Secularism is a failure.
It’s about money and nonsense.
God is the highest goal / reality.
We should seek that first.
And I’m sorry that, from my own frame of mind, you don’t have either the spiritual or the philosophical inclination – integrity? – to explore this…
…with me in regard to both of our religious assessments “here and now”.
That would seem likely to produce the far more fascinating exchange.
Only back on this thread instead: ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop … 5&t=186929
We’ll need a context of course. Lots of them in fact.
And if a God, the God, your God is our highest goal, we’'ll need to examine that God in the context of, say, theodicy.
Starting with, for example, the God given coronavirus.
As far as I can tell, right now, The God, is living in a higher dimension, and is not all-mighty.
Sometimes it takes God a long time to do something.
If God was fast, nature wouldn’t be so old. Planets, stars and moons, are ancient.
The idea of God being the maximum amount of things, is a christian word game.
It’s our job to treat the corona virus and overcome it.
God has his own things that he does.
Our lives matter and sometimes God needs us to do what is right.
He needs the support of his family, which is us and most life forms.
I may be wrong about any of these things,
but i want to be able to posit god stuff regardless of my imperfection.
Dan,
Life is about the impossible task of having everyone be your friend. Can god do that? Maybe not. But all of us can strive for it, and that would make us godly.
If everyone got along, the system before that would collapse, because it built momentum in its confliction.
But soon a new system would arise.
Support instead of exploitation.
Speaking of ultimate goals, there could be many revealed after one reaches high enough for one of them.
The ultimate is part of a continuum.
What makes you believe that? Perhaps on a different thread.
Dan,
You can learn anything, anything, anything about setting an impossible task for yourself.
Most people who “reach for the stars” haven’t even begun to set an impossible task for themselves.
Having set many impossible tasks for myself; I know this for a fact… they all lead to the same road:
We all live our desired experiences at nobodies expense.
How do you sometimes teach this without laying into people sometimes? I don’t think it’s possible. I use words Dan, words hurt more than violence. It hurts a lot, but it’s just soft power.
Dan,
I suggest that we take this here: ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop … 5&t=186929
I’ll copy and paste your points above to that thread. And respond sometime tomorrow or the next day.
And I apologize to zinnat for not recommending the same above. This thread is and should remain about meditation.
[quote=“iambiguous”
Dan,
I suggest that we take this here: [ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop … 5&t=186929]
(on discussing god and religion - Religion and Spirituality - I Love Philosophy)
I’ll copy and paste your points above to that thread. And respond sometime tomorrow or the next day.
And I apologize to zinnat for not recommending the same above. This thread is and should remain about meditation.
[/quote]
If the posters have forgotten, Let me remind what i said in the starting of this thread–
It is not my intention to promote anything but to provide answers to only those who are already interested in the subject. I think that i am capable of doing that because of my long association and thus earned reasonable success with the subject. That is all.
Secondly, the concept/faith of the God is not required in the meditation, at least in the initial phase. That need arises quite later And only if one is able to reach that stage. Meditation is purely a mental/neurological exercise. Having said that it would certainly lead to some kind of faith, in one continues log enough. But, unlike hardcore religious theorists, i would advice to refrain practitioners from taking faith as a cornerstone. Let it manifest automatically because of the experiences, that would be a better way.
Let me share my personal experience to make it clearer. I started meditating in my late twenties and before that i was almost an atheistic. I was of the firm opinion that all this talk about God in all religions is useless. All these theories are manufactured by our ancestors to create fear of punishment in the societies to maintain social order, nothing else whatsoever.
I basically belong to a upper middle class family( of course by Indian standards) so i enjoyed a good childhood. After doing my masters in economics At the age of 22, i got involved in family business with my elder brother and father and got married at 24. Within four years i became a father of two children. Everything was going fine till then. But, after that because of some wrong business decisions, we suffered a very big loss and lost everything we had.
Then, i started to struggle in those unfamiliar circumstances and explored everything new that came across. We were facing quite a lot of litigation at that time because of all creditors sued us. During that time i met two Muslim persons who reintroduced me to worship. One of those was some kind of preacher/guru and he advised to meditate on some mantras of Godess Durga. I started it thinking that it would end my struggle. I was doing nothing at that time but only preparing and attending court cases so i had a quite of spare time so slowly i got fully involved.
This stage went for almost three years. And, those three years, I did nothing but attending courts 5-6 times in a month and meditation. i literally did it 24/7 and because of that i crossed both of those trigger points i mentioned above in this thread within those three years but nothing changed in my circumstances. Then i realized that i cannot lead my life in this way forever. After that, i sold my family house and settled our dues as a one time settlement. After getting rid from courts, I became a working partner in a construction firm and left my city. I worked with that person for twenty years. In the meantime, both of my children became IT engineers an got employed, so i left the job and came back to my home to live my alone wife. That happened about 6-7 years ago.
But, the habit of meditation which i developed during those 3 initial years, never left me. Now, i cannot sleep without meditation or i do it everyday when i go to sleep. This is an unbroken routine since last thirty years. The purpose of telling my telling my story is enable others can understand how faith develops in due course though not necessary initially. But now, it is unshakeable an irrefutable too.
Second point which i want to raise here is meditation is areligious, though not unreligious because it would lead to some king of faith sooner or later but no particular religion has copyright on meditation, It is found in all religions in one form or other. What i mean to say that there is no such thing called Indian meditation, as many put it forth. I live in India and a Hindu both by birth and religion. A Muslim introduced me into meditation, though by Hindu mantras but i use both of Hindu and Muslim mantras for meditation an they yield the same result.
As i mentioned already in this thread that the only thing require in the meditation is concentration. That concentration may manifest for many different reasons. In my case, deep desire to get rid of my struggle caused it. Something other may work of some other person, like loosing someone very dear or having very deep curiosity to know the unknown. All we have to do it is to channel that deep emotion into meditation. Say, if one loves someone very deeply so it would be better to him/her to remember to that person just before repeating and concentrating on mantras. That would help a lot.
So technically speaking, it is irrelevant whether you concentrate on particular mantras, Buddha, Nietzsche or even Ashley Graham, The result is going to be the same.
I would go back again to the methodology of the meditation in the next post, unless posters have any question or clarification.
with love.
sanjay
Wait, did that just happen? A thread didn’t get hijacked?
I’m so proud of you guys. 
Me too.
With love,
Sanjay
Let us resume.
Before going for the practical part, i think that some more clarification about the bio-neurological mechanism of the humans is needed here in order to manifest clear understanding.
As i have mentioned before in the thread,Meditation is a type/ part of dying so that begs a question, how exactly we become alive! After understanding that process, we have to reverse-engineer it. The mind, amalgamated with consciousness enters in the body from the top of the head into our physical brain, makes a permanent base there, then continues to go down and ultimately spreads to all parts of the body. But, its main control always remains at the brain. That is how we become alive. Now, in meditation we have reverse this very process. Means, somehow we have to withdraw consciousness from the lower parts of the body and make it moves towards the brain again. But, as per our basic premise, consciousness is not a doing entity so it cannot do that alone but with the help of the mind only.
One very important thing to understand her is consciousness does not need to be enlightened because being enteral and unchangeable, it is always enlightened. We have to enable our mind to competent enough to witness or realize that. So, it is not consciousness that lead to enlightened but mind only. That is precisely why it is called a necessary evil in almost all major religions. Eating of fruit of knowledge by adam and eve at Eden in Christianity and the concept of Yetzer Hara in judaism are clear examples of this. Most theologians get it wrong. The desire of eating the apple of knowledge was not caused by any evil or satanic force. God always wanted and knew that adam and eve would eat the apple. It was not disobedience but merely going through the process of overcoming the process of desiring. And, Satan supervises that process. He was not a outcast but placed there to watch and help humans to go through the process because he was the only angel who showed that he can handle free will Judicially while all others merely blindly followed what god asked hem to do. It was a test conducted by the god to discern the worthy angel to govern the human realm. And, only satan passed that test. So, now he puts all of us on that very test. But, besides that he also help us to get ready for the test too. So. we have to beat satan to be one with the god or in other words, we have to reach that stage when we can control the manifestation of the will. Again, it is not about whether we will this or that but whether we can control will from manifesting in the first place or not. That is detachment.
Nietzsche was a very intelligent person but because of being unaware of basic premises, as generally happens in the cases of pure intellectual philosophers, he was also unable to understand what is happening. It was never about Will to power as he put it but only power to will. And. that slight change changes the whole meaning. He took initial will for granted in his premise and assumes that there must be will present always but it is not. We also have power to control the will manifestation, then the question of will to power never arise. Religions deuced it more deeply and accurately.
Now, i think that we are ready for the practical part.
with love,
sanjay
Sorry guys, kind of busy of late. Try to post tomorrow.
With love,
Sanjay
Now we can talk about the practical part.
As i mentioned before in this thread many times that one can choose the posture and mantra for repetition as per one’s choice or belief. That is not going to make any difference. So, let us assume that one has taken the posture as one likes and started repeating any particular mantra.
Now, there are many ways of repeating the mantra. We can divide those into three categories. One by tongue, one by throat, one purely by mind. As per my experience and understanding, a meditator goes through these stages one by one. It always start from using the tongue, then by throat an lastly by mind only. Having said that, one one can do that purely by mind from the starting, it is good and worth trying. If it does not work, revert back to tongue methodology. But make sure that the movement of the tongue should be so subtle that it would not be able manifest any audible sound. The basic idea is to hear from the mind only, not by ears.
So, let us assume that one has started repeating the mantra continuously slowly. His/her tongue will move slowly. Let it be. That is not important here and no need to force the issue either. The more important issue here to keep the focus of the mind on the sound of the repetition. Means, one has to hear the voice of the repetition in his mind. That is all, do nothing else but just keep doing it.
Now, let me go into what one is going to feel if one does it In order to keep readers on right path. If one is able to keep concentration, the most provable is that one would feel the words of mantra popping in his/her mind also. That is natural and nothing to worry. The reason is that though in practical world, we use different senses/organs for seeing and hearing, but for thinking we use only one organ which is mind. So, deep down there, a the level of the mind, we cannot hear without seeing and vice-verse. Anyone who tries this will realize what i am saying. When you repeat the mantra slowly, the pictures of those wordings will appear in your mind by default. You will not able to stop it even if you want.
So, now we have two things before us to concentrate upon, the sound of the repetition and the pictures of those wordings. From my experience, i can say with some certainty that we cannot focus on both things at once so we have to choose. Although one can choose either but my suggestion would be to keep focus on the sound of repetition instead of the pictures because that is easier and we can maintain our concentration longer also in that way.
Now, assuming that is trying that, let me get into how one feels during that time, what difficulties may come and how to overcome those.
Given all that, one may think that it is all simple and can be done easily but actually it is just opposite. It is quite difficult but still doable. The difficulty is because of the default nature of the mind. It does not like to be tamed down but want to wander freely always. We generally get so busy always so fail to realize its this phenomenon.
To understand this, let us do a thought experiment. Anyone can do it himself /herself also. Sit totally alone in a room with only a pen and paper and start writing on that paper honestly whatever comes in you mind. Do it for 15 mins and show any other person the paper without telling him/her that you wrote it… The other person would immediately say that the writer of this paper is insane and should be treated medically. This is true for us all. if one does not believe me, he/she can test it but do it honestly. Do not try to manufacture the content of the paper thinking that you have it show it to any other person.
There is nothing extraordinary in this because this is what we are. To be honest, we all are insane inside but we somehow keep a lid to that insanity so it does not come out normally but only in extraordinary circumstances like in extreme emotional stages or under the influence of the drugs etc. It comes out only because all this reside in us always in the first place and as soon as we lose the grip slightly for whatever reasons, it gets released.
To be continued-
with love,
sanjay
Let us talk a bit about more what difficulties one may face during this initial phase of meditation.
First of all, i have to remind readers again that they have to be in a pose whatever they feel most comfortable and start repeating mantra they want to choose. Then, they have to keep focus on the sound of that repetition. Two conditions are very important here and should be maintained. First, after taking their desired pose, no body part should not move at all, not even the tip of the fingers. And second, the eyes should remain closed as long as they are meditating. Violation of either of these conditions will nullify their effort. Here, it is a quite natural question to come in one’s mind why are these conditions so important in the first place!
The reason for not moving the body is required because our consciousness is spread throughout the whole body with the help of the mind. And, in order to achieve anything meaningful through meditation, we have to withdraw all of out mind and consciousness from the whole body back to the mind. But, if we keep moving parts of out body, both of mind and consciousness will keep focussing on those moving parts and never able to concentrate fully back to the mind. The same is with the eyes. The eyes are default centres for the mind so as long they are open, the mind has no choice but to focus on what is seen by the eyes. So, we have to shut down that outlet of distraction too.
A very important tip which i have forgotten to mention, may help in a very big way. When you choose a mantra and start repeating it, try to synchronize it with your breath. Means, adjust the wordings or time taken in repeating the mantra in such a away by using some pause here and there so that you can repeat the mantra one time exactly in one cycle of your breath. This can help a lot. the reason for this is that if we sync the times of manta and one breath and keep doing it sufficient time, sooner or later the stage will come when repeating the mantra in the mind will become a default process when ever you sit alone.
If anyone owns any pets, especially dogs, will understand what i am suggesting. How we train dogs, like let them understand/remember their name! The easiest way to do this is to give them something to eat with calling their chosen name. And, after some time, the dog starts responding to their names even without giving them food. What happens is that as both actions of receiving food and hearing the name happens simultaneously, their mind makes some sort of connection between those and starts responding in the same way even at the absence on one. Another common such example is of smokers smoking cigarette while going to toilet. Apparently, there is no medical reasoning for nicotine in having bowel movements, but as most smokers use to smoke at toilets, so their mind and body make some sort of connection between smoking and having bowel movements. And, most smokers cannot have bowel movements without smoking. I myself is an example of that. There are many other such examples too.
So, we can use this phenomenon to help in our meditation. If we can somehow breathe and repeat the mantras in complete sync for long enough, the stage will come when only focus on breathing will manifest the repetition of mantras automatically. This may look impossible to some but it is true. I know it from my personal experience. As i am doing it since last 30 years, so now even closing the eyes is enough for me. As soon as i close my eyes, the repetition of the mantra start in my mind. The focus on the breath has also been bypassed now. Now, i do not even need to lie down straight. Whether i am in the bed, in the train, in the car or anywhere else, as soon as i close my eyes, the repetition automatically starts without much effort from me. My mind knows that he has to do this now.
There are some more points which i will cover in the next post.
with love,
sanjay