Life & Death (II)

Relevant points Ecclesiastes failed to address:

Needless violence, unhealthy violence is what I speak against.

If a family gets the flu, is it healthy for the father to kill his children, his wife then himself?

Ought he rationally do it?

I’d say, likely not. It is an unhealthy application of violence. Violence has it’s place, but it isn’t the solution to all dilemma.


War and conflict have prolonged our existence, but they are not the only components that have led us to where we are, and I do not consider them the most fundamental aspect of our existence.

One must first exist, before one can engage in war or conflict. Therefore, an environment that enables one’s existence, is more fundamental than the ability of an already living being to maintain that existence via war / conflict.


Without human intervention, anyone with severe forms of cancer would die.

Based on your argument, they should. Leave them to their own devices and deny them access to the hospital.

The strong shouldn’t compensate for their weakness. Why should they spend their time healing the afflicted?

Your argument should logically be, if their own body can’t defeat cancer, then they ought be weeded out.

I don’t advocate living in harmony with cancer, and I also disagree that that cancer and ‘bad genes’ ought have the same solution.

Killing isn’t the only solution.

Is your only qualifier to good genes that which enables survival? (This is all death and failure to reproduce establishes)

If so, then you ought have no problem with anything that survives, because it has passed the test, and established that what it does, works.

You’re saying Science degrades our intelligence? Philosophy? Knowledge? Language? Renewable energy?
Books, video, audio recordings, art - degrade our intelligence?
Glasses, hearing aides, artificial limbs?
Telescopes, microscopes, satellites?
Planes, trains, automobiles?
Lights, x-rays, microwaves, fire - degrade out intelligence?
Ovens, plumbing, refrigeration?
Telecommunications?

These are things we have created or harnessed artificially.

The internet that you’re using, the computer you’re using, the power it runs out, the language you’re using, the residence you’re inhabiting, the clothes you’re wearing.

All artificial.

Your claim is, all devolution?

It all degrades our intelligence?

Complete bullshit.

These are products of our intelligence. They strengthen us. They’re all tools that can be used to our benefit. They are solutions to adversity we were once confronted by.

Unless of course, the strong pull them back into line and teach them the error of their ways, allowing them to be productive in a way that benefits the will of the strong.

The strong don’t need to obliterate anything that is different. They can guide to their own interest, if they so choose.

Also, you’re still making the assumption that genetics is to sole determiner of one’s potential. This is false. Again, genetics contributes to a result, but does not single handedly determine it. The external environment plays what I believe to be a more powerful role. We are a species that reacts to and was shaped by our external environment. The internal environment has generally just been a catch up game, trying to meet the demands of what the external environment dishes out to us. If we couldn’t meet those demands, the external environment would kill us.

Yes.

But if he hadn’t stood on their shoulders, where would he be?

To bring together the power of minds, is more effective, than leaving them in isolation.

It is wise to cooperate, even if one could survive in isolation. It is not weak to seek to cooperate, it is the best means of progress.

If one wills progress, one ought will cooperation with all that can aide that pursuit.

You argue that anyone who seeks to cooperate, is doing it out of genetic inferiority. This is wrong.

There is always a way to harness the power of others towards one’s own end. To isolate oneself from that potential, will slow down the rate of one’s progress, unless one is incapable of harnessing the power of others. In which case, that is as much a flaw in one, than the other.

It is one’s ignorance, that disables the capacity to harness the power of the other.

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Stuart

You’re still ignorant of the reason I call your statement arrogant.

You started your statement with the words ‘Others realize’. This says these others are the only ones to comprehend the existence of the possibility, and also that this possibility is a fact beyond doubt, and that if one doesn’t subscribe to the realization’s implications, then it’s only because one is ignorant of the possibility, not because one has just cause to disagree with the implications and evidence to the contrary of the implications.

Arrogance. In a nutshell.

You’re going to say statistically that it’s been certain races that have produced superior technology, then say it must be their superior genetics that enabled them to produce such technology.

I deny that genetics was the sole cause of their capacity. If one doesn’t have a supportive environment that nurtures their potential, they wont be able produce at the same standard than one of similar genetics, but of greater external environment (meaning capacity to nuture and harness one’s potential).

If one man is forced to fight daily to attain their basic needs of survival, and another man is handed their needs on a silver platter, who has more resources to further intellectual pursuits?

Clearly the latter, because their environment enabled it.

They are sent to quality schools, given the knowledge of great men before them, given positive reinforcement in regards to their potential.

How does a man of equal genetics, but living in the dirt, ostracized by society at large, left to fend for himself, produce at the standard that the man with good fortune produces?

With great difficulty.


All you’ve said following this point is founded on the initial premise which I disagree with.

Therefore, I’d only be repeating myself.

You’re getting ahead of yourself, another sign of your arrogance.

Genetics, prior memetics (which includes technology) and environment. Some humans isolated from others had need for innovation, creativity and intelligence beyond others, so they evolved those traits genetically and memetically.

It doesn’t matter whether others didn’t develop to such sophistication because they lived on a tropical island, or if they were scraping a living in a desert. Excuses aren’t necessary.

You’re just talking about discrepancies among individuals. The dynamic of genetics, memetics and environment among various peoples takes place over thousands of years.

Stuart,

You claim to be interested in truth, yet you haven’t specifically stated the criteria under which you discern evolution, from devolution.

Devolution = Degenerate - Having fallen to an inferior or undesirable state

Therefore, to say something has devolved, is to imply a desired state, a set of criteria under which one judges.
This isn’t neutral.

Fittingly, let me quote the Wikipedia page of devolution which enforces my points in regards to evolution - that we’re not devolving.

I’m talking about nations at war. Nations that are 3rd world. Nations that have poor education systems. Nations with a culture that heavily discriminates against empowerment of people. Environments where there is so much chaos and damage, that even those not directly affected, are always indirectly affected by the violence, suppression, scarcity etc.

Or cultures where they live a far more humble life. Where academic pursuits and the like weren’t their interests. Their interests were of living off the land and spending time with the community.

No, I’m talking about discrepancies among nations, among how different races are treated, among different cultures, among different classes, the affects of war, discrimination, deprivation.

This is present day. Things that are affecting large groups of people today. That all the people in these environments, get screwed over by it.

The environment doesn’t take a 1000 years to screw up a nation. It can happen in a day. Drop some bombs on them, and see how well they thrive.

Start a war against an ethnic group within a nation, and see how well that ethnic group thrives.

I believe the primary discriminating factor between the results of two individuals, or two races, is the environment they inhabit now, and their past environment.

Therefore, I say, to improve the health of their environment, will be a step towards enabling the realization of the potential of said individual, or race.


Let me explain to you the motivation behind your words. I’m confident you’ve been infected, likely by Satyr, towards a position that’s implications are disgusting.

You focus on genes, you say that genes are primary source of results. Therefore, you say, we’re in this position of privilege because we’re genetically superior, and them, genetically inferior.

You thus say, it is fine for us to live at their expense. This is the ‘natural’ way. It is right for us to destroy them, they deserve to die. We have no reason to change our ways. Everything we do is good and just.

They can starve by the millions, they can be enslaved, they can be suppressed, they can be attacked with any weapon we so choose - They are inferior and only hold us back.

We are fit, they are unfit. Let us prosper, let them die out.


Truly disgusting. KTS in a nutshell.

You set the criteria which I agreed with to a certain extent; technology. When including everyone within the human species, the average person thousands of years ago was very likely more adept at technological innovation that today. Why is that so; one reason among others (and I focus on this because it can be proven by the simple statistics I’m still waiting on from you) is because those subgroups or races that were generally more adapt have not been reproducing at the relative pace of the other groups.

While one could make very valid arguments against those statements, its not necessary, because they are after the fact. That certain subgroups were developing high technology, hundreds and thousands of years ago - well before they were exploiting the technologically-inept subgroups in the manner you speak of - is all that is needed to be said.

And maybe you’re also referring to apes, who live humble, austere, community oriented lives. We don’t call the apes stupid or lazy, because we know they hadn’t needed to evolve beyond their state, or those that did did so long ago producing races of humans of different degrees of quality.

The less intellectual of those groups had there time, left unhindered by superior groups, for thousands of years in their native environments, and didn’t produce anything.

And yet you focus almost entirely on the present. And, uncalled-for excuses aside, they lose in both regards.

Ok, lets say we were to take the several thousand members of the most unevolved race of people, of all ages from, except these individuals all happened to have been very well educated in Western schools, some of them just finishing their education, others in middle of their career and a few towards the end. Then we give them an ideal environment, whatever they wanted, the size of a small country and leave them alone with many large libraries, and materials, but no access outside their environment for help. Then give them 50 years, and see what type of society they create, and how they advance the sciences and arts. If you were to see they reverted to living in huts, would you finally be willing to rethink your stance?

Don’t take me for my words months ago, genetic superiority is not conclusive in either of us. And genetic superiority is not a privilege, its simply one state among others. If you mean actual sociological issues of privilege it seems clear that neither of us rank high as first worlders, but of course may be considered privileged in comparison to third worlders.

If it’s fine to live then it’s fine to live at someone’s expense. If you’d like I will spell out a program for how you can stop living at the expense of others, I know how to go about it because I tried, I want you to try it or stop being a hypocrite.

Yes, I look back towards nature and am extremely skeptical of anyone’s claims to overcome it, yet you tell me I was getting ahead of myself!!

First you must define who is ‘us’ and who is ‘them’, but whatever the case the issue of merit or lack thereof isn’t likely to cross the minds of anyone of any intelligence in a conflict between opposing peoples.

My basis when there’s an nearly insurmountably complex situation of how to deal with 7 billion people in a small space is to shrink my horizon of care, by trying to find what it is that I may best care about, a project that in itself may take my entire life. Then should I find something to work towards, to do so patiently, You seem to think you have a grasp on the ‘problems’ of the human species - yet you have no solution, you don’t have anything to offer in this regard.

Frightening eh?
Your simple, needy mind cannot see how much of what you have listed is used to harvest wealth from humans, for the profit of others.
Genius created much of it, but in pursuit of its own agenda.
A great mind might write a book or engineer an object, but simply reading or using it does not transfer that genius to you.
You have the internet because the companies that provide it reap vast profits from your use of it, not because it is enabling our further evolution. No profit, no internet.
Hospitals exist to keep the work force healthy or an army on its feet. Care must be paid for, that’s the bottom line.

Now any moron has a memory and knowledge at his fingertips that he couldn’t hope to have in real life.
Does that increase his intelligence or make him less of a moron? No. He gives himself away when he comes online and tries to frame his own thoughts, creating a retarded mess trying to escape the consequences of his own nature.

He would still be a genius and would have flourished regardless of who went before him, even if he was the first.

In other words, you’re just spewing out words like devolution, that have no respect in the scientific community, illustrating your ignorance, and then when questioned about it, you’ll ignore the points raised.

Let me clue you in, bro.

Necessity is the mother of invention. Not superior genetics.

Therefore, to exclude environment from consideration when investigating the production of technology, and rather focusing on genes, is fundamentally flawed.

Of course.

You don’t need to justify your positions.

You’re talking about 1000s of years ago, I’m talking about their lifetimes.

I don’t need to stretch for evidence to validate my position because it’s around us.

You need to reach back and appeal to environments that no longer exist to justify your actions in the present. Tragic.

Wow.

You’re digging yourself a hole. I just need to stand here.

I don’t read your posts - unless they’re in a thread of mine, or if you’re responding to me.

My insights are based on what you’re saying now, not on posts you made months ago. I wouldn’t bother to remember something like that.

The fact that you think I’m responding to something you wrote months ago, validates the truth of my observation. You have internalized these thoughts without understanding their implications. And recognize the internalization that you’ve recently on a consious level tried to distance yourself from.

You’ll deny them openly, but you’re a pawn to the result.

I knew you thought as much.

Yes,

You’re ignorant of how to solve problems, so you’ll just spew out your ignorance.

But I do.

Right there in my signature. Been there for years.



Ecclesiastes

You’re asking if your denial is frightening? Or your paranoia?

Nope. Not really. I find it cumbersome to listen to you. You’re typical of the sponge that has soaked up the fear dished out to the masses.

He’d write his thoughts on rocks. He’d articulate them through pictures. He’d build a telescope with sticks.

Of course - he wasn’t helped by anyone.

===

This thread is about life and death, and you guys are preaching about race superiority. I’m not interested in having my thread derailed by racists any longer. Make your own threads to spew out your shit.

It was my mistake for engaging in it, the outcome was inevitable.

Shoo now.

No boy, fear is you trying to recast nature as essentially loving and supportive.

Did Aristotle discover relativity or da Vinci design a nuclear power station?
Every man is a product of his time, no escaping it. But it is that part of him which can stand apart from the world, seeing connections that others cannot, which marks him as a genius.

You must secretly fear such minds.