

I want to know how many of you would be behind me in my efforts to raise awareness on this issue. I think that we could make a positive change in society by helping to save the minds of future generations. If I get no backing, I will still strive to spread this message, but it will be much easier if I can count on you all to support me and spread this message. We need to break this chain of repression that plagues or society, and we need to start today!

Hi Pensuave,

welcome to ILP - you are welcome to post your ideas, your Site is available to all by calling your profile up, but the discussion should take place here.

Shalom

Hi Pensuave. Welcome to the boards.

One argument I can think of for the status quo in this matter, is that moral training should be started while the child is still young. Piety is a virtue that should be included in this training.

Also, you would expect Christian parents to teach their religion to their children, since religion is a personal relationship, not just a philosophical opinion.

As for you, have you come into contact with Catholic philosophy? It might give you something to think about that’s more on a religious level.

mrn
…resident neo-Thomist :slight_smile:

mrm,

The problem I have with what you have stated, is that although notions of “right” and “wrong” have to be taught to a child, piety is too far of an abstract for them to logically validate. Same as a concept of divinity, it has no meaning to a pre-teen child … the logic faculties are just not present.

Especially forcing a young mind to try to absorb the complexities, let alone the horrific, concepts of the crucifixion, is wrong … and detrimental.

Neither does this discourse, so far, engage the foundational premise in it’s most sublime state … children are innocent and pure, and have no need of the adult construct of “piety” and it’s proclivities.

I think you are neglecting the value of the common social bond that religion represents. Religion serves to further connect a community and provides an outlet for ethics (as opposed to merely law).
By embracing the commonality of other men and by joining together in ritual (another wonderful thing provided by religion) our society becomes more complete. Ritual has a transformative power over mankind. It allows us to work together without coersion.

I’m far too simple-minded to discuss the value of religion in the next life, but the value of religion in this life is quite apparent.

No offense brother Xunzian, but I know that you have no children, and this statement is spurious at best.

The primary community for a child, is the family. Social development of children is far better in an academic/artistic setting, than a religious one … until the formation of logic faculties during the “rewiring” of puberty. Until puberty, logic faculties are not sufficiently present to allow proper filtering/ordering of abstracts, and thus lead to continual confusion for the child, or avoidance, or emotional withdrawl.

Ritual, again to a pre-teen child, is coercive in it’s very nature. They have no way of joining the ritual logically with it’s abstract, and therefore “go through the motions” to please the parent, or become disinterested and rebellious because they really don’t care, and can’t understand.

Quite honestly, having equaled sixty five years of parenting experience through my four children … children aren’t so much aware of right and wrong, prepubescently, as they are action and consequence. No, those aren’t the same things either.

Hi Pensuave

You may be making a mistake by limiting intellectual repression to religion. Perhaps intellectual repression is a result of our tendency towards the acceptance of clever suggestion and modern sects of ancient traditions just capitalize on them.

Have you considered the amount of money wasted on fashion and entertainment for example with no lasting appeal not to mention the violence that erupts over who has the better of some fashionable thing. Could this money be better spent as a whole if we knew how to think?

Society is greatly influenced by people possessing something you believe you want telling you what to think. Advertising makes a fortune with this. But intellectual suppression suggests a loss in the ability to be able to think without being guided by preconception or misguided beliefs and misguided beliefs are not limited to religion.

So if society as a whole including religion desires to tell you WHAT to think how does one learn HOW to think and discriminate between the two? How would you answer this question?

I agree that the primary community for the child is and ought be the family unit. However, I do believe that there is an advantage to having a ready-made community waiting and ready, something to which they already nominally belong, when they do reach the level of maturity where they can appreciate it.

Even rejection of one community leads to the formation of another, again, ready-made community of rebels. When children are raised wholly outside of this community, they really lack an ‘in’. They can force it, but why? The advantages of belonging to a community aren’t immediately obvious, particularly to teenagers.

The ritual may be empty to begin with, but it is the emptiness of a violin. As people grow and develop they learn to fill that emptiness with wonderous music.

Personally, I don’t care what the vehicle for that ritual is. Religion merely seems a better vector than most, for what unified rituals exist in academic/artistic institutions?

Academic and artistic institutions can see the benefit of difference, but not that of sameness. Religious institutions can see the benefit of sameness, but not of difference. The trick is to balance these influences to produce a well-rounded individual. Who hasn’t felt the Dionysian rush of being part of a greater whole? That is a sensation which should be cultivated.

Xunzian

Not intending to interfere with the thread but in all fairness this is a modern view. Years back the student teacher relationship was valued and the difference was in qualitative understanding.

In Corinthians 12 Paul speaks of the various necessarily different members of the body but all of the body. In modern times for some reason it has become fashionable to concentrate on the one body not recognizing the differences within it.

brother Xunzian,

I am not refuting what you say at face value, but as an understanding of being a father of four developing individual entities, and a member of society.

What Nick said is true … in antiquity the value of the teacher/student relationship was of the highest order, and in the greatest sense, worked to advantage of not just those individuals, but the progression of the society because of that relationship and its’ station.

The problem is, we do not live any longer in those days, and the impetus isn’t on qualitative understanding for a developing mind, but as Pensuave alluded to, campaigning, indoctrination, and recruitment numbers.

I bet Nick and I both wish equally we still lived in the world of the venerable teacher and waiting student, but those days are gone - and institutional agendas can be deadly to a child. Also as Nick stated, this repression is in no way limited to church/religion - the difficulties expound into every area of commercialistic/consumeristic society, and they all waste the minds of the youth by indoctrinating them to place value on the valueless and meaningless.

You’ll understand better if you ever have your own children. Your perspective becomes far more combatant against society for what it does to the smallest, but greatest, amoung us.

Though the leader of the Church has always been hailed as difference, I am refering to the flock, which makes up the majority of its membership.

It’s like a rock concert. Everyone at the concert is united, through the performer who leads the organic mass.

Though there may be differences within each part of the body, it is assembled into a seamless whole. My arm is no less a part of me than my brain. From this view, the sameness is more important than the differences.

That is what religion offers.[/code]

Mastriani,
Always your wisdom is illuminating. Of course I am opposed to indoctrination, which has become the mainstay of most religions. That is, of course, something to be avoided.

 As usual, though, our disagreement stems from our views on human development.  While the mind of a child is a beautiful thing, to me it is a lump of clay waiting to be formed into something of use.  To you, it is a beautiful tree, and any attempt to shape it is mutilation.

Perhaps my views will change when I have children of my own. But, I do believe we merely disagree on how people ought develop.

Your sister attends a Catholic school. Your parents must have chosen to do so because they want her to receive religious instruction. If you have a problem with that issue, your responsibility is not to confuse your 6yr old sister, but to discuss the issue openly with your parents. Your parents are the guardians of your sister, and I’m sure they are making this choice because they believe it to be the right one.

And I wouldn’t worry too much about intellectual repression of a six year old. As kids mature they are perfectly capable of making choices of their own, many times rejecting the tradition that they receive in their youth. I have 4 children and I am instructing them in the Christian faith because it happens to be my faith, why would I do otherwise?

However, I am fully aware that they will make their own choices as they grow up, and may well reject Christianity. If they chose to do so, at least they will be left with the knowledge and structure of my faith, and will therefore be better placed to make an informed choice. Bringing kids up with no faith does not neccesarily mean that they will be able to make a better choice when the time comes, in fact the opposite may well be true.

But as I said, you need to discuss your concerns with your parents before you jump in and start confusing your sister.

That is what religion should offer. If it did, we would be in complete agreement.

You are correct, the mind of a child is a beautiful tree. But even a tree needs pruning and care if it is to grow tall, and shady, with great wealth and depth of roots.

The difference my friend, is that one of us on the path to learning how to prune, what to prune and when to prune. The other looks to the path, but hasn’t yet decided to set his feet upon it.

Trimming a tree in winter, will likely damage the tree forever. Trimming it too early in the spring will stunt its’ growth. Trimming it too late in autumn, may lead to parasites and sickness. Trimming the tree in summer, when the sun shines directly on it, and the tree is sturdy and full of vigor, only makes it grow in the best fashion.

Yes, the mind is certainly the most beautiful of trees, and ever more delicate.

Wow, thanks for all of the replies, everyone. I really am happy that this topic roused interest in you all enough to make you feel the need to comment. So I thank all contributors for helping out wit this issue.

Also, here are my replies to everyone that I feel addressed me, thus far. Excuse any typos. I checked my commetns for errors, but it is rather lengthy and some errors tend to sneak through.

Finally, I probably won’t be able to reply to any further comments till tomorrow since I have class and meetings till 5pm, and then I have to work on my paper on Paracelsus till 10:45pm when I then have rehearsal for an improvisation show that I’m going to be in next week. Feel free to still post comments, however. I will get to them as soon as I can. :slight_smile:

And if you feel that you want to contribute to the site, then please feel free to e-mail me, and I would be willing to put up your article on the site. Even if you don’t agree with the message, still send in an article, and I will probably put it up on the site. I want people who go to that site to see both sides of the issue, and not just my side.

Hi, Bob. Thanks for the welcome.

Thanks for the welcome! I disagree that one needs to learn to be pious at such a young age. I think that children should be taught to be reverent to their parents and not necessarily a God at a young age. While I am for education of different beliefs and faiths, I don’t think that it is necessary to tell a child what God to be reverent towards for the most impressionable part of their life.

However, I think that the parents are not doing it to further a personal relationship as much as a habitual one. I think that most parents have a knee jerk reaction in regards to teaching their children a religion. Of course, the parents, due to more than likely being only taught one religion by their parents, only know one religion, so to teach their child other religions, they would have to de research, themselves.

I’ve studied some Aquinas and Augustine. They were interesting, but didn’t really hit home with me. I’ll look more into Catholic Philosophers to further my knowledge, however.

Thanks. :slight_smile:

And as I said, I believe I misled you in my initial statement, since I have made the issue known to my parents.

Which is exactly the manner in which I have helped my children develop. They see what I read, they ask questions … I stay academic about it generally, with regards to matters of faith.

Often they ask if there are any books they can read, and we go to the library or bookstore for something that fits their curiosity and current understanding level.

Even against my own nature and sense of proper parent judgement, I took one of my oldest to the library for books on the occult and Satanism, because one of his friends was pressuring him to go to some “gathering”. An hour at the library with the Satanic bible, and he was ready to go call his friend with some choice words and directions to a number of psychotherapists … LOL … ah, a good son is he, much like his father … LOL.

Ok, so you’ve expressed your opinion, which was the right thing to do. I’m not sure you can accurately speak for your mother’s opinion but it does seem habitual rather than truely intentional. Still, she is the parent and you are not.

Hypothesis confirmed, I attended a Catholic school.

I disagree. When she reaches that age there will be absolutely no holding her back. In todays pluralistic society there is no shortage of options to someone seeking any religious faith.

I agree.

Because I do not believe them to be the correct path. Why would I teach my children to go the wrong way? It is possible your mother feels the same way, even if she can’t articulate it. I think you are assuming that I am a relativist and every spiritual path is worth travelling down. I am not, and I don’t.

I think the real issue is in this statement. It seems very important to you that your sister is not educated to have an exclusive mindset, i.e. that the Catholic faith is correct and that others are wrong. Your own opinion seems to be that either ALL faiths are worthwhile or that NONE are. Therefore logically you can’t understand any value in an exclusive approach to religious instruction.

But you have to understand that it only appears that way from your perspective. Not everyone accepts that all religions or none have vaue. Many people hold an exclusive view of one particular truth, as I do. Under these circumstances the only appropriate choice is to instruct your kids in this particular way. To do any less would be to deny the exclusivicity of your faith. While that may seem a little strange to you, you should at least try to understand the issue from this viewpoint even if you don’t agree with it.

I rejected my faith completely and utterly when I was a teenager. It sounds like you didn’t have any trouble doing so either. In teenage years when kids are making their own choices one of the easiest things to reject is their parents religion. In fact, I would argue that peer pressure almost demands it, and the few teenagers that hold onto their parents faith are the real rebels! How many of your friends at high school or college were really excited about attending church?

You feel that way because you see things from a certain perspective. Why wouldn’t you teach your kids about all faiths or none if you hold to the position that all or none are valuable? It’s so obvious! But if you believe that a single particular faith is the right way, and that other paths lead nowhere or worse, then obviously you would teach that particular path to your kids.

I’m not trying to get you to agree with my opinion but I hope you can appreciate that not everyone sees things exactly the way you do.

Who wasn’t bombarded with adults’ opinions as a child? And who, as they got older and turned into adults themselves, didn’t change their views slightly away from what they were taught and teach their children those views to be slightly changed over time? No one.

Hi pensuave

I like that you are trying to get a handle on it rather than just complain.

I appreciate religion as relative in its quality. This means that there is something essentially very meaningful and essential for Man within it but, being beyond our reason, becomes completely abused and even turned into its opposite as with the Spanish Inquisition which of course has nothing to do with Christianity and only an expression of cruel gullibility.

First, what is the purpose of religion? Is it just an intellectual exercise that one chooses? Is its value primarily intellectual or emotional? Do we talk it or live it? If we live it, it must be given to the young or it loses its value. You will say that it results in intellectual repression and in many cases it can. Remember, I am saying that religion is relative and manifests as between being able to transmit the deepest most profound psychological truths of man or give the means to promote the greatest cruelty onto man. On one side you have the great wise men that must channel the thought of the young for their benefit away from useless imagination and on the other side you have the ego laden charlatan who corrupts and takes advantage through this same tendency and natural youthful weakness towards imagination.

So, does one choose a religion on an intellectual basis? This will appear strange now but if one can remain open, when the time is right, the teaching chooses you. Naturally this happens rarely and a person usually just falls into whatever path through conditioning

A true teaching doesn’t make it easy for you. In fact it is just the opposite. Naturally this will not go over well with the intellectual crowd that wants it on a silver platter.

I admire your dedication but am just saying that it may be more complex then just “education” when searching for pearls in manure It requires coming to grips with human nature and what people including ourselves really want.

This will also seem odd but: “Since we are as we are, everything is as it is.” Intellectual education cannot change this. This is why I introduced the idea of “HOW” to think. It is more than just being around those who you believe think they are thinking. Learning how to think is associated with first learning how not to be a continual slave to reaction. If we are always motivated to react for the same reasons our thoughts will always be on a similar level of understanding.

The ancients knew this and, for example, it is essential in Karma Yoga but how many understand it now? Does this resonate with you at all?

Now this is real religious education. We learn about ourselves. It is psychological and opening oneself to experience new data for which can be used in the future in our analysis. Our emotional valuations are set aside so we can see what makes us fight with someone rather than get continually lost in the continuing fights. Now it is believed that if someone tells you what to think and how to act, everything will turn out wonderful. Heh, heh, heh, fat chance. We are still motivated in the same way and once the novelty wears off, it is back to business as usual,

Learning “HOW” to think may not be as easy as it seems and even more complicated in reference to religion.

This is probably going to sound from off in right field but, how do you
teach a child to be good without addressing the metaphysical? Or do you
teach values only relatively? How can relative values be a basis for happiness?

As I recently read opined: “Any culture [worth it’s name] is both metaphysical and personal.”

mrn