My main point about my original post is the kind of logic and reason a thiest, Christian, Jewish believer etc. can not provide the proof God exisits that a non-theist will accept. Anything short of a miracle (and that may not convince some) showing a tangible example of God’s existence won’t work. With all of the churchs and believers in the United States, some atheists think those people have lost their minds, placing their ‘faith’ in an invisible deity (from their point of view).
As far as I know there is no way using words or even deeds in any fashion, will convince an atheist otherwise. There may be the occasional atheist who would not place theirselves in a subservient position anyway even If God’s presence was made known. If there is someone who can give valid statements for the existence of God, I would most certainly like to hear it so that I may use them to disseminate the proof of God.
If the non-believer has not been brought to the point of receptivity (God does that), no proof will convince them.
But, you can find proofs in Geisler and Feinberg’s “Introduction to Philosophy – A Christian Perspective”. I also supplied my own proof in “How does nature know?”
And you can give the reason for the hope that is in you – most appropriately given when others ask you why you’re different (because they notice it), or when you can see they are lacking hope. Can’t remember the address of that verse, but it’s in there.
Would these two instances you cite get non-believers to the point receptivity? If it is, this would be the dissemnation needed to get atheists to understand God.
I already know where you would have to go to further this notion that Logic does not explain God, so I cut to the chase and asked you to come up with anything I can’t logically explain about God. Basically I am accepting the entire burden of reasonable proof and now you cry like a baby, WTF?
Evidently you really don’t want to discuss any possibilities or observed evidence by others that their may be a Logical God, so basically your just here to preach like the bible thumpers, how ironically funny for you.
BTW, I wont use a single written passage of any bible to support my assertion that God is a logical God and operates logically. If you were so sure of your ideas I would think you would be all over this and ready to show me a fool in just a question/example or two.
Most will misunderstand someone they don’t know when their being a smartass.
If you can stop being a jackass for a moment I might find it worthwhile to discuss what I see as evidence, but it hardly seems prudent at this juncture knowing you attitude towards civil serious discussion.
To start with see my other post at the top subject “read em and weepâ€, I don’t like repeating myself to someone who is most likely wasting everyone’s time.
Simple observed evidence that something does not come from nothing. Everything we can prove has a source and non-intelligence has never been proven to give birth to intelligence. The intelligence had to come from somewhere just like the template for mutation and survival and connectivity we observe in nature, it is not mathematically probable for all of this sentient interaction to be of chaos.
There are observed natural laws that govern all things (gravity ,electromagnetism, heat vibration ect…) and this is universally understood as purposeful and advantageous to the vast majority and these laws have intelligent structure according to logical evidence.
Be careful of arguing the idea of no purpose, it’s a trap!
Those instances are used by God to get non-believers to that point, yes. Sometimes people already know all that stuff but have unrelated doubts that God can use us to answer. God also can and has used (and will use) other means we do not have at our disposal if He does not allow it, like prophetic visions and genuine miracles. He knows when it is necessary to use those means, and He answers prayer.
Maybe we should be thankful God doesn’t give us a kick in the pants like what happened to Paul aka Saul. It’s hard to leave these comforts we have been so long use to having. The thought of persecution and villification isn’t pleasant to most people’s minds.
I am thankful He kicked my butt up and down the block, and back up again… I didn’t know living until then. Persecution and villification is nothing compared to the greatness and glory of God.
But I never want to go through that… ever again. I never want anyone to go through it. But if people are anything like I was… they’re going to get their butts whooped. And if they’re anything like I was… they’ll thank Him. I pray they thank Him.
First and foremost, I pray they don’t have to go through that. I pray they just let Him in, skip the horribleness, and go straight to the overwhelming awesomeness part. I pray that more than anything.
I felt the same way before I knew Him… that He is very judgmental in certain parts of the Bible. That was also before I ever read the Bible cover to cover. When I was an atheist, I don’t recall ever trying to conceive of the “good guy” you mention – I was always just stuck thinking of my misconceptions (the ones that led to my loss of faith). I don’t know why.
Why would you rather that “good guy” not exist at all? Or is it the “douche bag” you would rather not exist?
You didn’t answer my question, and I won’t ask again.
Yes. They are proposing a something [God] exists.
If I propose that there is a microscopic glass teapot orbiting around our galaxy, the burden of proof is on me for proposing it.
The burden of proof is not on those who do not believe or are skeptical of my teapot.
It is not as if, by default, because you cannot prove my teapot exists, we can assume it DOES!
“You cannot prove my teapot’s non-existence!”
Do you see what is wrong with the above?
[As if non-existence is a state in which my already assumed to exist teapot can exist in.]
Particles are incapable of intelligence without a program or timplate to begin with, that was my point, somehow it went over your head. A program or template has purpose by its very nature and this denotes intelligence.
Sentient connectivity and purposeful interaction for a common goal has never been observed in chaos, in fact you cannot even prove chaos, it’s a fallacious idea to begin with. If there is Purpose then there is no Chaos. Care to logically argue the existence of Purpose?
DO some more critical thinking and observation and get back to me.
Of course not. Without absolute proof though it is in my experience that no assertion will take a foot hold on this subject, with regads to non-theists. I’m sure your aware of the care that I took to say “if” god exists. I did this to show that this is directed at theists only. Or atheists that can think from a theistic position at least.
The Old Testiment of the Bible proves just how repulsive God would be. The famous christian saying,“God loves you” is a joke. According to all his actions in the Bible, he hates us.
Mhm. Try and prove that there isn’t an invisible pink unicorn that flys in the sky at night. Obviously, it is up to me to substantiate my claim with proof.
So…theists. Prove that there isn’t an invisible pink unicorn. And if you can’t, then GUESS WHAT? It exists.
Purpose is what you do when you post a reply and browse these forums, do you think we humans created Purpose?
Purpose is and action with a goal. Life and mutations or evolution for survival of the fittest is a goal and that goal is to survive. How and why would these self replicating single cell life forms do this without this purpose?
You really have thought any of your argument through have you?
Its very weak and incomplete and lacking continuity? Is contradiction all you have? Remember if you assert something as true you need to back it up with some support and logic, I’m not going to do all the work here.
Your shitty little attitude is hardly worth it, especially if you want to play the chicken shit game of calling someone on their mistakes so they don’t have to respond when their stumped. This is like an insurance company that keeps denying claims until the other party gets tired and gives up, letting them win by default.
BTW, it’s statements, not statments, genius!
Get your shit straight before you play the game of correction.