Islam: The Untold Story

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
81

You’ll have to show me where I attacked you personally. Feel free to ignore my posts until you’re finished with your fasting and devotional exercises. I’m not making a case against Islam I’m investigating it. Which is why I don’t want to debate it. I asked you a simple question. You seem extremely defensive. Which I’ve come to expect. But you are quite knowledgeable on the subject. So I continue despite your verbal abuse.

Now, the partial quotation of the Quran chapter 9 verse five was taken from a letter entitled “Islamic response to the governments nine accusations” signed by five Muslims accused of helping plot the September 11 attacks, including Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. They didn’t cite the complete verse, including the sentence that says, “but if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor and leave their way free, Lo Allah is for forgiving, merciful.” And indeed those who carried out the attacks didn’t give the people they killed the opportunity to repent, so I suppose the omission was appropriate.

I don’t associate you with terrorism. I’m asking about the interpretation of the Quran a book about which you have knowledge that I lack. Reply to me or not whenever you feel so inclined. I will continue to pursue my investigation on this thread, however. If you don’t see the relevance of it now you may see it later.

Am I wrong in supposing that by “repentance” the verse refers to submission at the point of a sword? For it is God, not men who sees what is in the heart.

Unconditional peace to you! For that’s how it comes.

82

This is classic Sealioning. I recommend you Google this.

Just your previous post was full of negativity, including slandering me as being a slanderer, and slurring my faith with terrorism whilst disingenuously misquoting the Qur’an. You know this because you wrote it a few hours prior.

I even explained it in great length in the very next post here.

Once again, you exhibit Invincible Ignorance, which is the baseline trait involved in Sealioning. You literally ignore the reply l’ve just made.

It is quite sinister that you then revert to wishing me well. The better course of action would be to just not write lies about Islam, at least not without integrating responses rebutting those lies.

83

Given the complexity of its production, the time elapsed in compilation and reliance on second hand human memory, is the Quran claimed to be, in it’s entirety, the inerrant infallible words of the angel Gabriel to Mohammed?

84

You read all kinds of sinister motives into my posts. As my aim is focused on the truth, I choose to ignore them.

1 Like
85

I’m far less patient than Felix, but are you really blind to the fact that he is asking questions? He doesn’t lie if he quotes a passage while enquiring, and it isn’t a slur if he expresses doubt about your assertions.

You are by far way too defensive and aggressive for me to even engage with you, but Felix has tried to.

Respect that!

86

For a walrus, discussion appears to be a zero sum game. The goal is to defeat the enemy or drive him to submission. It seems that the Quran went through along production process. The historicity of Muhammad and the attribution of the Quran to the visions of Mohammed which were the opening questions of this thread based on Tom Holland’s book and video remain open for me. Like the Bible, it seemed to go through an extensive editing process. Walrus has raised some interesting points for consideration, like the idea of prophecy versus the evolution of thought, the latter being the usual position of modern historians. What evidence do we have for that? I’m not trying to convince walrus of anything, but neither do I find his arguments convincing. Ramakrishna said that Islam is a valid path to God realization. So I am investigating it for myself. I haven’t overcome the impression that the Quran advocates using violence and terrorism to force unbelievers into submission. Certainly, that’s what Al-Qaeda and Isis members think. They think they’re following the Quran. Why?

87

@Bob @felix_dakat I don’t understand your upset.

I have consistently rebutted your charges of revisionism, which have now devolved into the low blows of trying to pin terrorism on me, via innuendo, i.e. by trying to make me answer for terrorism, when you know the Qur’an quotes being peddled are partial and taken out of context and you refuse to debate them on an independent topic.

Your stalwart refusal to study the Qur’an and your gleeful deployment of the slur of terrorism, shows that terrorism favours your cause, not the Islamic cause.

As such, you clearly have it in for Islam (and as is seen elsewhere, the other Abrahamic faiths). Of course you’ll say all you want to do is revise their storylines and show their historicity, but what this actually means is you want to show them to be made-up lies.

When l have rebutted you on all charges of revisionism, you ignore them, and support each other in personal digs. The personal digs may not catch the eye at first glance but basically your responses will always be:

  1. Ignore my well-considered well-researched rebuttal of whatever lengthy post / video you’ve made to uphold your outlandish revisionist view, which is at best from the academic fringe.
  2. Issue a brief statement insinuating that l have a personal problem with revisionism, and that l just don’t like it. Rather than respond to my academic rebuttal with an academic counter-argument.
  3. Act shocked when l call you out for the ad hominem. Then make countercharges that l am: a slanderer, and l am blind, and aggressive. And for good measure, weave in repeated questions about terrorism, 9/11, and ignore any ad hoc rebuttals l’ve made on even that off-topic subject.
  4. Ultimately: you never ever debate me in a formal on-topic manner whereby you make whatever negative assertion you please, but integrate my responses, my rebuttals.

To that end, it is noted that you refused to take me on in a limited formal debate, where l issued a challenge here: The Yahwist Project (Revisionism of Abrahamic Faiths) vs. The Monotheism First Stance (what Abrahamic Faiths teach) - #10 by LampAndNightingale

And in fact your dreadful rage at being rebutted fairly and squarely, and your pusillanimous shirking of a fair and square concise debate is illustrated here: The Yahwist Project (Revisionism of Abrahamic Faiths) vs. The Monotheism First Stance (what Abrahamic Faiths teach) - #2 by LampAndNightingale

Which leads me to wonder, why are you still both commenting? You’ve had your chance to put it into a formal debate, with limited number of rounds so that it can’t be derailed, and replies can’t be ignored.

You refused.

88

And you, my friend, are too ignorant to understand that people with open enquiry are not willing to debate someone whose vocabulary insults them at every turn. As I said, Felix is asking, but your are too blind to differentiate. I will no longer comment, but you are doing your cause a disservice.

89

Sorry, l don’t understand. Do you want a crisp concise fair and square formal debate or not?

90

You are projecting. I’m not upset. This thread is not about you.

I have begun to study the Quran. Your statements about me are so wrong that causes me to question your judgment in other areas. If you cannot understand why an American might associate Islam with terrorism, you are simply obtuse. On the other hand, it implies nothing about you or most Muslims, who seem to be peacefully, trying to live their lives like most people on this planet.
I don’t consider myself an expert on the subject of Islam or its history as I have explained before, so I have no interest in debating you. I’ve asked you questions as someone who is a believer with inside knowledge of the subject. But you interpret this negatively and impugn my motives .If you continue refuse to have a constructive discussion on the topic, I’ll have to put you on ignore. Have a great day,

91

Sorry, l don’t understand. Do you want a crisp concise fair and square formal debate or not?

92
93

No more videos, sorry. I’ve deconstructed enough of yours and you do not integrate my replies. I take it you refuse my debate challenge?

94

Here is a positive, nondual statement regarding Islam from Seyyed Hossein Nasr to get this thread back on track:

At the heart of Islam stands the reality of God, the One, the Absolute and the Infinite, the Infinitely Good and All-Merciful, the One Who is at once transcendent and immanent, greater than all we can conceive or imagine, yet, as the Quran, the sacred scripture of Islam, attests, closer to us than our jugular vein. The One God, known by His Arabic Name, Allah, is the central reality of Islam in all of its facets, and attestation to this oneness, which is called tawḥīd, is the axis around which all that is Islamic revolves. Allah is beyond all duality and relationality, beyond the differences of gender and of all qualities that distinguish beings from each other in this world. Yet He is the source of all existence and all cosmic and human qualities as well as the End to Whom all things return. To testify to this oneness lies at the heart of the credo of Islam, and the formula that expresses the truth of this oneness, Lā ilāha illa’Llāh, “There is no god but God,” is the first of two testifications (shahādah) by which a person bears witness to being a Muslim; the second is Muḥammadun rasūl Allāh, “Muhammad is the messenger of God.” The oneness of God is for Muslims not only the heart of their religion, but that of every authentic religion. It is a reassertion of the revelation of God to the Hebrew prophets and to Christ, whom Muslims also consider to be their prophets, the revelation of the truth that “The Lord is one,” the reconfirmation of that timeless truth that is also stated in the Catholic creed, Credo in unum Deum, “I believe in one God.” As the Quran states, “We have never sent a messenger before thee except that We revealed to him, saying, ‘There is no god but I, so worship Me’” (21: 25). Like countless Muslims, when I read the names of the prophets of old in the Quran or in the traditional prayers, I experience them as living realities in the Islamic universe, while being fully conscious of the fact that they are revered figures in Judaism and Christianity. I also remain fully aware that they are all speaking of the same God Who is One and not of some other deity.

Insofar as this is what Islam and Muhammed represent, I heartily agree! That God is all in all is true regardless of the historical origins of Muhammed and the Quran which this thread seeks to investigate. The degree to which Islam affirms this is the measure its harmony with the ultimate Truth.

95

And when l rebut you, you then bring up Mossad, CIA, Bin Laden, 9/11, in separate posts, all on this thread, then wish me peace, then feign surprise and upset when l say your words are sinister and your stance is implicitly Islamophobic and that you ignore my rebuttals. May God (Allah) judge between us. Peace,

96

What is there in what Felix has quoted to rebut?

97

I said nothing about CIA or Mossad. Bin Laden and other muslim’s have cited the Quran as the basis for their terrorist attacks. Like the Bible, the Quran is subject to interpretation. Based on a cursory and incomplete reading, it contains many highly judgmental passages and much violent rhetoric. I myself reserve judgment at least until I have read and understood it better than I do now.

What, if anything, this has to do with you only you can say. This thread will go on with or without you as long as I find it interesting. From my POV your paranoia is unjustified. You began calling me a liar from the beginning of our interaction. I have refrained from replying in kind. Something seems to be lost in the translation between us. Perhaps it’s just a communication problem.

98

Filip Holm thinks it is. The terms are too ambiguous to fight over. But the New Right maintains Western culture is under attack. Islamists oppose paganism, and secularism of the West. Holm cites contributions to science, philosophy and religion that Islam made to European culture in the past. The dilemma is seen in microcosm here on ILP. What’s a multiculturist to do?

99

Both Genesis Rabbah (Bereshit Rabbah) written circa 400 CE and Surah 21 of the Quran tell the story of Abraham smashing idols, though with slight variations in narrative and emphasis, highlighting Abraham’s role as a monotheist and iconoclast.

Here’s a comparison:

Genesis Rabbah (Bereshit Rabbah):

  • Context:

Genesis Rabbah is a midrash, a rabbinic commentary on the Book of Genesis, exploring and interpreting biblical stories.

  • Story:

The midrash in Genesis Rabbah chapter 38, known as “Abraham and the Idol Shop”, recounts Abraham’s early life in his father’s idol shop, where he, as a young boy, recognizes the futility of idols and smashes them.

  • Focus:

The story emphasizes Abraham’s independent realization of the one God and his rejection of idolatry, suggesting that Abraham’s selection by God wasn’t arbitrary but a result of his own spiritual awakening.

  • Narrative:

The story takes place in Abraham’s childhood, within his father’s idol shop, and centers on Abraham’s act of smashing the idols.

  • Source:

The story is not found in the Torah, but is a rabbinic interpretation and expansion of Genesis 11:28.

Surah 21 of the Quran:

  • Context:

Surah 21, a chapter in the Quran, recounts the story of Abraham’s confrontation with idolatry and his destruction of idols.

  • Story:

The Quranic narrative depicts Abraham, as a young man, destroying the idols in his father’s workshop, except for the largest one, and then challenging his people to ask the largest idol what happened to the others.

  • Focus:

The Quran emphasizes Abraham’s role in introducing monotheism to his people, highlighting his struggle against idolatry and his revelation of the one God.

  • Narrative:

The Quranic narrative focuses on Abraham’s confrontation with his people’s idolatry and his act of smashing the idols, leading to their questioning and eventual conversion.

  • Source:

The story is presented as a divine revelation in the Quran, not as a rabbinic interpretation of the Torah.

Comparison:

  • Similarities:

Both narratives share the core theme of Abraham’s rejection of idolatry and his pursuit of monotheism.

  • Differences:

    • Context: Genesis Rabbah is a rabbinic interpretation, while the Quran is a divine revelation.
    • Narrative: Genesis Rabbah focuses on Abraham’s personal journey, while the Quran emphasizes Abraham’s role as a prophet and messenger of God.
    • Age: Genesis Rabbah recounts the story of Abraham as a young boy, while the Quran recounts the story of Abraham as a young man.
    • Source: Genesis Rabbah is a midrash, a commentary on the Torah, while the Quran is considered a divine text.
    • Focus: The midrash focuses on Abraham’s independent realization of the one God, while the Quran focuses on Abraham’s role as a prophet and messenger of God.
1 Like
100

Both the Pseudo-Matthew written circa 600CE and Surah 19 of the Quran feature Mary and a palm tree, with the Quran describing Mary’s birth of Jesus under a palm tree and the Pseudo-Matthew detailing Mary’s fatigue and rest under a palm tree, but with a different chronology.

Pseudo-Matthew:

  • Chronology:

The narrative in Pseudo-Matthew depicts Mary’s journey with Joseph, where they are fatigued by the heat and rest under a palm tree.

  • Palm Tree:

Mary rests under a palm tree, and the story emphasizes her fatigue and the need for rest.

  • Emphasis:

The emphasis is on Mary’s physical needs and the journey, rather than a direct miracle or the birth of Jesus.

Surah 19 (Maryam) of the Quran:

  • Chronology:

The Quran presents Mary’s birth of Jesus under a palm tree as a miraculous event, where she is in labor and then is provided with food and water by the tree.

  • Palm Tree:

The Quran describes Mary giving birth under a palm tree and then shaking the trunk to receive fresh dates, and also mentions a spring of water appearing.

  • Emphasis:

The emphasis is on a miraculous event and Mary’s sustenance after giving birth, with the palm tree as a symbol of divine provision.

  • Accusations:

The Quran also mentions that Mary is accused by her people after the birth of Jesus.