Liberation and oppression

In a sense, the intellectuals of the West live in the shadow of Marx, or possibly a hangover from Marx drinking booze he didn’t pay for (being a big bourgeois bastard). Indeed, when Lyotard talked about the fall of the grand narrative of emancipation, he was most obviously talking about Marxism, but I think he was also talking about Liberalism, in both the social democrat and conservative sense of the word. Indeed, I think he was talking about the whole politics of freedom, whereby society is a means to the end that is increased liberty for its citizens. And for what it’s worth, I don’t see people as being any more free now than they were a century ago, except in some limited examples which are countered by others.

The current account for the narrative of emancipation is at best breaking even.

And yet, despite this failure being recognised, we still maintain the rhetoric of the politics of freedom. Why?

I read a lot of somewhat odd websites, what are by the mainstream press termed ‘conspiracy theories’, but of course conspiracies are at the heart of normal life, particularly in politics, so this name doesn’t mean an awful lot. One thing I notice all too frequently is that the solution many of these sites offer is some or other notion of individual freedom. If only we could all be a bit more individual and free then we wouldn’t get suckered in by the shadowy elite, that sort of thing.

Personally, I think that’s a crock of shit, and simply a repetition of the same propaganda being sold to us by the shadowy elite many of these sites claim to oppose. The same is true of many popular protest/activism movements. But why? Why would a shadowy elite want to convince us of a philosophy of individual freedom? You might think it contradictory, or counterproductive. Indeed, as the saying goes, that’s what they want you to think. Ultimately, it works in their favour, and here’s how.

There are two key prongs to this philosophy, as far as I understand it. The first is a quasi-Hegelian confidence trick. If people believe they are all free individuals then they’ll become preoccupied with proving that, i.e. they will differ in arbitrary ways from even their closest and dearest, just to prove the point. I am free because I don’t listen to the same music as you. While this is, by itself, nothing new or particularly dangerous, one result on a large scale is the prevention from any unified human force challenging the authority of the state (and beyond the state, corporations, international government and so forth). This utterly works in the favour of the powerful. The Hegelian aspect is that this also primes people for conflict, as it is built into their very self-identification from the off. The elite needs conflict, so they can bring about the changes they desire. This is covered in some detail by historian Anthony C Sutton in his Introduction to The Order, a book about the Yale secret society, which brings me onto the other prong - the denial of conspiratorial history.

Any decent reader can find that modern conspiracy theories aren’t particularly outlandish given the historical examples we have on record. Many say 9/11 couldn’t have been an inside job, for example, because it couldn’t have been kept quiet. Well, even if we put to one side the various whistleblowers and leaks that are part of the public record, NATO was running an international terrorist network across Western Europe for four decades during the Cold War, and successfully kept it quiet. Like I say, history is full of this stuff. But they’d rather you didn’t realise this, they’d rather than whatever ‘facts’ you have about the history of human activity that you conceive of them as being the essentially abritrary actions of individuals, rather than the collective actions of a conspiratorial elite. Just to take one example - the current presidents grandfather, Prescott Bush, joined the Yale society in I think 1917, though I may be a year or two out on that date. Over the following couple of decades his primary acehivement was to lend money to and launder money for one Adolf Hitler. Hitler according to the official history (partly funded by the Rockefeller foundation) was a crazed fascist/socialist who hated Jews. Yet he worked with Jewish capitalists to further his ambitions.

One might interpret this as ‘just what self-interested people will do’. Or you might interpret it as ‘conspiratorial activity by an elite’. It depends, in part, on whether you buy the idea that humans are free individuals.

I have heard it said that the only free person is one one who trusts noone. To me that is like building a cage around yourself and declaring you are not imprisoned.

The only real freedom we have is in how we react to our surroundings, how we use them. You can either accept, fight or manipulate. That is your true freedom. At any rate; any freedom has a price.

Over the last century there has been an increase in the freedom of expression, however freedom of thought has decreased.

I don’t think a shadowy elite exists, which has some co-ordinated plan to enslave people as such. I think that Capitalism rewards certain individuals more than others. These are the people that make it to the top. By their nature, they want to make money and obtain power. They don’t see themselves as evil but as a group that is good, i.e giving people what they want, while they get money/power.

They reward people that think like them, as does everyone. So the system carries on. The new CEO of the New York Times will never be a Communist for example. So Communist literature does not get shown in the paper as the journalists will be like the CEO etc…

The slavery if it is that; comes from the people themselves. No one is forced to watch TV day and night, or forced not to study. They do it because it’s easier than studying society or politics, especially after working. So individual freedom by itself its meaningless, if they choose to enslave themselves. What society needs is not a redistribution of property, revolution etc… But a different way of thinking. Then individual freedom will be important.

Anytime someone analyses an institution it’s a conspiracy theory. It’s a way to keep the mad people away; the herd feeling comfortable.

I’ve come down hard on all the conspiracy theory stuff because it leads not to knowing anything, but to a group paranoia where there is always a sinister group “out to get us.” I have no problem with healthy skepticism about the bogus altruistic nature of the power people. They ain’t doin’ us no favors. But there is a decided difference between mutual interests and a conspiracy. Frankly, they just aren’t collectively, that bright. Sure, there are always governments in collusion with “private memorandums”, giant corporations in price fixing schemes, kick-backs, etc. Corruption guarantees a mutual interest of gathering up as much loot as possible in the cover of darkness. But the idea of a deliberate grand design to control the masses suggests a group intelligence that just isn’t there. The political and money people obviously try to lean any situation their way. So what? Who doesn’t? If you’d call that conspiracy, then we’re all involved in a conspiracy or conspiracies of some sort.

Conspiracy theory isn’t an open and shut door, it is a revolving door where one simply goes about in circles and gets nowhere.

I could build a case showing that conspiracy theorists are really just agents of the illuminati planted among the general populace to sew confusion and create a smoke screen to cover up “what’s really going on.” If there is a conspiracy, then conspiracy theory is the perfect cover story isn’t it? Keep them confused, keep them distracted, keep them boxing with shadows. In the mean time, the real game is…

There is a plausible explanation that the U.S. military encouraged conflicting stories about UFO sightings to cover accidental sightings of experimental military aircraft. Whether there are extraterrestrial visitors or not makes no difference. ALL sightings are alien ships and no one suspects that they saw a highly classified top secret new military aircraft. Keep them confused, keep them distracted, keep them…

I can’t see much difference between the whirlpool game of conspiracy theories and watching TV. Entertaining, mind numbing, and above all, distracting.

Are we free? We’re just as free as we can be within a given social and cultural context. We’re free to make choices, but the society we live in controls the menu of choices.

Indeed - one is blatant, the other secretive.

The US establishment has been bright enough to get away with ‘interventions’ in the histories of over 50 countries since the end of WW2, mostly involving international collusion particularly with my own country. And they’ve made more money than anyone else by doing so.

What’s the material difference between this, and a conspiracy of elites trying to run the world?

The American Historical Association, which pushes this philosophy of history whereby essentially arbitrary powerful groups sometimes work together but never as part of a conspiracy was, in fact, founded by a member of the same secret society that two out of the last three presidents are members of.

But no, of course there could be no group intelligence. After all, we’re just individuals…

Many people do conspire in everyday life. That’s one reason why the derogatory label ‘conspiracy theory’ is so obviously a deliberate rhetorical slant.

One gets to numerous places. My understanding of history and politics has been enhanced by reading the stories of intelligence agents and the like. E Howard Hunt isn’t a great writer, but he led a very interesting (and definitely conspiratorial) life. Have you heard of Licio Gelli?

Indeed, this is how many conspiracy theorists work. But that doesn’t invalidate the very real history of conspiracy that you can find in any decent book.

For five decades NATO ran an international paramilitary terrorist network across Europe, which was involved in the killing of hundreds if not thousands of people. One detail of this story that I only recently found out was that members of the Portuguese secret network were shipped to Chile in the early 70s to help with the overthrow of Allende and installation of Pinochet. And this was done with hardly any leaks, virtually no official admissions. It was kept quiet successfully. Like it or not, this happened, and it was part of a plan of political control that came from the highest level - beyond government. These days, you can find out reams of information about this conspiracy at the touch of a few buttons, if one knows what one is looking for.

If that’s not only possible, but actually happened, then the ‘couldn’t happen’ refutation of conspiracy theories is refuted by history itself.

Depends on how one approaches it.

And the means by which we make them. And eliminates those who make choices that aren’t allowed. Often by use of lethal force. All the while convincing us that we’re making these decisions free and unaffected by their work…

I guess my issue is the tacit premise that it is all part of a grand design. Uncovering bits and pieces has occurred for hundreds of years, but again. the mutal interest of gaining and holding power isn’t the same as an over-all conspiracy.

A dozen of us want to go to a soccer match. We all take a different route to get there. Is that a conspiracy? Same goal, same direction, but…

As a diversion, I guess it is harmless enough, but most of the folks have more critical things to be concerned about. Contemplating the endless possibilities may be entertaining, but I’ve yet to see a conspiracy theory brought to social consciousness that changed anything. (shrug)

If you really think about it, conspiracies do change things even if they are not real. You are right about diversion.

Can we clarify ‘conspiracy’ a little…?

It would seem to me that a ‘secret’ operation targetted at a ‘threatening’ foreign power would not be a conspiracy - even if it contained some of the underground machinery typical to the term, but that a planned event that would go against the public will, and more importantly was targetted in someway at/or directly effected said public and hence would be reviled in both opposing politics and the host society at large if it came irrefutably to light, would qualify in my mind, as a conspiracy…?

Indeed it isn’t. You should try to get a copy of Anthony C Sutton’s ‘An Introduction to The Order’. He was a historian, Anglo-American educated, who wrote his initial series of books according to the ‘Liberal Eastern’ philosophy of history whereby people are too individualistic and self interested to ever form an effective conspiracy.

He discusses in this book the issue you’ve just raised. According to him, a body like the CFR isn’t conspiratorial, because its agendas and membership are published. But The Order (of Skull and Bones) is a conspiracy, because its meetings are secret, its membership and aims never published. There are, of course, many Bonesmen who are also members of the CFR. As such, the CFR can be an instrument of a conspiracy, an unwitting part of a conspiracy, without actually being a conspiratorial organisation.

Tens of thousands of us are trained, equipped and funded in secret. We perform terrorist attacks in Europe, and provide trained but deniable soldiers for coups across the world.

Is that a conspiracy? I’d say so. And it killed a lot more people than 9/11 ever did.

Unless you’re fighting the real enemy, you’re just treading water politically.

What have you seen ‘brought to social consciousness’ that did change something?

A group of people working in secret to do something evil/illegal/detrimental.

Essentially, I agree. The initial Gladio stay-behind network was not conspiratorial in any tenable sense. But the bombing of Bologna train station, which killed dozens and wounded several hundred, was conspiratorial.

It seems to me that damn near everything government does could be conspiratorial. Most governments are involved in two prime objectives: Establishing hegemony regionally or in as much territory as it can influence. The second is to keep it’s own citizens pacified, or at least keep them from revolt. In either case, there are multiple hidden agendas.

What troubles me with most conspiracy theories is that they bloom not because there is a “smoking gun”, but because of the lack of it. Additionally, the so-called “proofs” are typically half-baked science mixed with unsupported conjecture. All too often, anectdotal “evidence” by self-proclaimed experts is blindly accepted as gospel. Further, connections are made that have no supporting evidence. An example:

Skull and Bones is a secret organization, but there is absolutely no hard evidence to suggest that they use or ever have used CFR as any part of a conspiracy. For that matter, there is no hard evidence that bonesmen have ever participated in any conspiracy. Connecting the two as part of some conspiracy is pure conjecture. The leap begins with the known fact that S&B is a secret organization. They are automatically given the status of “conspirators”. Then any organization in which they may be involved are also suspicioned as being partners or dupes of a conspiracy. All of this without a shred of hard evidence.

That secret operations are carried out by governments and organizations doesn’t mean that they are all connected in some grand design to control the world. If they are, I’d like to see more than just bits and pieces of boondoggles that have been exposed.

Just once, show me the smoking gun on 9/11, or chemtrails, or whatever the hell is the current fad conspiracy.

Yep, that’s about the size of it. Conspiracy is as everyday as people buying milk and bread.

Hidden agendas is just secretive. For it to be conspiratorial one has to illustrate how this hidden agenda has detrimental results for significant numbers of people.

What would you accept as a smoking gun of a global conspiracy?

You’ll find this with any set of beliefs and believers. It isn’t a criticism per se of a conspiratorial philosophy of history and politics.

Firstly, I was using that as an example to answer your abstract scepticism regarding the definition of conspiracy. You can’t apply empirical criteria of judgement to analytical statements and expect to get anywhere. Try sticking to one set of standards, rather than leaping between different ones as your criticisms are pegged back.

Secondly, if you want material proof, I can give it to you. But you’ll have to explain what you’ll accept as material proof first of all.

Otherwise it is YOU who has the unquestioned dogma ‘there is no conspiracy’ which cannot be disproven, which you cannot accept might be wrong.

Now you’ve got to be kidding me. How about a Jewish banker laundering money for Hitler? Is that conspiratorial enough for you?

This is an argument from ignorance.

Not in my mind. And since it’s my post, my words you’re attacking, I’d appreciate it if you didn’t outwardly insult me by stereotyping and presuming to know my thought processes.

You haven’t asked what evidence I’ve seen. It’s your assumption, because you haven’t seen such evidence, that it doesn’t exist.

That is your dogma. And it’s your intellectual boundary. Which is hardly a sound basis for criticising beliefs you clearly don’t know that much about.

Look up Licio Gelli.

Tell you what, when you stop labelling, stereotyping and insulting and actually answer the very reasonable questions I’ve asked you about what you already know and what you’d accept as proof, then I’ll give you some information to consider. Just because there is a cult-mainstream culture of conspiracy theories that has its fads and its pseudoexperts and all the other accumulated shit doesn’t mean you can outright dismiss all such beliefs and stereotype all people who believe in such things. That makes you the reactionary, that makes you the bigot.

Now, I’m not stupid enough to walk into your rather lazily set intellectual trap of ‘show me the evidence’, because I know full well that whatever I put on the table you’ll do your best to knock down before declaring yourself unconvinced and claim you were right all along. If you want proof, you have to set up some criteria which you are willing to be bound by, you have to say what sort of information will convince you. I’ve already asked you for this, and you deliberately just ignored that. I don’t take kindly to being taken as a sucker, to being stereotyped, and all the other diversionary tactics you’ve adopted.

Put your balls on the table - what would you accept as evidence?

Siatd,

Hokay. If that is the sum of conspiracy, then anything the someone keeps as private is conspiratorial. (shrug)

And how does one decide what is detrimental? After all, we’re just doing these things for the “peoples own good.” A factory in China is spewing tons of harmful chemicals in the air. Are they part of a grand conspiracy?

So we are supposed to accept a theistic argument as having validity?

So what are you implying here? That a U.S. banker who happened to be a jew laundered money to enable Hitler to kill jews? How about the possibility that the banker was a greedy bastard who took a percentage of the money for himself and didn’t give a damn about anyone - including Hitler? Since we see money laundering by people of all nationalities and every religious background, it seems that pure greed is the more plausible explanation.

It’s true that I am ignorant, but your statement is still conjecture You provided nothing but innuendo to back your statement. If I’m ignorant, it is because you make claims with no backing.

Why do I have to ASK for evidence? It seems to me that if you wish to make claims, then it is your responsibility to back those claims with evidence. I’m in a perfect position to question such claims when they are not backed with more than “beliefs”. My intellectual boundary? I suppose I’m to just accept any statement of whatever by whomever and that is being an “intellectual”.
Tell you what, when you stop labelling, stereotyping and insulting and actually answer the very reasonable questions I’ve asked you about what you already know and what you’d accept as proof, then I’ll give you some information to consider. Just because there is a cult-mainstream culture of conspiracy theories that has its fads and its pseudoexperts and all the other accumulated shit doesn’t mean you can outright dismiss all such beliefs and stereotype all people who believe in such things. That makes you the reactionary, that makes you the bigot.

Now, I’m not stupid enough to walk into your rather lazily set intellectual trap of ‘show me the evidence’, because I know full well that whatever I put on the table you’ll do your best to knock down before declaring yourself unconvinced and claim you were right all along. If you want proof, you have to set up some criteria which you are willing to be bound by, you have to say what sort of information will convince you. I’ve already asked you for this, and you deliberately just ignored that. I don’t take kindly to being taken as a sucker, to being stereotyped, and all the other diversionary tactics you’ve adopted.

Put your balls on the table - what would you accept as evidence?

Yep, that’s about the size of it. Conspiracy is as everyday as people buying milk and bread.

Hidden agendas is just secretive. For it to be conspiratorial one has to illustrate how this hidden agenda has detrimental results for significant numbers of people.

What would you accept as a smoking gun of a global conspiracy?

You’ll find this with any set of beliefs and believers. It isn’t a criticism per se of a conspiratorial philosophy of history and politics.

Firstly, I was using that as an example to answer your abstract scepticism regarding the definition of conspiracy. You can’t apply empirical criteria of judgement to analytical statements and expect to get anywhere. Try sticking to one set of standards, rather than leaping between different ones as your criticisms are pegged back.

Secondly, if you want material proof, I can give it to you. But you’ll have to explain what you’ll accept as material proof first of all.

Otherwise it is YOU who has the unquestioned dogma ‘there is no conspiracy’ which cannot be disproven, which you cannot accept might be wrong.

Now you’ve got to be kidding me. How about a Jewish banker laundering money for Hitler? Is that conspiratorial enough for you?

This is an argument from ignorance.

Not in my mind. And since it’s my post, my words you’re attacking, I’d appreciate it if you didn’t outwardly insult me by stereotyping and presuming to know my thought processes.

You haven’t asked what evidence I’ve seen. It’s your assumption, because you haven’t seen such evidence, that it doesn’t exist.

That is your dogma. And it’s your intellectual boundary. Which is hardly a sound basis for criticising beliefs you clearly don’t know that much about.

Look up Licio Gelli.

First, I’m not dismissing the idea that there are plenty of secretive covert things going on that harm people. So what else is new? All sorts of organizations are involved in this sort of behavior.
You have no right to say that I’ll dismiss any evidence you put on the table. You don’t know me that well, so if you’re looking for a way to dismiss my skepticism, find a better argument.

Pick any kind of evidence you like for whatever conspiracy theory takes your fancy. But evidence is hard scientific proof, sworn testimony from credible witnesses (they actually had to be there), documents written by principles detailing the planning of the conspiracy… you know, the kinds of evidence that cannot be successfully challenged. Show me that all the secretive goings-on are part of a grand conspiracy to take control of the world…