Is anyone here a recovering atheist?

[Peter_Kropotkin]

I think those who are attacking Freespirit are missing the point…
and I think Freespirit himself is missing the point…

he holds the holding to the beliefs of jesus is the path to the “truth”
and as those “truths” seem to work for him, more power to him…
but where he has run into trouble is suggesting that the ONLY possibility
to find the “truth” is within the Christian context… that the ‘‘truth’’ for
everyone on planet earth is within god/jesus… and because it works for
him, it must work for everyone… this ability to reduce everyone on earth
into needed exactly what he needed from Christianity… he assumes that
everyone is the same as himself and in need of being saved…he assumes
that we are ignorant because we don’t know/need god or jesus like he does…

the fact is that we are different folks and we have different needs, desires,
wants and hopes…and what drives someone like Free to hold his beliefs
isn’t what drives me or perhaps drives Mia or UR…thus we can hold to
different beliefs and still be ok with existence… I don’t need god or jesus
to make sense of my life…but the assumption of Free is that I must need god
to make sense of my life…and that free is just making an assumption…
nothing more…

but to others attacking free, his assumptions are just that, his assumptions…
you have your own assumptions that you claim is the “truth” just as I have
my own assumptions that I hold to be true…

the question isn’t whether free is right or wrong, but what assumptions
is he making and are they your assumptions?

if not, then perhaps your time will be better spent in understanding why
you hold to your assumptions, what drives you to hold your assumptions…
just as free holds to his assumptions, you hold to yours, why?

what makes your assumptions better or worthier then his?
why your truths and not his? ask yourself… why do I hold my truths?
what drives me to hold those specific truths and not other specific truths?

make an examination of the values and truths you hold dear and ask yourself,
why these truths and values and not others?

Kropotkin

[Pedro_I_Rengel (PZR)]

@Maia

So the contemporary reports of this miracle are unreliable?

Excuse me, which ones?

[FreeSpirit1983]

Maia,

Yes.

He may have threatened whoever wrote them to make them lie.

[FreeSpirit1983]

@iambiguous

@ShackledSpirit

I may be a phisophocal buffoon but Aquinas wasn’t.

Neither was Pascal.

But, unlike you, they are not here to completely ignore the points I raise.

I gave you the answers to your common points but you didn’t want to read them.

No one can force you to.

[FreeSpirit1983]

@pood

@FreeSpirit1983

“Do you ever think your world view could be wrong and you’re missing out on the most important truth there is??”

Do you?

But why should I answer your questions? Your ignore almost all my questions or points, or erect straw men of what I have said. This is typical apologetics. Apologetics = dishonesty, which is mystifying if your god is The Truth. Why does The Truth need to be carried by a battalion of lies?

If you have read even half my posts you would already have the answer to your question in any case.

Apologetics just means a defense of something.

It’s like how you’re an atheist apologist and deny the self worship of famous atheists like Nietszche and Sartre in spite of vast evidence to the contrary.

[felix_dakat]

@FreeSpirit1983

I was raised nominally Catholic and left the faith when I was in college. I then became interested in existentialism and started reading Nietszche, Camus, Schopenhauer and Cioran. I was an atheist for about 8 years.

I always wanted to live the perfect philosophy.

Their atheist philosophies are kinda fun because you become your own god.

In 2016, I started reading Pascal, Augustine and Aquinas and came home to the Church. Now I pray 5 hours a day and go to Church twice a week. I’ve also made friends with a few Christian professors.

I realize Christianity is imploding in the west. It’s sad.

Any ex-atheists here?

Are all atheists the same?

[FreeSpirit1983]

@felix dakat

@FreeSpirit1983

I was raised nominally Catholic and left the faith when I was in college. I then became interested in existentialism and started reading Nietszche, Camus, Schopenhauer and Cioran. I was an atheist for about 8 years.

I always wanted to live the perfect philosophy.

Their atheist philosophies are kinda fun because you become your own god.

In 2016, I started reading Pascal, Augustine and Aquinas and came home to the Church. Now I pray 5 hours a day and go to Church twice a week. I’ve also made friends with a few Christian professors.

I realize Christianity is imploding in the west. It’s sad.

Any ex-atheists here?

Are all atheists the same?

No.

[Maia]

@Pedro I Rengel

@Maia

So the contemporary reports of this miracle are unreliable?

Excuse me, which ones?

In the Koran, for example.

[Maia]

@FreeSpirit1983

Maia,

Yes.

He may have threatened whoever wrote them to make them lie.

Can you think of any other reason why devoted followers of a self-styled prophet might wish to exaggerate what happened?

[Pedro_I_Rengel (PZR)]

@Maia

@Pedro I Rengel

@Maia

So the contemporary reports of this miracle are unreliable?

Excuse me, which ones?

In the Koran, for example.

But you said ‘contemporary.’

[Maia]

@Pedro I Rengel

But you said “contemporary.”

The Koran was put together from reports written while Muhammad was still alive.

[Pedro_I_Rengel (PZR)]

Sorry, which reports are those?

[pood]

@FreeSpirit1983

@pood

@FreeSpirit1983

“Do you ever think your world view could be wrong and you’re missing out on the most important truth there is??”

Do you?

But why should I answer your questions? Your ignore almost all my questions or points, or erect straw men of what I have said. This is typical apologetics. Apologetics = dishonesty, which is mystifying if your god is The Truth. Why does The Truth need to be carried by a battalion of lies?

If you have read even half my posts you would already have the answer to your question in any case.

Apologetics just means a defense of something.

It’s like how you’re an atheist apologist and deny the self worship of famous atheists like Nietszche and Sartre in spite of vast evidence to the contrary.

And again you lie.

I was never talking about Nietzsche or Sartre though I think you misrepresent both. I was talking about myself. You said that I (and all atheists) self-worship. I explained why that is wrong. You ignored my explanation and go on making the same slur.

[FreeSpirit1983]

Pood,

Perhaps you’re the exception.

What or whom do you worship?

Most everyone worships something.

[pood]

@FreeSpirit1983

Pood,

Perhaps you’re the exception.

What or whom do you worship?

Most everyone worships something.

That’s where you err.

[FreeSpirit1983]

@pood

@FreeSpirit1983

Pood,

Perhaps you’re the exception.

What or whom do you worship?

Most everyone worships something.

That’s where you err.

Or you could be deceiving yourself, as humans do.

[iambiguous]

@ShackledSpirit

@iambiguous

@ShackledSpirit

I may be a phisophocal buffoon but Aquinas wasn’t.

Neither was Pascal.

But, unlike you, they are not here to completely ignore the points I raise.

I gave you the answers to your common points but you didn’t want to read them.

No one can force you to.

Giving me yet another opportunity to expose that as complete bullshit:

[b]
Actually, I was thinking more of you providing hard evidence to back up your claims about the Catholic God in regard to the points I raised here:

@FreeSpirit1983

Also, the Catholic Church teaches there is truth in all the mainstream religions.

@iambiguous

Okay, just out of curiosity, it's Judgment Day. And the Roman Catholic God is [i]the[/i] God:

You die. You’re a devout Moslem, Jew, Hindu, Shinto, Buddhist etc.

Now, some Christians insist there isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell of you going beyond the Pearly Gates. You either have accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior or…or what?

How then do you demonstrate to us what one’s fate would be here on Judgment Day?

And, again, with so much at stake, wouldn’t it be absolutely vital that you can demonstrate this? After all, all the other denominational apologists are preaching the Gospel.

@FreeSpirit1983

The Catholic Church teaches that everyone gets perfect judgment and non-Catholics and non-Christians can be saved, although it’s harder.

@iambiguous

Harder?

…again, with so much at stake, wouldn’t it be absolutely vital that the Catholic Church can in fact demonstrate what “perfect judgment” means? After all, the other denominations are preaching their own Gospels. And they might insist it is harder for Catholics to be saved.

Note some specific examples of this in regard to those who on this side of the grave are devout Moslems or Hindus or Buddhists. How might they still be judged as worthy to be saved?

And what substantive evidence does the Catholic Church provide to demonstrate that those Christian denominations who argue that one must accept Jesus Christ as their savior are wrong when it comes to Judgment Day? Are those who devoutly believe in other denominations given one last chance to accept Christ into their hearts? Before their souls are judged.

@FreeSpirit1983

This article explains it. It’s in audio, too, if you don’t want to read the whole thing.

catholic.com/magazine/onlin … lic-church

@iambiguous

By explaining it, can one reading it then be be convinced that, yes, becoming a Catholic does in fact make it easier for them to be saved?

"The Catholic Church teaches infallibly, “extra ecclesiam nulla salus,” or, “outside the Church there is no salvation.” But as with all dogmas of the Faith, this has to be qualified and understood properly. The Catechism of the Catholic Church lays out the truth of the matter succinctly in paragraphs 846-848, but I would recommend backing up to CCC 830 for a context that will help in understanding these three essential points concerning this teaching:

1] There is no salvation apart from Christ and his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Again, this is an infallible teaching and not up for debate among Catholics.
2] Those who are “invincibly” ignorant concerning the truth of #1 above will not be culpable for this lack of knowledge before God.
3] Those in the category of #2 have the real possibility of salvation even if they never come to an explicit knowledge of Christ and/or his Church."

The key words apparently being “‘invincibly’ ignorant”. If you are invincibly ignorant you may be entitled to a “get out of Hell free” card. Simply by being ignorant!!

But, surely, at the “Pearly Gates” you must be persuaded to accept that your salvation is wholly predicated on you abandoning the wrong faith and accepting “Christ and his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.”

On the other hand, sure, if there is a Judgment Day, you’re at the Pearly Gates, and it really does appear to be owned and operated by the Catholic God, why not accept all that.

Or the point I note here:

@iambiguous

Or how about this:

Let’s say person A decides they want eternal bliss so they start praying, going to a mainstream Islamic/Jewish/Hindu place of worship and giving to the poor, etc., is that immoral or wrong in some way to you, as a Roman Catholic?

Or the argument that religion is the opiate of the masses and rather than giving to the poor you should help them to organize politically so as to rid the world of poverty itself.

On the other hand, given the context you note, an atheist has to address this question by starting with the assumption that in a No God world, there does not appear to be a path to either immortality or salvation. So, sure, to the extent that person A can delude herself into believing that there is one and that going to church and giving to the poor etc., is likely to bring her immortality and salvation, how can that actually be demonstrated to be either immoral or wrong?

Only in a world where it is demonstrated definitively that a God, the God does not exist can it be demonstrated that she is irrational.

But immoral? Nope. In my view, morality, as with immortality and salvation, revolves around the existence of God.

Why on Earth do you suppose that dozens and dozens of them have been invented?

Also, it seems the only reason “the Gods” became a God, the God is that science was able to offer explanations for all the things that used to be attributed to the Gods centuries ago.

Let’s continue this exchange between us. One you abandoned in my view precisely because it requires you to go so much deeper in your assessment of religion in general and the Wager in particular.

A substantive exchange between us that goes far beyond whether there was a historical Jesus Christ. Sure, there might have been. There was after all a historical Was Muhammad , right? Same God, different prophet.[/b]

Note the answers you provided me in regard to the points I raised.

[felix_dakat]

@FreeSpirit1983

@felix dakat

@FreeSpirit1983

I was raised nominally Catholic and left the faith when I was in college. I then became interested in existentialism and started reading Nietszche, Camus, Schopenhauer and Cioran. I was an atheist for about 8 years.

I always wanted to live the perfect philosophy.

Their atheist philosophies are kinda fun because you become your own god.

In 2016, I started reading Pascal, Augustine and Aquinas and came home to the Church. Now I pray 5 hours a day and go to Church twice a week. I’ve also made friends with a few Christian professors.

I realize Christianity is imploding in the west. It’s sad.

Any ex-atheists here?

Are all atheists the same?

No.

Then you knew what it was like for you to be an atheist. But you don’t know what it’s like to be an atheist. Because other atheists may be among those that are different than you were.

[Peter_Kropotkin]

@FreeSpirit1983

Pood,

Perhaps you’re the exception.

What or whom do you worship?

Most everyone worships something.

K: and most Americans worship money, titles, fame…
but the problem with your question is the assumption that
people are, well most people, are engaged in worship of something…
I seek the truth… that isn’t worshiping… and those who seek
knowledge isn’t worshiping and those seeking that much overrated
goal of happiness, they aren’t worshiping…

you assume that people are busy worshiping and I don’t think so…
most people are busy doing the busy work that society demands
one to do…very little worshiping actually goes on… feel free to
visit a local church to see the truth of that…if, if America has
a house of worship, it would be your local retail mall…

Kropotkin

[FreeSpirit1983]

@Peter Kropotkin

@FreeSpirit1983

Pood,

Perhaps you’re the exception.

What or whom do you worship?

Most everyone worships something.

K: and most Americans worship money, titles, fame…
but the problem with your question is the assumption that
people are, well most people, are engaged in worship of something…
I seek the truth… that isn’t worshiping… and those who seek
knowledge isn’t worshiping and those seeking that much overrated
goal of happiness, they aren’t worshiping…

you assume that people are busy worshiping and I don’t think so…
most people are busy doing the busy work that society demands
one to do…very little worshiping actually goes on… feel free to
visit a local church to see the truth of that…if, if America has
a house of worship, it would be your local retail mall…

Kropotkin

Everyone puts something first in their lives, though.

I agree many Americans worship money.