men and woman

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
1

men or woman

  • men are mentally stronger than woman
  • woman are mentally stronger than men
  • to each his own
  • there is no real difference between both…
0 voters

are men’s brains more fit for science and politics?
are woman mentally weaker or stronger than men

let’s heat it up :slight_smile:
this debate started after a, let’s say, rather uncarefull :wink: sentence of hadj in another thread, misconceptions of islam, in religion

ilovephilosophy.com/phpbb/vi … p?t=140623

so, what’s your take?

willem

last posts of hadj and molelove;

Hadj wrote:

molelove;

2

Before we get too far in discussion, i think its important to distinguish between equality and sameness. Equal is when two things are the same value, for example $50 is the same value as 50 chocolate bars. Sameness is when two things are identical in all ways, not just equal. So, for the rest of this discussion, i think it is important to consider whether you are talking about equality between men and women or sameness between men and women

3

First of all I deeply regret I made that comment and I shouldn’t have said it in the first place. I apologize for it because it doesn’t resembles Islam in anyway. Hopefully you will forgive me.

I’ve searched troughout the internet for information about this subject. Although you’re right about some intellectuals (especially women) are refuting the idea that women are less capable than men. Most of them are trying to blame culture for it like some women (feminism) in the 70s tried to be physically and mentally equal to men just because they believed that cultural differences were to blame. We can endlessly discuss about how strong is this culture influence on women but we should rather seeking to answer the following question:

  1. What do scientists say about the (mental) differences between women and men
  2. Are they nature or nurture?
  3. What is the (contemporary) consensus of medical and biological scientists.

When answers these three questions we will come to the conclusion that female have a significant mental difference when comparing to men. For example Doreen Kimura MD said in her article (Sex Differences in the Brain, May 13, 2002):
“Men and women differ not only in their physical attributes and reproductive function but also in many other characteristics, including the way they solve intellectual problems. For the past few decades, it has been ideologically fashionable to insist that these behavioral differences are minimal and are the consequence of variations in experience during development before and after adolescence. Evidence accumulated more recently, however, suggests that the effects of sex hormones on brain organization occur so early in life that from the start the environment is acting on differently wired brains in boys and girls.”

She adds:
"What of differences in intellectual function between men and women? Major sex differences in function seem to lie in patterns of ability rather than in overall level of intelligence (measured as IQ), although some researchers, such as Richard Lynn of the University of Ulster in Northern Ireland, have argued that there exists a small IQ difference favoring human males. Differences in intellectual pattern refer to the fact that people have different intellectual strengths. For example, some people are especially good at using words, whereas others are better at dealing with external stimuli, such as identifying an object in a different orientation. Two individuals may have differing cognitive abilities within the same level of general intelligence.

Sex differences in problem solving have been systematically studied in adults in laboratory situations. On average, men perform better than women at certain spatial tasks. In particular, men seem to have an advantage in tests that require the subject to imagine rotating an object or manipulating it in some other way. They also outperform women in mathematical reasoning tests and in navigating their way through a route. Further, men exhibit more accuracy in tests of target-directed motor skills–that is, in guiding or intercepting projectiles. "

“To understand human behavior–how men and women differ from one another, for instance–we must look beyond the demands of modern life. Our brains are essentially like those of our ancestors of 50,000 and more years ago, and we can gain some insight into sex differences by studying the differing roles men and women have played in evolutionary history. Men were responsible for hunting and scavenging, defending the group against predators and enemies, and shaping and using weapons. Women gathered food near the home base, tended the home, prepared food and clothing, and cared for small children. Such specialization would put different selection pressures on men and women.”

She clearly refutes any saying there are only small differences and that if there are differences we should blame culture.

P.S. Polticians work in the field of social issues but act like chessplayers

4

Sounds like, from that description, that Feminists will have to reunite with their old Fundamentalist chums from the great Porn debates and try to refute the Theory of Evolution. Either that or just knuckle down and admit that form follows function, that there are certain innate differences between the sexes as in regards to thinking and raise high that old argument of Plato’s…
that being that justice is equality of opportunity

5

to understand what testosteron does to a man, you may try and remember what you were like at 15, or observe the behaviour of the average 15-year-old
that’s an age where boys have a testosteron peak, there’s one at 5-6-7 as well i thought, but i’m not sure of the exact timing…

willem

6

I’ve seen men that acted like complete girls and women who are as cool, collected, and confident as the male archetype. I don’t think everything is impossible… that women cannot be just as good as men.

HOWEVER!!! Women are different than men, and by virtue of being different, not just in a socilocal role, but in a physiological one as well, women will never be “the same” or “equal” to men.

I think it’s interesting how feminism corresponded with the shift in female relations in the courting process due to the introduction of birth control. I think this says more about how physiological differences play a major role in male/female differences.

Even though I’ve seen men who acted like complete girls, I would still be more inclined to make them partner of a law firm if for nothing else but the fact that they will not up and leave for 9 months at a time and have kids.

Sorry ladies, you may think this is cruel and heartless, but if I were running a business, I expect you to work for me. Having kids is your personal choice, and I’d respect that, but I would demote you in a heartbeat if you decided to do it and take a shitload of time off.

Annndd, it is for this reason that I think we still see “unfair and unbalanced” numbers in our society… such as the number of race car drivers who are women and the amount of money women get paid. It has more to do with biology than sociology or neuropsychology.

Sociologically, though, I’m more inclined to state that we have become a more matriarchial society. That’s an entirely different argument, though.

7

A proffessor of mine just told me of a study that came out that tested the reaction of male and female infants to some object. It was some red toy or what not that was placed above the girls nursery and the boys nursery. Interestingly enough the girls would laugh at the object and gently touch it while on the other hand the boys went on to hit the object, tried to grab it and some got angry and began shoving each other. And we are talking about infants here.

8

But what’s your conclusion? Now we are all going to interpret it differently. Please elaborate.

9

From the example that I offered I would conclude that there are innate distinctions between males and females.

10

ya know, it could be argued, that if Human Beings really are social animals… women might be superior to men.

For example… say that their is some crisis in your life, and you really need to just spend some time with a empathetic friend… who would usually qualify for that? A man, or a woman?

Lets not dismiss the accomplishments of many men who might not have believed themselves capable were it not that they had a woman who saw their potential and pushed them to it.

Saying out of hand that women must think and act like men to be equal to us might be true, but maybe thats because our society ignores the gifts that women offer that are just as important to success.

And this, in conjunction with intelligence that is equal to men… who are we to assume that Men are necessarily superior?

11

I’ve already said this in the previous topic called: Islam: Misconceoptions. You can find it under Religion. First you have to refute my reply before you start making assumptions. I’ve clearly said the differences are hardwired and not cultural (although there some cultural influences)

12

I think that personal differances far outweigh these gender trends.

Look at the visual spacial skills of a few dyslexic women and I think you’ll see what I mean.

Not to mention training. Someone who trains their mind especially at a young age will be much better at something. Anyone who is a muscian before the age 10 will total kill someone who was not in most if not all tasks even tangentially related to math.

I think it may overall be one of these things like shaved legs. Sure au natural women will have slightly less leg hair then men, but we have to exagerate this trough shaveing. So yeah, maybe most men can find the sqaure root of 121 a bit faster than women, but only if they studied.

13

I have to refute your reply on another thread before I can make assumptions on this thread? Would you rather I jump through some hoops too?

And about assumptions, you seem to assume that I was speaking to you, because you say i have to refute you to reply to you etc…
But I do believe that I was speaking in general, on a matter concerning perception. You are more than free to perceive the world however you like, permit me the same courtesy.
I will go and check out your other replies on another thread on another forum in a moment… until then, my assumptions are my own, and I do not need your permission to have them.

Thank you.

14

I read the thread ( and honestly perhaps I should have before replying on this one… I could have shot myself in the foot.) Heh

Let me come out and say what my thinking is when it concerns male success. Be that in any realm, so long as it involves either some form of competition, or systems where acclaim, attention, financial rewards etc is a result of success.

I do not believe it entirely unreasonable to think that for many men who wish to gain a notable level of success in their particular endeavors… one of the underlying factors in that male’s mind whether conscious or unconscious is the hope (a) female(s) will take notice of that success and respond.

I am sure that sounds more sexist than what I intended, but at the moment I cannot phrase it any better then that.

So, to ignore a woman’s intellectual gifts, or what might result from the typical female’s more empathetic nature, Much… quite a large Much of what Males achieve in even male dominated roles, is a result of that male’s desire to earn recognition from females. And that, in my thinking, make women superior to men.

So it is not a question of what women must do to prove themselves equal to men, it is a question of what men do to prove themselves worthy of the attention of women.

And I do truly believe that many men feel threatened when women encroach upon male dominated fields not necessarily because men know themselves to be superior, or if the men do feel superior it is because they think they have earned that in releation to where they think women should be compared to them.

What men are really threatened by when women encroach upon typically male dominated areas is that some are afraid women will realize that we aren’t so specially gifted after all. And I am sure that, on some level, some men despair of this because now they must work even harder to be worthy of any sort of notice.

here, in America, I have noticed a trend in the last few decades in which it is men who talk about a woman’s wealth, her success, her status. In the construction trade it was not uncommon to hear many a burly blue collar guy wish he could meet a rich, successful woman. And having heard that with my own ears, I do truly believe that it is not just blue collar construction workers who feel that way now.

I hope I have clarified my position.
Thank you.

15

For some reason I feel like those burly blue-collar guys would want a rich, successful woman who would have dinner on the table for them when they got home from work (as opposed to staying late at the office and becoming more successful)

My father has always said that a man derives most of his pride from his work (mind you he lived through the depression and saw the despondence of many men unable to provide for their families). Maybe this is just culturally conditioned in us, but issues of pride tend to be very sticky. If I am raised to derive all my pride from my job, from my ability to materially support myself and loved ones (i was raised that way in fact…not to say that raising me that way had a “successful” result), then it becomes very difficult to accept the encroachment of anyone else upon the almost sole thing which gives me pride.

I feel like I am kinda rambling, but I guess the main point here is that many men do not want success in order to be worthy in the eyes of a woman, but to be worthy in the eyes of themselves

16

I know most of you men and women like to ‘philosophize’ about the issue. However I’ve clearly given evidence that the differences are hardwired and in no way influenced by cultura influences. So please for the sake of a constructive discussion (and only this time for it’s not really philosophical discussion) provide proof to strengthen your opinion (or thinking.)

Making real life analysis will get me nowhere (unless it would be in a large scale).

I’m hoping for a reply from molelove and others of course.

17

As to the why our brains are wired the way they are… I do not submit this is absolute proof, merely another theory like sooo many others in Evolutionary Science.

xs4all.nl/~sas2/cacdba/thematingmind.htm

Just a theory, but it accords well with what I was posting before it was ignored.

I didn’t want to really have to argue all the theories concerning mating and evolution and the its impact on individual human beings and society. In fact, this post will conclude any more arguments from me. This is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don’t positions where I feel i am either advocating some form of sexist belief or attacking an organized religion. I will take the easy way out. Darwin made me do it. :sunglasses:

So, as to not insult the accomplishments AIM’s father, or Molelove, or Hadj’s religion, I again assert that true justice is equality of opportunity ( it is blind to differences ((whether they be innate or imagined))). And with that, I ask you to consider…
If mating or the search for a suitable mate is one of, if not the primary drive for a living being, and by some incredible circumstance one species should happen to develop Civilization, it is not unfair to ask one to consider what effect the drive towards securing a mate might produce.

Another odd little study to throw in there, not related really, but interesting.
newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994691

And that, my friends, is all from me, folks.

18

You hit the hammer right on the nail. Napoleon Hill wrote about this and I fully agree, this is a prime factor that drives male behavior. And this psychological difference between men and females is another distinction between the sexs.

In my opinion the real distinctions between males and females are their psychological drives.

19

On the contrary, I think the theory of evolution plays a role in women developing interests that used to be considered more masculine by their ancestors. It should be noted that human male and female brains are changing from how they used to be. Female brains may be adapting to the new circumstances in which they may not just want to, but have to be the bread winner.

20

actually, in early ages, woman used to bring in at least as much, or more food than men
men did the hunting, yes… and brought with that necessary eggwhites and stuff that was in teh meat
however, it’s not so that men got the bread on the table, it was actually the woman who did

and, frankly… woman are generally still more capable of running a household than men, no?

i think they have certain talents that make them different, yet equally valuable as men, and… honestly, how many of us men would get around with absolutely no woman?

not many i think,
the greatest mind of the 20th century, einstein, would have wandered completely lost if it weren’t for his wife…

we are different, no doubt, but saying woman should stay at home because they are no bread winners? i think, for example, a healthy company has both woman and men at strategic places…

but of course, i may be wrong :wink:

willem